longevity of Tibetan masters

[j.fachao]

Dear Bums,

 

It might not be the best place to post this, but I think that some valuable Buddhists bums are in this registered here and can help. So please Taobums, accept my apologies.

 

It seems to me that Tibetan masters don't have a life span superior to the average people although they have mastered the yogic practices of their tradition.

 

Please don't read my post as a way of suggesting that Tibetan yogic practices are inferior to Taoists..I have high respect for both! _/\_

 

Am I making an error?

 

If not, I am wondering whether it could be linked to the nature/aim of their yogic practice:

- more directed at spiritual realizations than physical longevity?

- taxing the physical level to nourish the spiritual level?

 

Can anyone here share some insights about it?

 

Thanks

Fachao

 

edited to clarify the content of my post and correct the wording

Edited December 27, 2010 by j.fachao

[devoid]

Hi j.fachao,

 

For many taoists, longevity is not necessarily about whether to attain 80, 100 or more years of age, but about being mentally and physically fit until death. For several taoist masters, however, the real question is about being mentally fit enough to mastering immortality and perhaps make a good transition after death and thereafter being able to come back and help fix things for the better, if necessary.

 

Although I can't say I am really into the Tibetan tradition myself, my view on it is that there is more emphasis on breaking the wheel of reincarnation than the above suggested goal of Taoist Longevity, i.e. escaping being born again rather than longevity in itself. On a side note, I have observed more dogmatism and ritual in the Tibetan Book of the Dead than in any taoist readings I have come across.

[ben]

Tibetan Buddhist were not renowned for there longevity. Longevity is not noted among the tulkus like the Panchen Lama, Karmapa Lama, Dalai Lama, Sakya Pandita and others. A lot of lamas seem physically very frail, some required help just to walk such as Dilgo Khyentse.

 

However, in the Nyingmapa sect of Tibetan Buddhism there exits teachings that originated with a semi-historical figure called Garab Dorje, what was known in Tibet as Dzogchen. The early masters of this tradition achieved long lives through the realization of the natural state. Indeed the teacher of Namkhai Norbu, Changchub Dorje, supposedly achieved the rainbow body at the age of 170!

 

 

I have dipped my toes in Tibetan Buddhism over the years, personally it is the Buddhism that I most strongly resonate with, I really feel a conection with the mahasidddha lineage. But I always come back to Taoist practises, I am not interested in spiritual development at the expense of health. I have never looked at my body as just a 'bag of meat and bones'.

 

Ben

[Sunya]

I have never looked at my body as just a 'bag of meat and bones'.

 

 

Me neither That view is the 'Hinayana' view which is used in Theravada schools because they are all about cutting attachment to this world. But the Tantric view (and Dzogchen as well) views the body as sacred. It is a perfect vessel for enlightenment and has been earned for lifetimes of good karma accumulation. We should honor this body, take care of it, because it is the perfect vessel for us to become enlightened.

 

So, I'm not really sure where you got the idea that you should forsake health for spiritual enlightenment.

[Vajrahridaya]

Tibetan Buddhist were not renowned for there longevity. Longevity is not noted among the tulkus like the Panchen Lama, Karmapa Lama, Dalai Lama, Sakya Pandita and others. A lot of lamas seem physically very frail, some required help just to walk such as Dilgo Khyentse.

 

However, in the Nyingmapa sect of Tibetan Buddhism there exits teachings that originated with a semi-historical figure called Garab Dorje, what was known in Tibet as Dzogchen. The early masters of this tradition achieved long lives through the realization of the natural state. Indeed the teacher of Namkhai Norbu, Changchub Dorje, supposedly achieved the rainbow body at the age of 170!

 

 

I have dipped my toes in Tibetan Buddhism over the years, personally it is the Buddhism that I most strongly resonate with, I really feel a conection with the mahasidddha lineage. But I always come back to Taoist practises, I am not interested in spiritual development at the expense of health. I have never looked at my body as just a 'bag of meat and bones'.

 

Ben

 

There are many Tibetan Masters that lived hundreds or even thousands of years, but they are not the type to teach tons of disciples, because this creates karmic connections, as broken samayas harms the teachings physical energy as well. So, generally those teachers that have tons of students don't live all that long, at least not longer than normal as they are connected to to many people with normal karmas. But, if you want to know about those Tibetan masters that transcend normality of any type? They are hard to find and always live very secluded lives and only give teachings to very, very few, very highly developed yogis who won't abuse a single drop of the teachings offered. As, karma is karma and connection is connection.

 

There are plenty of long, long lived Vajrayana masters, they just aren't in the limelight and they are talked about with hushed voices only to those ready. But, there are mentions of some in various Autobiographies from current to recently passed on Tibetan Masters.

[Vajrahridaya]

Me neither That view is the 'Hinayana' view which is used in Theravada schools because they are all about cutting attachment to this world. But the Tantric view (and Dzogchen as well) views the body as sacred. It is a perfect vessel for enlightenment and has been earned for lifetimes of good karma accumulation. We should honor this body, take care of it, because it is the perfect vessel for us to become enlightened.

 

So, I'm not really sure where you got the idea that you should forsake health for spiritual enlightenment.

 

Well, really the dharma teaching is all about enlightenment anyway... as longevity is attained by the enlightened one who is conscious from birth to birth in whatever realm anyway.

 

But, when you get into the more refined Vajrayana teachings, you get a glimpse of how it is possible through various contemplations and practices to elongate ones life indefinitely, but really only through seclusion, and not damaging ones auric field by connecting to deeply with the normal masses.

 

Generally great masters get a deep feeling to just teach normal people instead of elongate their physical existence, because they've completely transcended the fear of death anyway and would rather give their energy to teaching the masses, than just staying physically alive for an indefinite amount of time.

[j.fachao]

Hi all,

 

Thank you for your answers.

 

@Vajrahridaya

Your post is very interesting. Something to ponder over..

 

Best wishes,

Fachao

 

 

 

Well, really the dharma teaching is all about enlightenment anyway... as longevity is attained by the enlightened one who is conscious from birth to birth in whatever realm anyway.

 

But, when you get into the more refined Vajrayana teachings, you get a glimpse of how it is possible through various contemplations and practices to elongate ones life indefinitely, but really only through seclusion, and not damaging ones auric field by connecting to deeply with the normal masses.

 

Generally great masters get a deep feeling to just teach normal people instead of elongate their physical existence, because they've completely transcended the fear of death anyway and would rather give their energy to teaching the masses, than just staying physically alive for an indefinite amount of time.

[ralis]

There are many Tibetan Masters that lived hundreds or even thousands of years,

 

I can't believe intelligent people believe this. This lies in the realm of myth and can never be proven. Two friends of mine that are devout Tibetan Buddhists, hiked all over Tibet and Nepal looking for these people and found nothing. Even with inside information they found nothing.

[Jetsun]

Has anyone ever actually met a Taoist who lived to abnormal old age?

[Guest sykkelpump]

I can't believe intelligent people believe this. This lies in the realm of myth and can never be proven. Two friends of mine that are devout Tibetan Buddhists, hiked all over Tibet and Nepal looking for these people and found nothing. Even with inside information they found nothing.

 

Intelligent people dont belive belive it either.But on this forum people belive pretty much whatever you say,especially if you claim to be a high level teacher

[Guest sykkelpump]

..

Edited December 28, 2010 by sykkelpump

[ralis]

Intelligent people dont belive belive it either.But on this forum people belive pretty much whatever you say,especially if you claim to be a high level teacher

 

Maybe the intelligence is in question and should be replaced with gullibility.

 

The problem is that of Westerners believing anything that is exotic and mysterious. Legend and lore play large in the minds of the gullible.

Edited December 28, 2010 by ralis

[henro]

[ben]

Im open to the idea that there are masters who lived long lives through yogic practises. My goals for longevity are a little bit more down to earth, robust health right into old age - which is why I practise Tai Chi.

 

I think living for a long long time in our current society would drive me insane, a dark room retreat might be a good way to start.

 

Over on Micheal Winns web site, he has a photo of a taoist adept's self preserving body that was being kept in a air tight glass box; apparently the taoist was 130 when he left this plane but his body stayed up right for years afterwards.

 

Ben.

[Vajrahridaya]

I can't believe intelligent people believe this. This lies in the realm of myth and can never be proven. Two friends of mine that are devout Tibetan Buddhists, hiked all over Tibet and Nepal looking for these people and found nothing. Even with inside information they found nothing.

 

Oh, I'm ralis!! I'm so intelligent!! I only believe what I've directly experienced and I have no openness towards anything other than my myopic box of karmic baggage! I'm soooo smart!

:lol:

 

 

Well, ChNNR believes this stuff... I guess that goes to show that you are not a student of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Which I've understood since I've first met you. You are a student of your own musings and egoic experiences.

 

I wonder why you even bother?

[Vajrahridaya]

Maybe the intelligence is in question and should be replaced with gullibility.

 

The problem is that of Westerners believing anything that is exotic and mysterious. Legend and lore play large in the minds of the gullible.

 

Actually ralis,

 

I've had direct experiences of how one can contemplate the radiance's of the elements and experience nourishment directly through this contemplation. I've experienced the dissolution of density, directly.

 

So, gullibility is not really what we are talking about here. Also, it has nothing to do with being Western or Eastern in this sense as plenty of people of the East have experiences that lead them to believe that it is possible to transcend the level of life that the masses such as you cling to as hard truth.

 

Also, I guess you don't believe those posts about that Indian man who was tested in a closed environment on the validity of his claim that he just doesn't eat. They found that he actually didn't eat.

 

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

For someone who claims such superior intelligence as you ralis, you sure are a pretty limited thinker. Which is reflected by your lack of yogic experience. As what you say and how you share is a revelation of this lack.

 

You should consider how closed and limited your personal experience is, as it's based merely on the memory of this life, first of all. It is also based upon the very few people that you have met and known, as well as the culture you grew up in, and the very few books you have read. I mean very limited in the sense that there are a vast amount of books in so many languages and so many cultures and so many people on planet Earth, and even those that connect through popular culture and television, is a limited amount of people.

 

Just because these people went looking for these yogis in the caves. Doesn't mean these yogis wanted to be found by these people. Yogis of this level are highly sensitive and can know through psychic power when someone is coming. Even I can do this, with my very limited level of yogic power. Even thugs on the street have psychic powers that they use to avoid the police, you have no idea... obviously.

 

So these cave yogis of such high caliber must have such a level of clairvoyance that you probably wouldn't even consider possible, but is.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

[Vajrahridaya]

Im open to the idea that there are masters who lived long lives through yogic practises. My goals for longevity are a little bit more down to earth, robust health right into old age - which is why I practise Tai Chi.

 

I think living for a long long time in our current society would drive me insane, a dark room retreat might be a good way to start.

 

Over on Micheal Winns web site, he has a photo of a taoist adept's self preserving body that was being kept in a air tight glass box; apparently the taoist was 130 when he left this plane but his body stayed up right for years afterwards.

 

Ben.

 

That's awesome Ben, I admire your dedication.

[Gerard]

...Just because these people went looking for these yogis in the caves. Doesn't mean these yogis wanted to be found by these people. Yogis of this level are highly sensitive and can know through psychic power when someone is coming...

 

That's better. I can vouch for that, for sure. And not just coming nearby much further and ahead of time. They will only reveal themselves to those spiritually realised, and that can be sensed as well, miles away, even through a computer screen.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Gerard

[Vajrahridaya]

That's better. I can vouch for that, for sure. And not just coming nearby much further and ahead of time. They will only reveal themselves to those spiritually realised, and that can be sensed as well, miles away, even through a computer screen.

 

Yes, indeed! I will also continue to work on my ego... as promised Gerard.

 

My wife is very good and pointing it out to me.

[ralis]

Actually ralis,

 

I've had direct experiences of how one can contemplate the radiance's of the elements and experience nourishment directly through this contemplation. I've experienced the dissolution of density, directly.

 

So, gullibility is not really what we are talking about here. Also, it has nothing to do with being Western or Eastern in this sense as plenty of people of the East have experiences that lead them to believe that it is possible to transcend the level of life that the masses such as you cling to as hard truth.

 

Also, I guess you don't believe those posts about that Indian man who was tested in a closed environment on the validity of his claim that he just doesn't eat. They found that he actually didn't eat.

 

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

For someone who claims such superior intelligence as you ralis, you sure are a pretty limited thinker. Which is reflected by your lack of yogic experience. As what you say and how you share is a revelation of this lack.

 

You should consider how closed and limited your personal experience is, as it's based merely on the memory of this life, first of all. It is also based upon the very few people that you have met and known, as well as the culture you grew up in, and the very few books you have read. I mean very limited in the sense that there are a vast amount of books in so many languages and so many cultures and so many people on planet Earth, and even those that connect through popular culture and television, is a limited amount of people.

 

Just because these people went looking for these yogis in the caves. Doesn't mean these yogis wanted to be found by these people. Yogis of this level are highly sensitive and can know through psychic power when someone is coming. Even I can do this, with my very limited level of yogic power. Even thugs on the street have psychic powers that they use to avoid the police, you have no idea... obviously.

 

So these cave yogis of such high caliber must have such a level of clairvoyance that you probably wouldn't even consider possible, but is.

 

 

You have no idea of what books I have read or what my experiences are! It seems your superior realization and knowledge serves you well! The acquisition of such lofty states must give you a sense of blissful sublime joy, while demeaning the teachings I have received from Norbu.

Edited December 29, 2010 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

You have no idea of what books I have read or what my experiences are! It seems your superior realization and knowledge serves you well! The acquisition of such lofty states must give you a sense of blissful sublime joy, while demeaning the teachings I have received from Norbu.

 

You haven't received teachings from Norbu, as he believes in things entirely different what you have stated on this forum in replys to me. You've been to Norbu teachings and you received solidification's for your own ideas and projections, but that's it.

 

Also, my point was not to state what you have read, but that it is limited and to limit your openness to these limitations is well... limiting. It's also dogmatic, in a different sense than religious.

 

What I mean by limited is that even if you've read thousands of books, that is a small drop in the history of books.

[ralis]

You haven't received teachings from Norbu, as he believes in things entirely different what you have stated on this forum in replys to me. You've been to Norbu teachings and you received solidification's for your own ideas and projections, but that's it.

 

 

 

You are calling me a liar? It matters not!

[Vajrahridaya]

You are calling me a liar? It matters not!

 

No, I know that you were there in front of Norbu, but the things you say do not reflect his teachings as expressed in his books, the talks I've been to, and what others who have been with him for decades have to say about his teachings.

 

I'm not talking about things that are up for interpretation either, but specifics. Including the belief in the ability to elongate your life indefinitely through secluded practice. He talks about such masters in "Crystal and the Way of Light." A book he wrote for popular consumption. Not to mention the books you are only allowed access to after various transmissions and initiations.

 

Your beliefs just don't line up at all ralis.

 

Which is why I say that you only saw in Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche what you wanted to see, and that's it.

[ralis]

 

Also, my point was not to state what you have read, but that it is limited and to limit your openness to these limitations is well... limiting. It's also dogmatic, in a different sense than religious.

 

 

 

What are you trying to say? Makes no sense!