[TTC Study] Chapter 14 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[Apech]

I can only comment that it is talking about the central realization of the nature of Tao - and it's interesting, in view of discussion on Ch. 8 that it says follow it and you can't see it's back ... so 'follow' is a way of speaking and not some kind of instruction ... if you see what I mean.

[manitou]

It really is like trying to chase a wisp of smoke to try and comment on this chapter, lol.

 

Let's hear it for Nothingness.

[manitou]

19. To manage the things of the present,

20. And to know the ancient beginning.

21. This is called the beginning of the thread of the Way.

 

 

Comments?

 

Yes, I think upon second reflection I can squeeze a comment out. 'To manage the things of the present, and to know the ancient beginning, this is called the beginning of the thread of the Way.'

 

 

The more we read, study, discuss, learn, the more it seems to revert to the ancient knowledge. It's as though mankind was evolved with everything he needed at his disposal, including earth magik, but through 'progress' we have lost the beginnings. There are those of us who are seeking the beginnings again, and Know that we are getting very close indeed. So once we have picked up the thread of the Way, this takes us back to the ancient beginnings in our understanding. All we need do now is take one day at a time and do 'as the Sage would do' to the best of our abilities, if we are indeed seeking upward evolution.

 

I have a sense that the ancient tribes knew that they were all One. I'll just bet they huddled together for healings at the very beginning - the combined energy would have run rampant. Might be as the concept of medicine men (and ego, of course) started to enter their consciousness, they began to lose the original essense and power of the communal. They gave the power to another. This is purely my conjecture.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Marblehead]

... if you see what I mean.

 

Yep. I see what you mean.

[Marblehead]

It really is like trying to chase a wisp of smoke to try and comment on this chapter, lol.

 

Let's hear it for Nothingness.

 

Yep, Chuang Tzu realized that a long time ago. Of course, with smoke we have a few advantages. Not so with Tao.

[Marblehead]

All we need do now is take one day at a time and do 'as the Sage would do' to the best of our abilities, if we are indeed seeking upward evolution.

 

I'm glad you mentioned this. I speak to this concept often.

[Marblehead]

Hi Simple_Jack,

 

Valid comment, I think.

 

For myself, it was only after I had my first "Taoist" experience that I read the TTC and I really didn't 'get it' until after I read Chuang Tzu and then went back and read the TTC.

 

There are many paradoxes in Lao Tzu's writings where if we read only at the surface level we miss what he was saying but if we go deeper we understand that what he was saying is true.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 14

14

1. 視之不見,名曰夷。

2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。

3. 摶之不得,名曰微。

4. 此三者不可致詰，

5. 故混而為一。

6. 其上不皦，

7. 其下不昧，

8. 繩繩不可名，

9. 復歸於無物。

10.是謂無狀之狀，

11.無物之象，

12.是謂惚恍。

13.迎之不見其首，

14.隨之不見其後。

15.執古之道以御今之有。

16.能知古始，

17.是謂道紀。

 

Translated in terse English...

1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless.

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.

3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless.

4. These three objects blended in one.

5. Its top not brilliant.

6. Its bottom nor dim.

7. Its continuance unnameable.

8. Returned to being nothingness(state of invisibility),

9. Is called form of no form.

10. An image of nothingness,

11. Is called obscure.

11. Greet it cannot see its head.

13. Follow it cannot see its back.

14. Grasp the presence of Tao,

15. Driven all the present physical being

16. Able to understand the ancient origin,

17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

Edited January 8, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

[zerostao]

i like this version and today it awe inspires me once again,

 

that which you look at but cannot see

is called the invisable.

that which you listen to but cannot hear

is called the inaudible.

that which you grasp but cannot hold

is called the unfathomomable.

 

none of these three can be inquired after,

hence they blend into one.

above no light can make it lighter,

beneath no darkness can make it darker.

unceasingly it continues

but is impossible to be defined.

again it returns to nothingness.

 

thus it is described as the form of the formless,

the image of the imageless.

hence it is called evasive.

 

it is met with but no one sees its face;

it is followed but no one sees its back.

 

to hold the tao of old,

to deal with the affairs at hand,

in order to understand the primordial beginnings,

that is called the rule of Tao

 

i mean really,

[Marblehead]

Yes, nice, although I would have liked to see the word "Way" in place of "rule" in the last line.

[zerostao]

Yes, nice, although I would have liked to see the word "Way" in place of "rule" in the last line.

 

 

i have to agree with you. but then it would just be too perfect

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hi people

 

I would like to point out some things about Chapter 14.

 

Considering the following chapter, 15, speaks about the unfathomability of the illusive sage, and Dao, I think it is important to note that the frequent appearance of 名曰= name, spoken

 

Common translations appear as this:

 

 

1. 視之不見,名曰夷。

LOOK at it but you cannot see it!

Its name is Formless.

2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。

Listen to it but you cannot hear it!

Its name is Soundless.

3. 摶之不得,名曰微。

Grasp it but you cannot get it!

Its name is Incorporeal.

 

However,

名曰夷... 夷=barbarians, to tear down; to raze [, war]

Why translate this as: "Its name is Formless"?

 

名曰希... 希= rare; hope, expect, strive for (something crossed on a fabric, perhaps as "I want this")

Why translate this as: "Its name is Soundless"?

 

名曰微... 微= incredibly small/micro

Why translate this as: "Its name is Incorporeal."?

 

名曰 = name, spoken

 

I think the reason these words are translated as such is that translators don't know what to make of them in these sentences/contexts. so they just omit the meaning and relate them to "look, listen, and grasp" as appears in their sentences preceding.

 

This pretty much throws off the entire chapter and [part of] it's connection to chapter 15, in my opinion. Those translations show the attributes of the Dao, but they do not show the way that this relates to the Way of the Sage.

 

How does it show the Way of the sage?

 

名 is translated as "name" but it actually means "rank or status." Why? it is a mouth under the moon. Still confused, right?

 

名 is “spoken under moonlight”according to Rose Quong, “when in the dark, one can only go by reputation.”

 

So 名曰 is "status/reputation spoken"

 

Now consider (my translation):

 

 

01 視之不見:

Looking at it is not seeing it

 

02 名曰夷;

reputation spoken is like violence 夷

 

 

03 聽之不聞:

Listening to it, one does not hear

 

04 名曰希;

reputation spoken is only wishful 希

 

05 摶之不得:

bō zhī bù dé:

Mulling it about, rolling it around in the hands, is not to obtain it

 

06 名曰微。

Reputation spoken is insignificant 微

 

 

The rest of the chapter is a continuation of this same lesson, showing how the Sage "does not leave a trace."

 

 

Okay, so that seems to make sense, but does it work with the context?

 

Here are the first lines of Chapter 15 (Feng & English translation):

 

"The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.

The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable.

[深不可識 = depth, not, able, recognize]

Because it is unfathomable,

All we can do is describe their appearance."

 

That's all I can say about it for now....

Edited September 1, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

Well, let's look at it:

 

Looking at it is not seeing it

reputation spoken is like violence

Listening to it, one does not hear

reputation spoken is only wishful

Mulling it about, rolling it around in the hands, is not to obtain it

Reputation spoken is insignificant

 

Wouldn't this require a lot of footnoting in order to clarify what is being said?

 

We are speaking of unmanifest Tao, are we not? To make it without physical substance is pretty close to being unmanifest.

 

This equates well, for me, with the Sage being present but few, if any, know he is even there.

 

To walk and leave no footprints is one of the attributes of a Sage - to do without doing. A miracle!!!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yes, there would be some footnotes needed for people comparing to other translations etc., but it makes perfect sense as the chapter continues, in my opinion. Seems to me that much of the Dao De Jing speaks of Dao and the Sage in the same descriptions. So the normal translation focuses on the Dao, though to me it seems like this is actually the more subtle teaching, at least in Chapter 14.

[Marblehead]

Indeed, we state in Chapter 1 that the Tao that is spoken of is not the eternal Tao (Use whatever words you like to say this.)

 

So it is the "pure man", a physical manifestation, that we can talk about. The pure man may also be a Sage. We can talk about the attributes of a person (and Lao Tzu does that).

 

I know that there are many who like to link the Chapters of the TTC with the times and culture of the Chinese, hoping for a better, more thorough understanding. And that there are those who wish to link the Chapters to make it appear to be more like a novel.

 

Me? I am after the concepts however I can get them I try to listen to everyone and then use what I find useful.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I should add:

 

another reason why I'm seeing it like this is that in chapter six when saying "it is called" this was said "是謂, indeed, called\it is called" and also at the end of chapter 10 "indeed 是謂 called mysterious De\virtue.

 

Plus, at the end of chapter 14:

 

是謂道紀。

Indeed, called Dào's history.

 

So this makes me ask, as well, how "名曰" might mean something other than the commonly appearing "it is called" also when Lao Tze uses 名 in Chapter One as the "name which is not the eternal name."

 

So one might say that in chapter 14 the "names" are starting to appear, but still, I must beg to differ on perception of the text. Though I think for the most part, whatever one gets from the words can be of import and value to them.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

Good points. Actually, in my understanding, nearly everything we talk about regarding Tao is actually Te.

 

The mysterous Te is, IMO, only those things we do not yet understand. But then, we should not strive to know everything, should we? Where would the mystery be after that? Would we even still have a functional brain anymore?

 

In my understanding, established names appear only in the manifest, Yo, while in Wu (the Mystery) we can use names to identify what we are talking about but understand that the names we place are only for our own use and have nothing to do with defining what it is we are talking about.

 

And I agree, the TTC is all about what we get out of it that may be helpful in our living our life to its fullest potential.

 

However, if all we get are misunderstandings then we might actually be more confused after reading it than we were before reading it. To me, this is one of the most important reason to have forums such as this one - so we can talk about our understandings and share them with others.

 

Of course, I always leave the technical stuff to you folks who can read the Chinese language.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

All good points, MH.

 

"However, if all we get are misunderstandings then we might actually be more confused after reading it than we were before reading it."

 

For me personally, I check other translations to see what I might be missing when getting something fairly different, but usually I find the potentially confusing specifics reveal the broader meanings as well as the broad revealed the specific too. When this is the case, I'm not too worried about what all the others said, since it seems they based off each other a lot of the time anyways. Plus, my interest in this personal rather than commercial, so if it makes sense to me and me only... cool..

[dawei]

I should add:

 

another reason why I'm seeing it like this is that in chapter six when saying "it is called" this was said "是謂, indeed, called\it is called" and also at the end of chapter 10 "indeed 是謂 called mysterious De\virtue.

 

Plus, at the end of chapter 14:

 

是謂道紀。

Indeed, called Dào's history.

 

So this makes me ask, as well, how "名曰" might mean something other than the commonly appearing "it is called" also when Lao Tze uses 名 in Chapter One as the "name which is not the eternal name."

 

So one might say that in chapter 14 the "names" are starting to appear, but still, I must beg to differ on perception of the text. Though I think for the most part, whatever one gets from the words can be of import and value to them.

One issue is that 名曰 is a common formula in pre-han to mean "it is called", "it is named", "named as", etc

 

While I agree with your basic idea on why you questioned it, I also think that the entire text may not be written down by the same scribe and we see some different phrases used for the same idea.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

One issue is that 名曰 is a common formula in pre-han to mean "it is called", "it is named", "named as", etc

 

While I agree with your basic idea on why you questioned it, I also think that the entire text may not be written down by the same scribe and we see some different phrases used for the same idea.

 

Yes, this makes sense, as there are like 6 different ways to write "can \ cannot" as well.

 

Though, the two ways of "it is called" are used in the same chapter here. Not that this is by any means the only reason I question, but just one more detail that helps me to think that maybe it is not merely saying "it is called" but more literally "reputation spoken."

 

Really, my main reason for thinking it is "reputation spoken" is the rest of the chapter, and the chapter following.

 

Here is the rest of Ch.14 according to Legge:

 

note that I'm saying the chapter is more specific to a person, teaching the way of the Sage. I don't have my resources with me, but there were many other details that spoke towards "no reputation" or "leaving no trace" sort of "leaving the trace of no-trace." This could be deduced in general, but the first paragraph makes it more plain, imo, by "reputation spoken."

 

Its upper part is not bright, and its lower part is not obscure.

Ceaseless in its action, it yet cannot be named, and then it again

returns and becomes nothing. This is called the Form of the Formless,

and the Semblance of the Invisible; this is called the Fleeting and

Indeterminable.

 

We meet it and do not see its Front; we follow it, and do not see

its Back. When we can lay hold of the Tao of old to direct the things

of the present day, and are able to know it as it was of old in the

beginning, this is called (unwinding) the clue of Tao.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

Yes, this makes sense, as there are like 6 different ways to write "can \ cannot" as well.

 

Though, the two ways of "it is called" are used in the same chapter here. Not that this is by any means the only reason I question, but just one more detail that helps me to think that maybe it is not merely saying "it is called" but more literally "reputation spoken."

Ah... I overlooked that point... I now want to look again at it closer.

[dawei]

Unable to read Chinese, I don't know how much Henricks added to the original but I really do like the last four lines of his translation because, for me, this is stating the bottom line regarding Taoist Philosophy:

 

18. Hold on to the Way of the present—

19. To manage the things of the present,

20. And to know the ancient beginning.

21. This is called the beginning of the thread of the Way.

We should keep in mind that Hendricks is using the older text... so you should be instead asking [rhetorically]: How much has Fu Xi, Heshang Gong, and Wang Bi added to the older text... and the answer is quite a bit and this chapter is a good example. And I think a good example of where to stick to the older text to get a better understanding for the chapter.