[TTC Study] Chapter 14 of the Tao Teh Ching

[rene]

dawei, if you dont mind saying, what are your thoughts about the Hendricks translation? tks.

[dawei]

I aligned the five texts side by side and can easily see where Fu Xi made changes to the Ma Wang Dui A and B which all later texts follow. There are some interesting changes and some which are a non-issue (simply a modernization in usage).

 

1. 名曰 - Ming (name) Yue (to call, to name, to say). This is in all the latter text but was originally as:

MWD A = 名之曰 - Ming (name) Zhi (of) Yue (to call, to name, to say)

MWD B = 命之曰 = Ming (fate) Zhi (of) Yue (to call, to name, to say)

 

While Ming and Ming are the same sound, and it was not uncommon to have phonetic loan words, it is interesting that Ming (fate) was used in pre-Han. Even ZZ uses this word formula but in most all cases it appears to simply mean the same as "to name" something. So it is like "this is named", as differentiated from, "this is called" (是謂). For me, this is enough proof to accept the meaning as carried forward in later texts; "To name" something.

 

2. The first interesting change is that the MWD versions have the last word different in Line 1 and 3; the later text reverse the word to the lines and what we see in almost every translation is NOT the oldest two texts. And the third line has the character different in the three groups and in MWD B it is De (Dao virtue). It seems Fuxi took some liberty to try and clean up the lines.

 

MWD A:

視之而弗見名之曰微

聽之而弗聞名之曰希

昏之而弗得名之曰夷

 

MWD B:

 

視之而弗見□之曰微

聽之而弗聞命之曰希

德昏之而弗得命之曰夷

 

Fu Xi, Heshang Gong, Wang Bi:

視之不見名曰夷。

聽之不聞名曰希。

搏之不得名曰微。

 

3. The middle section has differences which can be seen by looking at the Hendrick's translation, particularly lines 9-11.

[dawei]

dawei, if you dont mind saying, what are your thoughts about the Hendricks translation? tks.

I have gone from liking Hendricks to simply appreciating what he has done for the older texts as he is one of the very few who has translated the Guodian and MWD versions. I have both of those books and they are indispensable for studying and comparing the versions.

 

I tend to think he sticks more towards book definitions with an eye towards the kind of scholarly and sinology sense one would expect of a guy in his position of translation classical chinese... but I am not sure he "feels" the text, like say Feng does. Look at how he ends one of the most important chapters: "This is called the beginning of the thread of the Way." That is as awkward as it gets... You might of noticed my word choice in translation tries to evoke the meaning more than a dictionary would.

 

I would need to look closer at MWD versions to see how I would translate it, but I will say this: His notes on this chapter are good and shows he sees that the older texts has something to offer which the later texts loses; particularly in lines 9-11 and 18-21.

[yiming]

dawei, if you dont mind saying, what are your thoughts about the Hendricks translation? tks.

 

Well, the man has said it.

What do you think?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Dawei,

 

Thanks for your help with this. Seems the question was justified enough at least to make you go and check it out further, so I guess I'm not completely gone.

 

I noticed too, in the MWD versions, that 弗 (barbarian, war) is used sort of as a negation

(word for word:)

 

 

視之而弗見, 名之曰微

Observing it causes 弗 not seeing, it's name called insignificantly small

視之而弗見, □之曰微

(same meaning)

 

聽之而弗聞, 名之曰希

Listen to it cause not hearing, the name is called wishful [edit: can also mean "rare"]

MWD2=聽之而弗聞, 命之曰希

Listen to it cause not hearing, by fate/destiny called wishful

 

昏之而弗得, 名之曰夷

Dusk/nighfall/unclear it causes 弗 not obtain, the name called 弗 negation

MWD2=德昏之而弗得, 命之曰夷

德De/Virtue 昏kept hidden (?) causes not acquired, destined/fated to be spoken 夷 not

 

the MWD 1 and 2 here are basically the same until the last line.

 

 

Once again though, "the name is called wishful" doesn't make much sense here, though I can see why Henricks uses the other meaning "rare/rareified" instead.

 

And "De/Virtue 昏obscured/kept hidden results in not acquire (or become complacent), destined/fated to be spoken 夷 not"

 

Sorry for the choppy sentences there, but it seems like " 得 obtain" might also mean to imply part of it's word meaning "complacent" much as "命 destiny" seems to imply the part of it's word meaning "command" as in "commands the expression as..."

 

So the last line might best read "Virtue kept hidden results in non-complacence (aquisition [of surface reputation]), destined/commanded to be not spoken."

 

Really, all of this, though at first after your replies I was a bit more "okay, I guess I missed this", it now only seems to be confirming for me everything I was saying... lol..

 

Even for Henricks, it looks to me like he had to reach a bit to come to:

 

1. We look at it but do not see it;

2. We name this "the minute."

3. We listen to it but do not hear it;

4. We name this "the rarefied."

5. We touch it but do not hold it;

6. We name this "the level and smooth."

 

It looks like he had to omit "德昏 De/Virtue obscured" in order to make sense out his translation. To me, this is an error. Especially a concept as central to Lao Tzu's philosphy as 德昏.

 

Now, after all that, lol, you mentioned how lines 9 - 11 were different in the MWD.

 

This would be (MWD):

者亓上不謬, 亓下不忽尋.

"it height is not erronneously 謬exaggerated, it lowness in not frantically sought."

 

Henricks wrote:

 

"One"—there is nothing more encompassing above it,

And nothing smaller below it.

 

Come on! He just dropped the implication of "謬 exaggeration, speak-wind, erroneous" and "忽尋 frantically sought" in this sentence to avoid confusing discontinuity.

 

In my opinin, none of these words need to be omitted if one translates these lines to show how they speak about reputation, which by the way, is a central concept in Chapters 13 and 15 (we're talking about Chapter 14, in case anyone forgot.....)!

 

 

I hope this has been at least an enjoyable read. It has been an enjoyable effort!

Edited September 2, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[yiming]

So, after this exhaustive scholarly discussion on the shape, texture, size and different shades of this animal, can we get to the point? Or should I ask, is there a point to this at all?

[ChiDragon]

yiming...

Leave them alone and let it be.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Oh and fogot to mention also about name/reputation pictured as mouth/moon as mentioned in OP. Then compare to "virtue obscured = De, dusk" This seems to enhance the meaning in this direction as well.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I enjoyed reading the discussion. Thanks guys!!!

[ChiDragon]

You Welcome....!!!!

[dawei]

So, after this exhaustive scholarly discussion on the shape, texture, size and different shades of this animal, can we get to the point? Or should I ask, is there a point to this at all?

The title says it: Each chapter is a study. Some deeper than others. Thoughts and questions are welcomed about the text.

Edited September 2, 2012 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 14 Revised

14

1. 視之不見,名曰夷。

2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。

3. 摶之不得,名曰微。

4. 此三者不可致詰，

5. 故混而為一。

6. 其上不皦，

7. 其下不昧，

8. 繩繩不可名，

9. 復歸於無物。

10.是謂無狀之狀，

11.無物之象，

12.是謂惚恍。

13.迎之不見其首，

14.隨之不見其後。

15.執古之道以御今之有。

16.能知古始，

17.是謂道紀。

 

Translated in terse English...

1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless.

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.

3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless.

4. These three objects are impossible to cross-examine.

5. Thus they are blended into one.

6. Its top not brilliant.

7. Its bottom nor dim.

8. Its continuance unnameable.

9. Returned to being nothingness,

10. Is called form of no form.

11. An image of nothingness,

12. Is called obscure.

13. Greet it cannot see its head.

14. Follow it cannot see its back.

15. Grasp the past of Tao to be driven all the present physical beings

16. Able to understand the ancient origin,

17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

 

Note:

Revisions are shown in bold.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So, after this exhaustive scholarly discussion on the shape, texture, size and different shades of this animal, can we get to the point? Or should I ask, is there a point to this at all?

 

I, and some others, would like to know what was actually written in the text, so that we know what subtleties we might have missed by reading translations. The point for me or you or someone else is rarely the same thing, so you'll have to answer that for yourself.

[dawei]

Once again though, "the name is called wishful" doesn't make much sense here, though I can see why Henricks uses the other meaning "rare/rareified" instead.

希 = also can mean 'to become silent'

 

德 = this just seems out of place given the parallelism the opening three lines offer. I am certain Hendricks drops it due to such issues as he often comments to the structure of sentences, parallelism, and rhythm.

[ChiDragon]

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希 = also can mean 'to become silent'

It could be; but line 2 says all and it can stand by itself without any external definition.

2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

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希 = also can mean 'to become silent'

 

德 = this just seems out of place given the parallelism the opening three lines offer. I am certain Hendricks drops it due to such issues as he often comments to the structure of sentences, parallelism, and rhythm.

 

Hmm, yes it does seem out of place, but was it? is the question...

 

I think it says a bit that 名 "name (evening+mouth)" means reputation because "in the evening, when a man is not clearly seen he gives his name by word of mouth."(Rose Quong)

 

So

 

德昏之而弗得, 命之曰夷

德De/Virtue kept hidden [by the light of 昏evening] results in not 得 (moving to complacence = acquire), destined/fated to be spoken 夷 not.

 

or "Virtue kept hidden results in leaving the reward (the reward of virtue = reputation) behind, thus it (virtue/reputation) should (命 command) not be spoken."

Edited September 2, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

Chapter 14 Revised

4. These three objects are impossible to cross-examine.

5. Thus they are blended into one.

 

Note:

Revisions are shown in bold.

What about:

These three objects are impossible to measure (or immeasurable)

Their resulting mixture blends as one

 

I think there needs to be some logic between the mix/blend as one as opposed to when they are three; The three are beyond measure yet they come together as one.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It could be; but line 2 says all and it can stand by itself without any external definition.

2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.

 

Ha, yes, this does make sense too. Henricks used "rarefied" as "rare" is a common meaning, and rarefied means basically "kept esoteric" as in something not spoken/heard.

[dawei]

It could be; but line 2 says all and it can stand by itself without any external definition.

2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.

That works.

 

I was thinking along the lines of:

Listening without hearing [it], we name it silence.

[dawei]

Hmm, yes it does seem out of place, but was it? is the question...

I think it is a valid question. Just as later versions changed words for clarity it would also not be uncommon to add a word for clarity.

[ChiDragon]

Hmm, yes it does seem out of place, but was it? is the question...

Good show, it was out of place.

 

FYI...

Here is a good reference of the restored copy of the Tao Te Ching(MWD-A).

Please go to page 四四九（449）for Chapter 14.

 

捪之而弗得， 命之曰夷

 

Ref: Tao Te Ching MWD-A

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think it is a valid question. Just as later versions changed words for clarity it would also not be uncommon to add a word for clarity.

 

Thank you. Yes, it was in the second version of MWD, which had a few extra words like 命, likely, as you said, for more clarification.

 

For a text as profound as the Dao De Jing, I think these things are important. Like with the Yi Jing, a single word can point someone in the right direction if they are reading it from their Dao mind. For this reason, I find it relevant to include all of the original descriptive words...

[ChiDragon]

What about:

These three objects are impossible to measure (or immeasurable)

Their resulting mixture blends as one

 

I think there needs to be some logic between the mix/blend as one as opposed to when they are three; The three are beyond measure yet they come together as one.

 

I think your thinking is on the right track. However, the word "measure" does not quite fit for something that is invisible.

[ChiDragon]

Thank you. Yes, it was in the second version of MWD, which had a few extra words like 命, likely, as you said, for more clarification.

 

For a text as profound as the Dao De Jing, I think these things are important. Like with the Yi Jing, a single word can point someone in the right direction if they are reading it from their Dao mind. For this reason, I find it relevant to include all of the original descriptive words...

 

In classic, 命 is the same as saying 名(to name something or someone.)

 

 

PS....

This is one of the fundamentals has to be known before hand, in order, to understand the classic writing.

Edited September 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

In classic, 命 is the same as saying 名(to name something or someone.)

 

 

This much is obvious enough to see.

 

What is more interesting is why it was like this? and what might the answer to this tell us about the connotations involved in its use at the time? These connotations might create a thread of connections which lead to further understanding of the text, at a deeper level for some if they are interested in them as I am. To underestimate the depth and subtlety of the text will only be to the detriment of one's potential benefit from it, if they are open to learning beyond the obvious words..

Edited September 2, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness