[TTC Study] Chapter 14 of the Tao Teh Ching

[ChiDragon]

This much is obvious enough to see. What is more interesting is why it was like this? and what might the answer to this tell us about the connotations involved in its use at the time?

 

To give you a rough idea why it was so. You see, when something comes alive(有命). We give it a lively name(命名). Thus 命名 becomes to have a meaning of "give it a lively name". Sometimes 命 is short for 命名. Just follow this little logic and I hope it will help you to see how the Chinese thinking are.

 

I think for the same reason as in classic English. Isn't there any word was used in Classic English and not in use now....???

Edited September 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

This much is obvious enough to see. What is more interesting is why it was like this? and what might the answer to this tell us about the connotations involved in its use at the time? These connotations might create a thread of connections which lead to further understanding of the text, at a deeper level for some if they are interested in them as I am. To underestimate the depth and subtlety of the text will only be to the detriment of one's potential benefit from it, if they are open to learn beyond the words...

命 = 令 command from the mouth 口

[ChiDragon]

命 = 令 command from the mouth 口

 

Normally, 命令 are compound characters were to be meant "command".

[rene]

[...] I tend to think he sticks more towards book definitions with an eye towards the kind of scholarly and sinology sense one would expect of a guy in his position of translation classical chinese... but I am not sure he "feels" the text, like say Feng does. Look at how he ends one of the most important chapters: "This is called the beginning of the thread of the Way." That is as awkward as it gets... You might of noticed my word choice in translation tries to evoke the meaning more than a dictionary would. [...]

dawei, thanks for your take re Henricks. If the 'Feng' you refer to is Gia-Fu, there's an interesting side-story re the final edit of his DDJ which I'll share another time so as to not distract the topic. Thanks again, most appreciated. (-:

[et-thoughts]

Chapter 14 Revised

 

Translated in terse English...

1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless.

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.

3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless.

4. These three objects are impossible to cross-examine.

5. Thus they are blended into one.

6. Its top not brilliant.

7. Its bottom nor dim.

8. Its continuance unnameable.

9. Returned to being nothingness,

10. Is called form of no form.

11. An image of nothingness,

12. Is called obscure.

13. Greet it cannot see its head.

14. Follow it cannot see its back.

15. Grasp the past of Tao to be driven all the present physical beings

16. Able to understand the ancient origin,

17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

 

Note:

Revisions are shown in bold.

 

Did you know about the blind who see colors when hearing music... besides the three particular examples denote the same idea using three different language forms... probably intentionally done in hopes of one of them getting through and inducing the realization of the original idea...

 

The example I like to use is:

Karma

and eye for and eye

for every reaction there is and equal and opposite reaction

treat others as you would like to be treated

Balance of energy

I may be a bit off base here though considered important to mention what I did... hope others find why rather than ignoring it...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for the info there again, Chi and Dawei.

 

All the same, I think that the poetic possibilities in the words and paragraphs would depend largely on the symbolism of characters above and beyond their obvious meanings in the sentence. For example, chapter 14 has a subtle indication about both the actions of the Dao and the actions of the Sage in a way that is hinted at in its surrounding chapters, and perhaps as well in the way that the characters have a bit of "double entendre" in this chapter.

 

As mentioned, this double entendre is made more necessary to see by the use of certain words or phrases which otherwise seem "out of place" without seeing this double entendre. Some would prefer to say "no, those words don't belong there \ they were put there by mistake" but is this is a laughable attitude to have imo.

[yiming]

Indeed, we state in Chapter 1 that the Tao that is spoken of is not the eternal Tao (Use whatever words you like to say this.)

 

So it is the "pure man", a physical manifestation, that we can talk about. The pure man may also be a Sage. We can talk about the attributes of a person (and Lao Tzu does that).

 

I know that there are many who like to link the Chapters of the TTC with the times and culture of the Chinese, hoping for a better, more thorough understanding. And that there are those who wish to link the Chapters to make it appear to be more like a novel.

 

Me? I am after the concepts however I can get them I try to listen to everyone and then use what I find useful.

 

Sounds like scavenging to me. How's it going so far? Show me one thing you found that is useful, and I mean practically useful even if it has no relationship to the US Dollar.

[yiming]

Plus, my interest in this personal rather than commercial, so if it makes sense to me and me only... cool..

 

It is good to know that you are not commercially exploiting the Tao Te Ching like Flowing Hands who must be raking in a small fortune selling fa fus and performing exorcisms. I wonder why dawei is promoting Flowing Hands in this forum. Does he get a commission?

[yiming]

I, and some others, would like to know what was actually written in the text, so that we know what subtleties we might have missed by reading translations. The point for me or you or someone else is rarely the same thing, so you'll have to answer that for yourself.

 

I thought the study of the Tao Te Ching is a collective endeavor, each helping the other to find salvation for mankind. You are obviously not Chinese judging from your indivudalistic, selfish bent. You think that there is something in this for you and you only.

[dawei]

I think your thinking is on the right track. However, the word "measure" does not quite fit for something that is invisible.

Except that something which is invisible cannot be measured.

[dawei]

It is good to know that you are not commercially exploiting the Tao Te Ching like Flowing Hands who must be raking in a small fortune selling fa fus and performing exorcisms. I wonder why dawei is promoting Flowing Hands in this forum. Does he get a commission?

I don't think he gets any money from it... and no to the latter.

 

Please stick to the study aspect of the chapters and don't just troll. Thanks.

[yiming]

For a text as profound as the Dao De Jing, I think these things are important. Like with the Yi Jing, a single word can point someone in the right direction if they are reading it from their Dao mind. For this reason, I find it relevant to include all of the original descriptive words...

 

You study the I Ching too? That's impressive, even for a Chinese which you are not, unfortunately.

[dawei]

Hmm, yes it does seem out of place, but was it? is the question...

 

I think it says a bit that 名 "name (evening+mouth)" means reputation because "in the evening, when a man is not clearly seen he gives his name by word of mouth."(Rose Quong)

 

So

 

德昏之而弗得, 命之曰夷

德De/Virtue kept hidden [by the light of 昏evening] results in not 得 (moving to complacence = acquire), destined/fated to be spoken 夷 not.

 

or "Virtue kept hidden results in leaving the reward (the reward of virtue = reputation) behind, thus it (virtue/reputation) should (命 command) not be spoken."

You will be pleasantly surprised that I found a possible reason that De (德) was added to Hun (昏)...

 

Hun can mean dark, confused, chaos.... which may at first sight be understood as close in meaning to Xuan (玄), often translated as mystery.

 

There is a passage in Zhuang Zi, Heaven and Earth which states:

 

"That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness (昏), but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning) (玄德)" -- Tr. Legge

 

Thus, ZZ equated Hun with Xuan De.

 

The problem I run into is making sense of the line and keeping it parallel to the others. In the first three lines, the first word contrasts to the four-fifth word and their relationship is named in the eight word:

 

視之而弗見□之曰微 = See , Not See , Hidden

聽之而弗聞命之曰希 = Hear , Not Hear , Silent

[德]昏之而弗得命之曰夷 = Dark (mysterious De) Not obtained (or not harmony) , Even/Level/Smooth

 

Yi (夷) is also in chapters 41 and 53, so it's meaning can be inferred from there to stay consistent to its meaning in other chapters. In 41, Yi is contrasted with uneven. In 53, Dao is said to be Yi...

 

So it would seem that Yi should carry a positive meaning but to not obtain [harmony] from mysterious De would be negative.

 

It is clear to me that this last line would cause problems in understanding and why latter versions changed the first word and the last word, and then worked backwards from the negation to figure out a proper meaning to be parallel to the first two lines.

[yiming]

I don't think he gets any money from it... and no to the latter.

 

Well, you think wrong. All Shamans get money especially those who use PayPal.

I have to hand it to Flowing Hands though. He must be the first white man getting into this nonsense.

 

Please stick to the study aspect of the chapters and don't just troll. Thanks.

 

I am not trolling. You guys are - trolling for superstitious fellow travellers in the guise of studying the Tao Te Ching.

I am trying to stick to the subject which is inquiry into the crap that life has become. The Tao Te Ching is supposed to be a book of wisdom. Apart from the "you are clever and I am smart" ego-massaging exercise, show me one scrap of wisdom that you fellas have uncovered in your study.

[dawei]

I am not trolling.

I'll let the mods decide that. I have already reported your posting here.

 

If you want to discuss a chapter, feel free.. otherwise, you should stay to a thread you have something to contribute to. THanks.

[yiming]

Did you know about the blind who see colors when hearing music...

 

I don't. You do? Unless you are blind and speaking from direct experience, you are indulging in promoting shaman nonsense.

I once asked a guy who was born blind if he was living in a state of darkness. He mulled on my question and replied, "I don't know what is darkness because I have never seen light."

 

What that blind guy said stunned me. No duality. Simple as that. But I don't think you can grasp this.

 

besides the three particular examples denote the same idea using three different language forms... probably intentionally done in hopes of one of them getting through and inducing the realization of the original idea...

 

And what is that original idea?

[yiming]

I'll let the mods decide that. I have already reported your posting here.

 

I thought you are a moderator. You certainly behave like one trying to control the discussion and pushing me around.

 

If you want to discuss a chapter, feel free.. otherwise, you should stay to a thread you have something to contribute to. THanks.

 

Let the mods decide. If they want to throw me out, that's fine. You mind your own business.

[et-thoughts]

Apart from the "you are clever and I am smart" ego-massaging exercise, show me one scrap of wisdom that you fellas have uncovered in your study.

 

Personally the realization that the pessimists who sees a half-empty cup and the optimist who sees a half-full cup be delusional, the realists always sees the full cup ... full with a combination of stuff - say some water and some air...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You will be pleasantly surprised that I found a possible reason that De (德) was added to Hun (昏)...

 

Hun can mean dark, confused, chaos.... which may at first sight be understood as close in meaning to Xuan (玄), often translated as mystery.

 

There is a passage in Zhuang Zi, Heaven and Earth which states:

 

"That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness (昏), but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning) (玄德)" -- Tr. Legge

 

Thus, ZZ equated Hun with Xuan De.

 

The problem I run into is making sense of the line and keeping it parallel to the others. In the first three lines, the first word contrasts to the four-fifth word and their relationship is named in the eight word:

 

視之而弗見□之曰微 = See , Not See , Hidden

聽之而弗聞命之曰希 = Hear , Not Hear , Silent

[德]昏之而弗得命之曰夷 = Dark (mysterious De) Not obtained (or not harmony) , Even/Level/Smooth

 

Yi (夷) is also in chapters 41 and 53, so it's meaning can be inferred from there to stay consistent to its meaning in other chapters. In 41, Yi is contrasted with uneven. In 53, Dao is said to be Yi...

 

So it would seem that Yi should carry a positive meaning but to not obtain [harmony] from mysterious De would be negative.

 

It is clear to me that this last line would cause problems in understanding and why latter versions changed the first word and the last word, and then worked backwards from the negation to figure out a proper meaning to be parallel to the first two lines.

 

Nice finds! Its parallels like these which seem to be the best way to measure accuracy, short of fixing that time machine I made in high-school shop class....

 

I'm quite convinced that there are some metaphorical puns\double entendres here at the very least, but:

 

I guess from the common line of translation it might be something like "Virtue: mystify it and not obtain, this is called leveling."

 

This seems to make sense on a surface level, but still, I think the poetic nature of it all is resting in these characters resting between chapters 13 and 15.

 

 

As to:

"That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness (昏), but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning) (玄德)"

 

I think Legge might have gotten this wrong. Seems by the context that 昏 was to mean "dusk" as in "in between." Note that 玄德 is somewhat almost defined in chapter 10, a chapter which I think lines up well with the above sentences.

 

There is an interesting note in the intro to the 1912 book on reading Classical Chinese, that literacy was not so abundant in those time, so fewer words were used for more descriptions with vagueness resulting. Though when considering the genius of many writers at this time, I think they would easily employ these written words with multiple possible poetic connotations and additional meanings, especially considering the import of such a symbolic book at the time as the I Ching. For some reason though, this idea seems to so ill-received by some that it's like I have to defend it every time it comes up. I'm lost as to why, but I know better than to rely merely on the projected confidence of so called "experts" with or without credential.

[et-thoughts]

I don't. You do? Unless you are blind and speaking from direct experience, you are indulging in promoting shaman nonsense.

I once asked a guy who was born blind if he was living in a state of darkness. He mulled on my question and replied, "I don't know what is darkness because I have never seen light."

 

What that blind guy said stunned me. No duality. Simple as that. But I don't think you can grasp this.

 

And what is that original idea?

 

I was reporting some article which talked about it and which I considered accurate. It made sense to me.

If you don't think something then how did you manage to post it? I understand dualities and singularities, probably better than you can imagine. You are probably familiar with the saying that The tao that is spoken is not the tao... you ask me to put into words that original idea that is alluded to by the statements... what makes you think you will get to the original idea with different words? what is 'that original idea', it is 'that original idea'... the way be the way regardless of the words one uses to point to it.

[rene]

yiming...

Leave them alone and let it be.

 

ChiDragon, hi

 

It seems your student is very disrespectful of you and your request. Perhaps you could help him understand how his actions now reflect on you.

 

warm regards

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It is good to know that you are not commercially exploiting the Tao Te Ching like Flowing Hands who must be raking in a small fortune selling fa fus and performing exorcisms. I wonder why dawei is promoting Flowing Hands in this forum. Does he get a commission?

 

So what about the Chinese people who examined the the mysterious words of the Dao De Jing? Anyone that comments on it or tries to help others learn its wisdom is exploiting a book of wisdom? No, sorry. And you being Chinese while the authors being Chinese does not make it any more "your" book than anyone elses. So everyone today that uses electricity is exploiting the people who invented electricity? Or all cell phone users are exploiting Alexander Graham Bell if their not Canadian? . Well, I guess you better stop benefiting off the efforts of these people since they didn't come from your country.

 

I thought the study of the Tao Te Ching is a collective endeavor, each helping the other to find salvation for mankind. You are obviously not Chinese judging from your indivudalistic, selfish bent. You think that there is something in this for you and you only.

 

So it's individualistic to try and clarify exactly what was written in a text that very few people here or anywhere else can even begin to read, including it's country and language of origin? And to do so for free on a public forum, anonymously!

 

You study the I Ching too? That's impressive, even for a Chinese which you are not, unfortunately.

 

Actually it's really not that impressive whatsoever. It's not what you do, it's how you do it. And it's not where your ancestors came from, it's who you are that matters. That you apparently studied a few pages of wisdom traditions of China and don't recognize this is what is unfortunate.

 

Well, you think wrong. All Shamans get money especially those who use PayPal.

I have to hand it to Flowing Hands though. He must be the first white man getting into this nonsense.

 

 

 

I am not trolling. You guys are - trolling for superstitious fellow travellers in the guise of studying the Tao Te Ching.

I am trying to stick to the subject which is inquiry into the crap that life has become. The Tao Te Ching is supposed to be a book of wisdom. Apart from the "you are clever and I am smart" ego-massaging exercise, show me one scrap of wisdom that you fellas have uncovered in your study.

 

I would just as soon be glad to learn I am wrong and find out what is right, as find out that I am on the right track and could continue reading with my current understanding. If there is any congratulation here, is that we are finding things which may have been overlooked in available translations in English, and even in modern Chinese which uses about 1\6 of the words used through the Classical eras, and most of the modern terms are altered to the point that some would just as easily read an English translation of the same text.

 

If we manage to find even a few missed meanings in this text (the most translated of any book in the world) this would be of great value to more than just ourselves. So if you don't mind us continuing without you buzzing around the topics like a shit seeking housefly, we have more important questions to look into than how to get you off the page. Thanks!!!

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon, hi

 

It seems your student is very disrespectful of you and your request. Perhaps you could help him understand how his actions now reflect on you.

 

warm regards

 

rene, hi

 

yiming is a very individualistic person. I can understand his behavior was due to the exposure to a different culture. I remember that I had the same behavior once before. Somehow, I think we all have to learn our lessons from a hard way. I hope he will realize, in the near future, that he had been forgiven by the tolerable people, here, in this forum. Thank you.

 

PS...

I do not and cannot control over his behavior. He is what he is. I don't think there is any bearing in reflection between me and him.

[Marblehead]

Sounds like scavenging to me. How's it going so far? Show me one thing you found that is useful, and I mean practically useful even if it has no relationship to the US Dollar.

What a simple request to supply an answer to.

 

Useful: In my livingroom I have three recliner chairs. The room has one picture window. Outside the window one can see two-thirds of my gardens. The chair I normally sit in has been turned 180 degrees so that when I sit in it I am looking directly out the window instead of into the livingroom.

 

Just that one act of turning the chair, totally without dollar value, has brought me untold pleasures, looking at the plants, flowers, butterflies, birds, etc. A value beyond valuing.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Marblehead

[et-thoughts]

What a simple request to supply an answer to.

 

Useful: In my livingroom I have three recliner chairs. The room has one picture window. Outside the window one can see two-thirds of my gardens. The chair I normally sit in has been turned 180 degrees so that when I sit in it I am looking directly out the window instead of into the livingroom.

 

Just that one act of turning the chair, totally without dollar value, has brought me untold pleasures, looking at the plants, flowers, butterflies, birds, etc. A value beyond valuing.

 

priceless ... a value beyond value... priceless...