[TTC Study] Chapter 14 of the Tao Teh Ching

[et-thoughts]

I would just as soon be glad to learn I am wrong and find out what is right, as find out that I am on the right track and could continue reading with my current understanding.

 

(snipped)

 

If we manage to find even a few missed meanings in this text (the most translated of any book in the world) this would be of great value to more than just ourselves.

 

I welcome and embrace the true ways regardless of them showing me what I need to correct or confirming my current understanding, the truth be the truth independent of it stemming from the mouths of humble children or the wise old ones discovering certain meanings in the text, in the stories, and in the experiences can change it all and be of great value to more than just ourselves...

[yiming]

 

If we manage to find even a few missed meanings in this text (the most translated of any book in the world) this would be of great value to more than just ourselves. So if you don't mind us continuing without you buzzing around the topics like a shit seeking housefly, we have more important questions to look into than how to get you off the page. Thanks!!!

 

Shit seeking housefly. I like that. You are right about the shit-seeking but I never thought of myself as a housefly.

[yiming]

Just that one act of turning the chair, totally without dollar value, has brought me untold pleasures, looking at the plants, flowers, butterflies, birds, etc. A value beyond valuing.

 

What a simple request to supply an answer to.

 

Useful: In my livingroom I have three recliner chairs. The room has one picture window. Outside the window one can see two-thirds of my gardens. The chair I normally sit in has been turned 180 degrees so that when I sit in it I am looking directly out the window instead of into the livingroom.

 

Just that one act of turning the chair, totally without dollar value, has brought me untold pleasures, looking at the plants, flowers, butterflies, birds, etc. A value beyond valuing.

 

Your response to my buzzing around is a lot more Tao-like than Harmonious Emptiness's.

May untold pleasures be with you for ten thousand years.

[dawei]

I'm quite convinced that there are some metaphorical puns\double entendres here at the very least

Me too... but not finding a suitable explanation yet.

 

 

As to:

"That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness (昏), but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning) (玄德)"

 

I think Legge might have gotten this wrong. Seems by the context that 昏 was to mean "dusk" as in "in between." Note that 玄德 is somewhat almost defined in chapter 10, a chapter which I think lines up well with the above sentences.

I am inclined to accept Legge's translation as in the right direction as the words, stupidity and dark, need to carry a similar [negative] meaning.

 

The word for stupidity is Yu (愚) and can mean unintelligent or deceived as well... so dark, confused, muddled, mixed up (for 昏) seems to be a valid pairing. But we may not agree and that is ok as it has caused us to look deeper and get to this point.

 

 

There is an interesting note in the intro to the 1912 book on reading Classical Chinese, that literacy was not so abundant in those time, so fewer words were used for more descriptions with vagueness resulting. Though when considering the genius of many writers at this time, I think they would easily employ these written words with multiple possible poetic connotations and additional meanings, especially considering the import of such a symbolic book at the time as the I Ching. For some reason though, this idea seems to so ill-received by some that it's like I have to defend it every time it comes up. I'm lost as to why, but I know better than to rely merely on the projected confidence of so called "experts" with or without credential.

I agree with this. I see the DDJ as in the oral tradition which required brevity of words, parallelism, rhythm, etc... but rich in symbolism, if not metaphoric and poetic.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

 

I noticed too, in the MWD versions, that 弗 (barbarian, war) is used sort of as a negation

(word for word:)

 

 

Ha ha.. just realized I missed that this is not the same character as "barbarian." Not that it changes too much though... barbarian seems to be used mostly to mean "level(ling)" while this is just "not" rather than "destroyed" or something...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Me too... but not finding a suitable explanation yet.

 

You don't think there might have been sort of a pun\double meaning then as I was getting at before?

 

[/color]

I am inclined to accept Legge's translation as in the right direction as the words, stupidity and dark, need to carry a similar [negative] meaning.

 

The word for stupidity is Yu (愚) and can mean unintelligent or deceived as well... so dark, confused, muddled, mixed up (for 昏) seems to be a valid pairing. But we may not agree and that is ok as it has caused us to look deeper and get to this point.

 

 

Yeah, I don't really see the connection between these characters. But would be happy to hear how you do...??

[Marblehead]

May untold pleasures be with you for ten thousand years.

Nice response. Thanks.

[ChiDragon]

dawei....

Where did you obtain this phrase from...???

[德]昏之而弗得命之曰夷

 

Should it be this....???

捪之而弗得命之曰夷

Edited September 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

dawei....

Where did you obtain this phrase:

[德]昏之而弗得命之曰夷

 

Should it be this:

捪之而弗得命之曰夷

I have simply stayed with the original text I found as attributed to MWD A and B; the above for B... and wanted to exhaust a look at it and why De might of been added (mistakenly or not); I did come to one reason why based on the Zhuang Zi passage.

 

But I have kept your character close at 'hand'. I also went to the Hendrick's version and I see he also uses that character. So I am not sure why two version appears to exist for MWD B.

 

I will say that 捪 works better towards keeping parallel senses (sight, hear, touch); and the later text simply exchange 搏 for it.

 

The challenge seems to be, if one sticks to MWD A/B, is to maintain the parallel association between lines 1-6 and 13-15.

 

Hendricks has:

1. We look at it but do not see it;

2. We name this "the minute."

3. We listen to it but do not hear it;

4. We name this "the rarefied."

5. We touch it but do not hold it;

6. We name this "the level and smooth."

...

13. This is called the formless form,

14. The substanceless image.

15. This is called the subtle and indistinct.

 

It is my opinion that 13-15 are a restatement of the "three" and so should tie back to the opening lines.

 

I am now moving on to look at the use of 捪 for the third item...

Edited September 3, 2012 by dawei

[dawei]

You don't think there might have been sort of a pun\double meaning then as I was getting at before?

"Virtue: mystify it and not obtain, this is called leveling."

 

Leveling or even smooth don't make so much sense on the surface but I found other translators who followed this line of thought. I am ok with keeping 夷 in the line as I found that the Wang Bi commentary also has it mentioned. But I think the key to understanding it is in the other chapters (41 and 53) in combination with the last lines... Why is Dao said to be 夷? Some call it easy, level, smooth, etc... but I think the last 3 lines are the key; there is a picture of 'regulating' life via Dao. Here, regulating means to 'smooth' it out; level it out; make it easy to arise and return... Dao does this for the ten thousand.

 

 

 

Yeah, I don't really see the connection between these characters. But would be happy to hear how you do...??

愚 can mean unintelligent or deceived; the mind is deceived, not clear.

昏 can mean dark, confused, muddled, mixed up; the mind is confused, not clear.

Edited September 3, 2012 by dawei

[dawei]

I finally had a breakthrough on sticking to the MWD lines:

 

 

 

To look and not see it, this is why [Dao] is named hidden.

To listen and not hear it, this is why [Dao] is named silent.

To grasp [the darkness of De] and not obtain it, this is why [Dao] is named level/smooth/easy.

 

 

Going to step away for a while to let this sink in, in regards to the rest of the chapter...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

To grasp [the darkness of De] and not obtain it, this is why [Dao] is named level/smooth/easy.

 

 

This is more or less what I meant by ""Virtue: mystify it and not obtain, this is called leveling."

By grasping at virtue, trying to explain it so much that it becomes mysterious, it cannot be obtained, and this reaction (not being able to obtain it) is a leveling action of Dao.

 

This can also be explained that wanting to possess a reputation of virtue, some might try to make it seem great and mystical, which results in them not possessing it. I think this is more of the underlying practicality of it.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

dawei, thanks for your take re Henricks. If the 'Feng' you refer to is Gia-Fu, there's an interesting side-story re the final edit of his DDJ which I'll share another time so as to not distract the topic. Thanks again, most appreciated. (-:

Hey Rene... yes... Gia-Fu... I merely addressed him by his family name (xing) as is common to do among chinese. You referenced him by his given name which is common to do among western folks... same physical person in the end

 

I would like to hear that side-story and I have an article I can share as well about him. Thanks!

[dawei]

This is more or less what I meant by ""Virtue: mystify it and not obtain, this is called leveling."

By grasping at virtue, trying to explain it so much that it becomes mysterious, it cannot be obtained, and this reaction (not being able to obtain it) is a leveling action of Dao.

 

This can also be explained that wanting to possess a reputation of virtue, some might try to make it seem great and mystical, which results in them not possessing it. I think this is more of the underlying practicality of it.

That is good... We seem to have arrived at a similar explanation in the end.

 

And yes, I think there will be many applications one can find.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Your response to my buzzing around is a lot more Tao-like than Harmonious Emptiness's.

 

Note this discussion. The Dao is a leveling force. You are being leveled as you need to be put in your place. Coming about here like you are in any position to call someone on their actions. Look at your actions and how you speak to people? How do you fashion yourself worthy to judge anybody here? You have proven yourself to have the maturity of a piglet. Perhaps you ought not play your little "I'm smarter and cleverer" game until you learn how to communicate with human beings on an equal level rather than just as a disruptive little pig chasing after his favourite dish of shit and acting like he's doing someone a service.

 

As the mods have failed to call you on your consistent racism and trolling, I am calling you out for what you are and have proven yourself to be over and over again. If you wish to continue posting on this forum, you'd probably be best to start a new user name.. though judging by the lack of control you have over yourself, your communication strategy will likely result in that account being deleted soon as well.

 

Maybe next time you'll find a better way to judge yourself against others than the accident at birth which ended up with you being born to a random pair of strangers....

[yiming]

Note this discussion. The Dao is a leveling force. You are being leveled as you need to be put in your place. Coming about here like you are in any position to call someone on their actions. Look at your actions and how you speak to people? How do you fashion yourself worthy to judge anybody here? You have proven yourself to have the maturity of a piglet. Perhaps you ought not play your little "I'm smarter and cleverer" game until you learn how to communicate with human beings on an equal level rather than just as a disruptive little pig chasing after his favourite dish of shit and acting like he's doing someone a service.

 

As the mods have failed to call you on your consistent racism and trolling, I am calling you out for what you are and have proven yourself to be over and over again. If you wish to continue posting on this forum, you'd probably be best to start a new user name.. though judging by the lack of control you have over yourself, your communication strategy will likely result in that account being deleted soon as well.

 

Maybe next time you'll find a better way to judge yourself against others than the accident at birth which ended up with you being born to a random pair of strangers....

 

So, you reckon Mary and Joseph were a random pair of strangers? I'll bet you do based on your doctrine of a levelling Tao, something only a Marxist socialist could dream up. Equality is a western political sentiment. It has no place in Chinese philosophy which is not philosophy in the western sense.

 

The Tao Te Ching predates western civilization. So, how is a fella like you going to jump out of your cultural brainwash to grok something that is eternally removed from you? A Chinaman doesn't have your handicap and to point that out is not being racist. Racism is another western hang-up implanted in the western psyche by Jewish reaction to anti-semitism. Here again, the Chinese is not burdened by this emotional baggage.

 

What you will take away, after all your study, is a monster that bears no relationship to the Tao Te Ching. It will be your own little baby that look just like you because it is you who fathered it, not Lao Tze.

[Marblehead]

I would like to point out that this personal confrontation is only distracting from the essence of the thread and the value of discussing this Chapter of the Tao Te Ching.

 

(Yes, I know that I have been guilty of the same so I am not really being a hypocrate when I mention this.)

 

(Personal conflicts should remain personal, I. e., via PM.)

 

Anyhow, continue the dispute if y'all feel it will lead to better understanding.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So, you reckon Mary and Joseph were a random pair of strangers?

 

Assuming that story to be true, I don't think God chose your parents to give birth to his son. Your level of delusion seems to be coming out of the woodwork.

 

 

I'll bet you do based on your doctrine of a levelling Tao, something only a Marxist socialist could dream up. Equality is a western political sentiment. It has no place in Chinese philosophy which is not philosophy in the western sense.

 

 

So you fashion yourself an expert on the Dao De Jing and your not even familiar with the basic principle of Balance, and how it fills the holes and levels the mounds, favours the humble and humiliates the proud.

 

Perhaps if your knowledge about it went past memorizing one chapter because you like the way it sounds (as you said in "learning Chinese forum") you would know how fundamental a principle this is to the Dao De Jing. You have much to learn, and it seems your misplaced pride will have to be leveled before that happens.

 

 

The Tao Te Ching predates western civilization. So, how is a fella like you going to jump out of your cultural brainwash to grok something that is eternally removed from you? A Chinaman doesn't have your handicap and to point that out is not being racist. Racism is another western hang-up implanted in the western psyche by Jewish reaction to anti-semitism.

 

WOW! You really don't know ANYTHING ! You really think the Jewish people were only ones who brought the issue of racism to the West? Everyone from the Native, to the Irish, to the Italians, the Polish, the Hungarian, the African, AND the Chinese and the Japanese fought against the mindless hatred of racism. And this struggle goes back to ancient history all around the world where countries invaded other countries, justifying their carnage on a false myth of racial superiority. This includes even the English telling themselves that they were racial superior to the Irish and Scottish.

 

Thank you for making it even more obvious though that you really do not belong on this forum where we have all different races. You'd better run before we mix in with your family heritage!

 

 

Here again, the Chinese is not burdened by this emotional baggage.

 

 

No suffering based on racism in China? You probably better try to ask yourself this question at least one more time. The fact that you are not immediately aware of this is a pitiful reflection of how much you know about your own country, its various people and their struggles today and throughout history.

 

 

What you will take away, after all your study, is a monster that bears no relationship to the Tao Te Ching. It will be your own little baby that look just like you because it is you who fathered it, not Lao Tze.

 

Yeah, I'll trust somebody's opinion on that who has at least read the text maybe... Thanks....

 

What a joke. Dude, get out of here. The only purpose you would serve to hang around is amuse everyone by the depth of your ignorance. Hearing you is like watching National Geographic - looking at animals that you almost forgot existed, and seeing how they act in real life. However, this is not the place for you to run your crap all over the place. If you have any benefit to gain from this forum, it is certainly not going to be done any more by showing us how ignorant you are. This has already been done more than adequately.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[yiming]

I would like to point out that this personal confrontation is only distracting from the essence of the thread and the value of discussing this Chapter of the Tao Te Ching.

 

(Yes, I know that I have been guilty of the same so I am not really being a hypocrate when I mention this.)

 

(Personal conflicts should remain personal, I. e., via PM.)

 

Anyhow, continue the dispute if y'all feel it will lead to better understanding.

 

It is not personal, at least not on my part. If this sounds like a quarrel, it is because of the passion aroused by the debate. I am all for the freedom of expression and beg your indulgence. So, please bear with us in this free-for-all venting of views and don't call in the cops. No one is getting hurt here and there is so much to learn about Harmony's grasp of the Tao Te Ching.

[ChiDragon]

Do we want to hear the positive side all the time....??? Let's hear some negatives....!!! Let's see what is in everybody's mind.

 

 

PS....

Please don't bring the MODs yet....!!!

Edited September 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

Assuming that story to be true, I don't think God chose your parents to give birth to his son. Your level of delusion seems to be coming out of the woodwork.

 

Ok, I take this to mean that you regard Christianity as a load of bull even though you endorse Flowing Hands' shaman magic.

 

So you fashion yourself an expert on the Dao De Jing and your not even familiar with the basic principle of Balance, and how it fills the holes and levels the mounds, favours the humble and humiliates the proud.

 

Look, there is no expert on the Tao Te Ching as long as we all accept the Chapter 1 decree that the Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao. I was merely pointing out that your depiction of the Eternal Tao as a levelling instrument is an attempt to use a revered Chinese classic to give credence to the western political value of equality. West is west and East is east. Stop trying to equate the two.

Perhaps if your knowledge about it went past memorizing one chapter because you like the way it sounds (as you said in "learning Chinese forum") you would know how fundamental a principle this is to the Dao De Jing. You have much to learn, and it seems your misplaced pride will have to be leveled before that happens.

Knowledge about the Tao? I have none because it is unknowable. Which part of Chapter 14 do you not understand? My time is better spent swinging myself 180 degrees on my swivel chair to watch the garden as I recite Chapter 14.

 

WOW! You really don't know ANYTHING ! You really think the Jewish people were only ones who brought the issue of racism to the West? Everyone from the Native, to the Irish, to the Italians, the Polish, the Hungarian, the African, AND the Chinese and the Japanese fought against the mindless hatred of racism. And this struggle goes back to ancient history all around the world where countries invaded other countries, justifying their carnage on a false myth of racial superiority. This includes even the English telling themselves that they were racial superior to the Irish and Scottish.

 

People are fighting all the time. You can choose to see it as racism and morally demonize the conflict that way. Lions have been hunting wildebeest, and if the latter thought like you, all lions would bear the stamp of the swastika. Don't you understand Chapter 2?

Thank you for making it even more obvious though that you really do not belong on this forum where we have all different races. You'd better run before we mix in with your family heritage!

China is a land of many races but they are all Chinese including white-skinned, blue-eyed ones in her western regions. Cultural purity is what holds the Chinese together. If you are not Chinese like me - culturally speaking - then you are a tourist. Your study of the Tao Te Ching would be like a visit to the Great Wall of China. We, Chinese, ARE the Great Wall. We ARE the Tao Te Ching. Now, that is grokking.

No suffering based on racism in China? You probably better try to ask yourself this question at least one more time. The fact that you are not immediately aware of this is a pitiful reflection of how much you know about your own country, its various people and their struggles today and throughout history.

Are you not being a mite self-righteous here? You would insist on judging China based on your western moral yardstick. The Chinese have suffered mightily for far longer than any nation but we don't moan about it crying foul this and foul that. The root of human suffering is unknown. Calling it racism is scapegoating to fuel more conflict.

 

Yeah, I'll trust somebody's opinion on that who has at least read the text maybe... Thanks....

 

What a joke. Dude, get out of here. The only purpose you would serve to hang around is amuse everyone by the depth of your ignorance. Hearing you is like watching National Geographic - looking at animals that you almost forgot existed, and seeing how they act in real life. However, this is not the place for you to run your crap all over the place. If you have any benefit to gain from this forum, it is certainly not going to be done any more by showing us how ignorant you are. This has already been done more than adequately.

You feel better now? Venting is good to maintain Chi balance.

I prefer using the crapper.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Ok, I take this to mean that you regard Christianity as a load of bull even though you endorse Flowing Hands' shaman magic.

 

Look, there is no expert on the Tao Te Ching as long as we all accept the Chapter 1 decree that the Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao. I was merely pointing out that your depiction of the Eternal Tao as a levelling instrument is an attempt to use a revered Chinese classic to give credence to the western political value of equality. West is west and East is east. Stop trying to equate the two.

 

Knowledge about the Tao? I have none because it is unknowable. Which part of Chapter 14 do you not understand? My time is better spent swinging myself 180 degrees on my swivel chair to watch the garden as I recite Chapter 14.

 

 

People are fighting all the time. You can choose to see it as racism and morally demonize the conflict that way. Lions have been hunting wildebeest, and if the latter thought like you, all lions would bear the stamp of the swastika. Don't you understand Chapter 2?

 

China is a land of many races but they are all Chinese including white-skinned, blue-eyed ones in her western regions. Cultural purity is what holds the Chinese together. If you are not Chinese like me - culturally speaking - then you are a tourist. Your study of the Tao Te Ching would be like a visit to the Great Wall of China. We, Chinese, ARE the Great Wall. We ARE the Tao Te Ching. Now, that is grokking.

 

Are you not being a mite self-righteous here? You would insist on judging China based on your western moral yardstick. The Chinese have suffered mightily for far longer than any nation but we don't moan about it crying foul this and foul that. The root of human suffering is unknown. Calling it racism is scapegoating to fuel more conflict.

 

 

So many contradictions, so little time.

 

All I will say, is that the Dao De Jing was written in China because people in China needed to hear it, as does the entire world. Most of the other religions seem to date back to the cultural progressions of Khemet/Ancient Egypt which said many things similar to the philosophies of the I Ching, Nei Jia, and Dao De Jing. It is not just Chinese who had such teachers.

 

The Dao De Jing, in part, was written to show people how to live and work collectively towards harmony and prosperity. How would racism and cultural superiority help you in this endeavour?

[ChiDragon]

All I will say, is that the Dao De Jing was written in China because people in China needed to hear it, as does the entire world.

Please keep in mind.

During the Warring states, the Chinese didn't know that there were other parts of the world existed. The ancients most ofter used the term 天下(tian xia), underneath heaven, was referring to China only. Thus to answer your question, the Tao Te Ching was meant for the Chinese only at the time.

 

In the modern time, the world becomes international. Hence, the definition of 天下(tian xia, underneath heaven), have become broadened to the entire world rather than just China.

 

For the sake of this discussion, the time period was limited to China only.

Edited September 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[rene]

I was merely pointing out that your depiction of the Eternal Tao as a levelling instrument is an attempt to use a revered Chinese classic to give credence to the western political value of equality.

 

Was it? Perhaps. And perhaps not everything is the way you've pre-decided it is.

 

To me, tao is a great leveller - but it has nothing to do with political values, east vs. west, or wrong thinking or anything else. Tao pours shit and sugar on us all equally, without preference for one group or another. Everyone lives, everyone dies. Sounds like a pretty square deal to me.

 

warm regards

[ChiDragon]

Was it? Perhaps. And perhaps not everything is the way you've pre-decided it is.

 

To me, tao is a great leveller - but it has nothing to do with political values, east vs. west, or wrong thinking or anything else. Tao pours shit and sugar on us all equally, without preference for one group or another. Everyone lives, everyone dies. Sounds like a pretty square deal to me.

 

warm regards

Perhaps for those who live in a democratic society, the only thing they have known is equality. However, there were lot of situations which are not.

 

If there wasn't any preference for one group or another, then, the Tao Te Ching wouldn't have bad been written. LaoTze wrote the ideas in the Tao Te Ching was based on inequality. He saw the ruling class were high above with no sympathy nor justice for the people.