why talk?

[neimad]

i can identify 4 general areas that is possible to have a verbal communication about.

 

1) talking about the future.

dreams and goals, ideas and plans.... basically telling someone what you wish for or intend to do.

 

2) talking about the past.

past events, situations, circumstances.... basically telling your life story.

 

3) talking about the present external.

that man is walking down the street. there is a bird in the tree. thats a beautiful sunset.... describing the scene.

 

4) talking about the present internal.

our thoughts, right now.... telling someone what you are thinking about.

 

 

what is the usefulness of these 4 areas of verbal communication?

 

1. useful only if you share common goals with the individual you are discussing this with and using this to create a plan, other than that just traps in wistful thinking that more often than not leads nowhere.

 

2. really not much relevance. traps you in the past, steals you from the present. possibly only useful to elicit a laugh (bringing you back to the present, even momentarily).

 

3. pretty useless really as unless the person is blind, they can see what's going on! has relevances for pointing out imminent danger or something the other person can't detect with any of their senses (although i don't think thats ever really possible, just the degree to which we listen... most of the time cos we are so caught up in talking!).

funny thing is that young children often only communicate in this form. i place the question though is if the child only communicates itself this way, because it is brought up around so much damn talking that it falls into this pattern of needing to verbally communicate.

 

4. unless you are engaged in a discussion about truth with another individual... this form of communication drives you up the wall!!!

funny thing is that a lot of drugs (probably more so the natural ones) elicit this kind of form of communication.

 

 

so you can see that much of our verbal communication is largely useless, and yet we expend so much energy and time caught up in these silly banterings, mostly 1 & 2... but amongst us seekers we will drift into 4 any time we can.

none of these really bring us into the moment and we have the capability of communicating in so many different ways that do!

 

someones smell, how they look, how they feel to touch, how they move... how they 'feel' (using other sensory abilities, electromagnetic fields for example) all communicate information to us. we are in constant communication with everthing around us at all times and just by focusing on it, by trying to be aware of it all, by focusing the intent in that direction... we are brought into the moment.

 

so why do we all talk so much!?

 

 

 

edited to place in order of possible correspondances with chakra system.

Edited May 30, 2006 by neimad

[GrandTrinity]

I agree, talking is overated. When arising from within the tao it is good, but it has to be Wu Wei!

 

Not talking is the essence of the tao, sit in silence god damnit!

 

In school the drill this in kids heads, sit and dont move! If only they also taught them how to use chakras/subtle energy meditations? Perhaps attention deficit disorder could disapear?

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[neimad]

freeform,

 

i acknowledge your response but i don't necessarily agree.

 

i also see the verbal grooming aspect of it as being true, but i'm not interested in eliminating communication between two beings... i'm interested in how to make that communication even more effective!! how can we communicate on an even deeper level and really get serious connection happening?

and i felt drawn to post this topic not necessarily for grooming purposes, to have acknowledgment and connection (although they would be factors) more it is a learning experience for me. it's a chance for me to allow my stray thoughts to become coherent for the purposes of writing this.... i learnt so much just from writing it and have been reflecting on it all night while sleeping and all morning too.

 

to do that i feel we need to strip away all garbage from useless conversation.

 

to add to the 4 areas i identified, i find two more:

 

5) responsive communication. that is an individual with whom you are involved in a conversation with is in one of the 4 above modes, you are merely responding to what they are discussing. it's very easy to stray from this into one of the above 4 modes (cause we don't like listening much, talking is better... we are just waiting to jump into our own divulgence of one of the above 4).

 

6) teaching. to be at this level is to be a spiritually advanced being... this is when you are stating exactly what the people around you need to hear, communicating directly to their beingness.

 

 

5 & 6, i feel are higher forms of verbal communicationg.

number 6 is probably beyond most, if not all, of us posting on this board... and we might think we are in 6 when actually we are in 4 (present internal)... although i'm sure we are all capable of drifting into 6 on the odd occassion, in those times we find a person pulling words from our mouths and we are not quite sure how they are taking it only that we are having a very deep communication with them.

 

number 5 i think is the most useful to us spiritual seekers. it is the most wu-wei, the most harmonious form of communication. we allow others to be at whatever form of communication they need to be and we listen.... we truly listen, with more than our ears, with our entire sensory... and because we are not caught up in waiting for our turn to talk... we can easily be drawn into the present and we can gain an understanding of what it is to be that person with whom we are communicating, we can begin to communicate on other levels and we can also learn to be entirely appropriate to the situation, giving the appropriate response when necessary.

 

this is harmony.

 

 

so i am going to conduct an experiment for myself, i am going to strip away all unnecessary verbal communication. i am going to remain in the '5' spot of verbal communication unless it is appropriate for me to drift into one of the other areas, for the only appropriate uses i gave in my first post (eliciting laughter, planning a common goal, informing of something someone can't detect, involved in a truth-seeking dialogue).

 

i'm going to concentrate on really listening, with more than my ears.

 

i'm going to see what happens with this....

 

 

oh and p.s. i feel that writing and reading are entirely different from verbal communication, there is a whole different set of forms and appropriateness that i haven't dwelled upon as it's not what i am focused on at this point.

 

 

this could be the naturally evolving progression of my "connection" THP, as i have pretty much eliminated negative speak and swear words from my verbality.

[Smile]

This may be related:

 

There was (still is?) an "aboriginal tribe in Columbia deep in the Amazon jungle called the Kogi. They had no language and "spoke" only telepathically to each other. In truth they made little sounds, but these sounds were not logically arranged into any pattern such as an alphabet. They were just sounds, but these sounds came from the heart not the mind and created images inside your head, and you could "see" what the other person was communicating."

 

Search Google for more information.

[neimad]

This may be related:

 

There was (still is?) an "aboriginal tribe in Columbia deep in the Amazon jungle called the Kogi. They had no language and "spoke" only telepathically to each other. In truth they made little sounds, but these sounds were not logically arranged into any pattern such as an alphabet. They were just sounds, but these sounds came from the heart not the mind and created images inside your head, and you could "see" what the other person was communicating."

 

Search Google for more information.

 

 

for real.

i was kinda heading in that direction with my posts... just been waiting for peoples responses... but i think the less inane chatter we indulge in, the more we are able to open ourselves up to our 'telepathic' (i.e. using all our sensory) abilities.

for sure we have this, we just don't use it.

[sean]

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bzzzzz...

 

nnhhhhgggggg.....

 

 

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bloop

 

 

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[Smile]

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bzzzzz...

 

nnhhhhgggggg.....

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bloop

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ohhhh, you are nasty!

Doing it to your cat, for god's sake?

[GrandTrinity]

fart

[ToP-fan]

With all this chatter about why bothering to talk..............I thought this might be a good lead in

to a web-site by a Russian named Vlacheslav Bronnikov who teaches blind children how to see using their higher senses...............Not only blind folks, but anybody who is willing to learn through a series of exercises that activate both hemispheres of the brain...............Very interesting stuff and he now has a training video in English that gets you started..........Not cheap, but if you have the dough it might be worth checking out. The site is:www.bronnikovmethod.com

[neimad]

...

 

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bzzzzz...

 

nnhhhhgggggg.....

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bloop

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fart

 

 

what's wrong guys?

want to reach enlightenment but find the concept of higher communicative faculties something not worthwhile?

 

well what sensory do you think you use to understand god? your sight? your smell? your taste? your touch? your hearing? ...... or something higher than that? something perhaps a little more.... multi-dimensional?

 

 

 

on another note, have just almost completed a day with only engaging in two very brief frivolous conversations. have already noticed my perceptive levels increased, more intent on trying to feel what it is the person is really saying behind the words.

with a friend at a morning tea break at work, he was real spun out and wondered why i had changed.... but he was actually more visibly relaxed around me and feel into a more at ease role. was very interesting.

 

i've got a piece of paper and a pen to carry around with me and anytime i engage in one of these conversations i make a mark on the paper, just so i am always on gaurd! very powerful method of altering your thought processes.......

[Cameron]

Since I was stranded in my apartment last 4 days detoxing I have done very little talking. I ignored most of my cell calls and didn't make any. It's interesting because in the space of 4 days I have only spoken for a few seconds and I notice there is a higher level of clarity to what I am expressing. When your talking all day long you just get into this mode of chattering whether something needs to be said or not.

 

It's probably useful to do spiritual retreat like they do in zen where you do no talking from time to time. That's why I was thinking of doing atleast 1 week long retreat a year starting next year.

 

It's funny, though I don't feel like calling people, I am on this forum writing posts. I pretty much look at it as the same. Writing, talking expressing yourself.

 

Cam

 

ps. If your seriously interested in getting to those levels of non verbal communication don't the Aboriginies know alot about that?

Edited May 29, 2006 by Cameron

[Ian]

I've been on five silent retreats over the last four years or so.

 

It was a wonderful experience for me each time.

It was particularly telling to experience how much energy was lost in a big rush once noble chattering started.

 

I think it was Timothy Leary who characterised most human conversation as "I'm still here, are you still there?"

 

I believe that sharing facts and experience is valuable.

 

My ambition, which I currently forget to even remember to try and begin, is to speak, and listen, with an awareness of the vibration of the sound in my body.

 

That way, in theory, I'll gradually come to a point where I don't say anything I wouldn't like to have in my body. Should cut it down a great deal.

 

If I ever get started, I'll let you know.

I

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[Cameron]

 

 

I wrote something on Cam's personal practice page that fits in here - unfortunately it's disappeared!

 

 

 

Hehe..sorry. Yoda left me a message after i did that .I think he probably had written more than anyoone after me in there so sorry if I erased anyones stuff they wanted saved. I am sorot of the fence about even having the personal online jounral. Yes, it's fun and it's mostly just us friends chatting anyway but when I think about it in terms of my life it is still just such a limited format in scope. And probably partly even ego driven. Something about NOT spouting off opinions of what I want or don't want or think is valuable or not is appealing to me right now. So if your not prepeared to burn up all your precious views write in my journal at your own peril! LOL!

 

Cam

[neimad]

ahh! well - that's not really about talking now is it? what you seem to be implying is you want to find a better way to interact with others... you may want to look into NLP since that is one of its biggest areas. People already do communicate very deeply - in fact every half a minute a person shows you their entire model of the world - their deepest desires and insecurities, you just have to be attentive to notice.

 

well yeah the overt aim is about communication.

 

but it is also about talking.... i am realising that we cannot effectively communicate with another if we are caught up in relating our own tales (forms 1 & 2). as someone else put it "i'm still here" speak.

 

from initial observations i am seeing that as i become increasingly aware of what comes out of my mouth (categorising it into whichever form it belongs, stripping away anything needless) that the entire flow of communication changes... the person i am talking with is more able to be themselves and their energy actually increases.

 

i am thinking that that will be the next stage.... is to become consciously aware of the flow of energy in a communication and either let the other person guide the flow (and then help them out so that whatever issue they need to resolve becomes resolved effectively and efficiently) or guide the flow myself to achieve any agenda i might have (probably less likely to occurr).

 

its amazingly interesting stuff.

 

thanks for the exercises though, i often engage in those kinds of exercises in cheng hsin and i have another one that i am just about to play with called "reach and withdraw" .... about saturating your focus on an object until you are entirely 'with' it... and then withdrawing your focus or intention completely until it becomes non-existant to you.

very interesting stuff this mind.

 

also i am becoming more aware of the links (anchors in NLP talk?) between thoughts, how an event can trigger a particular thought (usually about my ex... i have so much linked up with her) and i'm in the process of rewriting these connections.

 

the brain is an amazing thing..... more of this in another thread

 

things are truly changing literally every day for me. every day i have a deeper understanding of myself, there is no regression only progression. its awesome and seems that there is even a slight exponential factor involved!

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[neimad]

it's not about letting someone lead/guide the flow or you leading guiding them - communication is more like a dance - or like aikido - you follow then you lead, push then pull... but you have to know where you want to lead someone before doing this kind of thing.

 

understood... i can't explain accurately what i have experienced and what i mean, it's just interesting. perhaps i was wrong to use words like lead and guide.... but i experienced the flow of the conversation with someone yesterday.... it was very unusual and i am unable to put it into words, but thats what i want... all the time, with everyone because it's beautiful and the other person cannot help but feel happy.....

 

It seems to me that you dont yet have a clear idea of what you're trying to achieve.

 

i'd prefer it if you didn't put your standards upon me. life is a game, this existance is my experience and my experiment.

do you have a clear idea of what it is you are truly trying to achieve with anything it is you do?

 

as far as i know this kind of clarity about every single action one undertakes doesn't really exist, perhaps this is what enlightenment is about?

 

i am just playing my game and enjoying it... i have nothing else to do in this life.

 

I know that sometimes it seems like you want to communicate in a way that doesn't lead anywhere - where it's about the dance, or about the flow of the aikido movements rather than the destination - but this flow is a destination in itself - it's just unconcious (and often best left that way, unless you have an adequate relationship with your unconcious). Also this kind of conversational dance happens very rarely and only with the right sort of person at the right sort of time...

 

i think this kind of communication can happen with anyone at any time if you cultivate the right level of awareness, which is my eventual hope.

 

Why do you want to communicate more effectively? if you were able to communicate at the level you feel is the most productive (level 5?) what would you do? what are you really trying to achieve? I'd recomend to really delve into that question a little - it's important. You could get a formula 1 car and be able to drive it but if you dont have a destination then the car is just a frivolous toy....

 

a state of presence. appropriateness for the situation. wu-wei. harmony. balance.

 

anything and everything i do is geared towards that.

[neimad]

i'd like to reframe the second tier of verbal communication.... from being aware of every conversation i have and which category my speech falls into, i feel that the second level needs altering a little.

 

the first 4 are very obvious, and obviously also unnecessary.

 

so instead:

 

5) responding.

discussed before.

 

6) probing. this is generally asking questions to get the other party to talk about themselves. it could be done in different ways, but most useful is to allow the other party a level of comfort and at an even higher level an oppurtunity to resolve their own issues.

 

7) teaching.

discussed before.

 

 

these are my own categories that i am coming up with, i haven't read them anywhere... it's merely observational.

i intend to stay mostly in these 3 areas.... except when appropriate to go into one of the first 4 forms.

 

to go back and give a more finite answer to this experiment than merely the pursuit of wu-wei (freeform, i did go away and think about it some more) it's because i often find that i lose myself in meaningless conversation in one of the first 4 forms. i talk excessively about myself and my own experience and have what i think are ineffective communications.

 

also something from one of carlos castanedas books really struck me (actually a lot from those books struck me, whether they were phony or not.... there were some incredibly powerful teachings present in his books! i have no interest in following his path, but the path of the warrior as outlined by don juan.... woah) and that was about erasing the past, about not talking about yourself and creating the air of mystery.

 

i feel the urge to cultivate about myself an ability to just dissapear.... to be invisible (stuart wilde also talks about this kind of stuff, in an entirely different manner and very funny).

 

so i guess it's kind of about destroying a layer of my own ego.

 

i have only had two frivolous conversations today... and by frivolous i mean that i strayed into an inappropriate usage of one of the first 4 forms. it's not about whether the conversation is meaningful or not, it's about myself and my own discipline. i am prepared to discuss anything, but if its something i want to discuss i must get there by skilful means (using probing and responding).

 

i seriously think i am onto some very powerful stuff here, i urge anyone else who is willing to take this experiment with me to give it a shot..... but of course feel free to redefine everything in your own terms and outline the experiment as suitable for you.

 

i am a teacher to noone but myself.

 

p.s. i can even possibly see some crossover between my self designed forms of communication, and the chakra system.... interesting. all in all though its not important.

Edited May 30, 2006 by neimad

[Lozen]

Clarissa Pinkola Estes tells a story of when she decided to take a vow of silence. She was going to school, working, and had I believe three kids. She had a disembodied voice dream that said, "When you are perfect, you will be fit not to speak."

 

I can understand the value of letting go of extraneous conversation, esp. conversation that is divisive or gossip-y or angry or signifies attachment. But I think communciation is extremely important for building connections...

[neimad]

Clarissa Pinkola Estes tells a story of when she decided to take a vow of silence. She was going to school, working, and had I believe three kids. She had a disembodied voice dream that said, "When you are perfect, you will be fit not to speak."

 

I can understand the value of letting go of extraneous conversation, esp. conversation that is divisive or gossip-y or angry or signifies attachment. But I think communciation is extremely important for building connections...

 

 

i'll say it again.....

 

talking is not the only form of communication, nor is it the most effective way of building connections. letting go of extraneous conversation allows more time to be spent on deeper levels of communication..... and i still think we all have the potential to talk without our mouths anyway.... we can never just shut up enough to realise that.

i've given and received telepathic communications before, so i know it's possible... i've just never spent the time to really work on it.

 

all too often we are so caught up in thinking about what we want to say to the other person while they are talking, that we actually miss everything they are saying (with their mouth, body and energy field).

 

this is about INCREASING the ability to communicate effectively, not eliminating communication.

it's not about silence.... it's about speaking appropriate to any given situation.

 

by becoming aware of which form of speach you are using, you begin to increase vigilance of your thoughts and also begin to bring another practice of wu-wei into your life..... it's about truly listening to another, allowing them to communicate with you and then responding appropriately to them giving them exactly what it is they are looking for from you.

 

it's all about the thoughts, i am becoming increasingly aware that one of the important keys to unlocking enlightenment is in the vigilance of thoughts.... of taking this bitch we call the brain (mind) and taming it to our will, rather than letting it run rampant like it does now.

i know that so many spiritual people out there say the same thing.... stillness of mind, etc.... but i'm coming to these conclusions on my own rather than taking anything anyone else says at face value.

[Lozen]

That's what they say in Buddhism too, to limit unnecessary conversation.

[GrandTrinity]

talk is cheap

 

actions speak louder than words

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[neimad]

what is a meaningless conversation? what is a meaningfull conversation? how do you know what type of converstaion you are having? you dont have to answer me - but it will be usefull for you to answer this for yourself. try not to put the answer into this number-map context... just remember a time when you where having a meaningfull conversation and notice how it feels, where in your body do you feel this? this is about experiential understanding and not logical.

 

 

That's exactly it! This is why I suggested the attention drills to you... while communicating, if you have your attention inside of you you're gonna be 'doing your habitual patterns' instead of paying attention to the person outside of you. This happens very automatically - you need to train yourself to keep your attention outside of you when communicating... yes it can be helpfull making logical distinctions like your system - but if you want to actually change your unconcious behaviour you'll need to train yourself. It's a case of getting out of your own way.

 

Once you unconciously and automatically shut up on the inside and start paying attention on the outside you can have seemingly innocuous, frivolous small talk, but both you and the person you're speaking to walk away with a deep connection and a satisfying glow - it becomes easy and effortless to do it any time.

 

 

all valid points freeform and thanks for the suggestions.... i take them as suggestions, even though it appears that the dialogue is actually an attempt to teach me.

would you like to be my puppetmaster and decide how i structure my life and experimentation?

 

i reacted as if there was an attempt to impose a standard upon me because of the language used.... i know it's not the case but it comes across as if i am a pupil and to follow the instruction given.

 

i am training myself, i am creating games and exercises for myself to train me to be more conscious of my thought patterns. i am using a structure that is applicable to me.

 

if this kind of experiment is something that you, freeform, has engaged in before then please discuss the results obtained, the methodology used and the experiences that occurred. i would be most interested to read about them.

 

if not, why is it that i am being instructed?

 

i'm not trying to be confontative here, i'm just following a precept of communicating anything that comes up for me.... and what came up for me from your posts was that there was an attempt to guide me.

 

 

much love though.

 

(i highlighted elements of the previous reply just to show the kind of language being directed at me).