[TTC Study] Chapter 15 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Time for the next Chapter.

 

Chapter 15

 

 

John Wu

 

THE ancient adepts of the Tao were subtle and flexible, profound and comprehensive.

Their minds were too deep to be fathomed.

Because they are unfathomable,

One can only describe them vaguely by their appearance.

Hesitant like one wading a stream in winter;

Timid like one afraid of his neighbors on all sides;

Cautious and courteous like a guest;

Yielding like ice on the point of melting;

Simple like an uncarved block;

Hollow like a cave;

Confused like a muddy pool;

And yet who else could quietly and gradually evolve from the muddy to the clear?

Who else could slowly but steadily move from the inert to the living?

He who keeps the Tao does not want to be full.

But precisely because he is never full,

He can always remain like a hidden sprout,

And does not rush to early ripening.

 

 

 

English/Feng

 

The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.

The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable.

Because it is unfathomable,

All we can do is describe their appearance.

Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.

Alert, like men aware of danger.

Courteous, like visiting guests.

Yielding like ice about to melt.

Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.

Hollow, like caves.

Opaque, like muddy pools.

Who can wait quietly while the mud settles?

Who can remain still until the moment of action?

Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfillment.

Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change.

 

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

1. The one who was skilled at practicing the Way in antiquity,

2. Was subtle and profound, mysterious and penetratingly wise.

3. His depth cannot be known.

4. It is only because he cannot be known

5. That therefore were I forced to describe him I'd say:

6. Hesitant was he! Like someone crossing a river in winter.

7. Undecided was he! As though in fear of his neighbors on all four sides.

8. Solemn and polite was he! Like a guest.

9. Scattered and dispersed was he! Like an ice as it melts

10. Genuine, unformed was he! Like uncarved wood.

11. Merged, undifferentiated was he! Like muddy water.

12. Broad and expansive was he! Like a valley.

13. If you take muddy water and still it, it gradually becomes clear.

14. If you bring something to rest in order to move it, it gradually comes alive.

15. The one who preserved this Way does not desire to be full;

16. Therefore he can wear out with no need to be renewed.

 

 

 

Comments?

[manitou]

This is one of my favorite chapters in the TTC.

 

It describes all of the character traits of the Sage. The one I really like is 'Hesitant, like crossing a wintry stream'. What an image. Why not a summery stream, or a spring stream? It occured to me one day that it's because a wintry stream is frozen. The Sage walks as though he is on frozen ice and is very careful about his next step.

 

Also, Lin Yutang interprets the sentence about Yielding Like Ice On The Point of Melting, a little differently. He says 'Self-effacing, like ice beginning to melt', which indicates to me a little more of the going into personality aspect of self-awareness, as opposed to merely 'yielding to another's way'.

 

'Simple like an uncarved block of wood...' In trying to personalize this, I realized one day that there are many voices inside me. Sometimes I will say something and it will instantaneously remind me that someone from my background would have said it exactly the same way, using the same words. In particular some of my old police partners, often forceful personalities....their faces will actually come to mind if I say something in the fashion that they would have said it. (I know I'm not making any sense here, I think it's coming..) What I'm getting at is that I had a personal realization that I am a compilation of oh so many people I've known and somehow merged into my personality in the subtlest of ways. They all seem to live inside me, whether I'm in awareness of them or not.

 

To become as uncarved wood would be to get underneath all the voices, to find the original voice of self. As long as I've studied the Tao, I find that I am still not The Genuine Wood Article because these faces will sometimes still flash in front of me; I realize that one more time I have borrowed a strand of personality from another and incorporated it into my being. I guess it could be said that we're a tapestry of others, because we were brought up by others and exposed to others before we had a more enlightened mindset. We were sponges in many cases. But perhaps the ultimate enlightenment is to really get down to the piece of wood.

[Marblehead]

Hi Manitou,

 

True, we can never return to the uncarved block. But we can destroy the inaccurate images we project by being as true to ourself as possible instead of trying to live up to someone else's exprectations.

 

Yes, I use this chapter often when I am asked what some of the characteristics of a sage are. Starting off with this set the ground rules and the discussion cnan continue on from there.

[strawdog65]

Another version

 

From: Tao Te Ching, on the art of harmony

Translated by: Chad Hansen

 

 

 

15.

 

 

Original Intent

 

 

 

 

Those in ancient times who mastered being scholars

Were mystifyingly subtle and inscrutably penetrating.

So deep they cannot be comprehended.

Generally, precisely because they cannot be comprehended,

We are forced to use constructs to imagine them.

 

Cautious- like crossing a stream in winter.

 

Ambivalent- Mmm! As if fearing those on all sides.

 

Exacting- Mmm! As if a guest.

 

Mutable- Mmm! As ice on the point of melting.

 

Unaffected- Mmm! As uncarved wood.

 

Munificent- Mmm! As a valley.

 

Obscure- Mmm! As muddied water.

 

While muddy, who can gradually become clean with calmness?

While tranquil, who can gradually come to life with relentless activity?

Whoever secures this way

Doesn't desire filling.

Generally, precisely because unfilled,

Hence they can shroud established forms.

[Marblehead]

I like the last six lines.

 

Although they might have been confusing if this was the only translation I had ever read, the lines are speaking indirectly to the concept of Wu Wei.

[manitou]

Could someone explain to me how a guest is 'exacting'?

[Marblehead]

Could someone explain to me how a guest is 'exacting'?

 

No. Hehehe.

 

Although I remember a label that goes "A perfect guest".

 

Hard telling why Chad selected the word "exacting" in that line.

 

Perhaps one of our Chinese reading members can help?

[Apech]

Could someone explain to me how a guest is 'exacting'?

 

If I came to stay at your place you'd quickly understand :lol:

 

... seriously that doesn't seem to match the other translations ...

 

Also don't like the 'timid' in one translation ... is a sage timid - I don't think so. I hope one of our Chinese scholars can give us the low down on some of these words...

 

BTW I really like this chapter ... like a guide on being a warrior ... but I think it has to clear that it is not based on fear of any kind .... but sensible caution ...

[Marblehead]

BTW I really like this chapter ... like a guide on being a warrior ... but I think it has to clear that it is not based on fear of any kind .... but sensible caution ...

 

Indeed. We must never confuse fear with caution.

[Procurator]

No. Hehehe.

 

Although I remember a label that goes "A perfect guest".

 

Hard telling why Chad selected the word "exacting" in that line.

 

Perhaps one of our Chinese reading members can help?

that word 嚴 means "respectful" and also "strict in conduct", probably chad meant "exacting in his duties of a guest."

[phore]

I thnk that they may appear timid because they are egoless. They see the world as a gift to be recieved. A perfect guest realzes that a gift has more meaning when it is offered out of love than one that you have to ask for. A sage would not let egotistical desire tarnish the destiny a wu wei approach to life allows to manifest naturally.

the sage appears to do no work because the universe puts everything he needs along his path. The great businessmen inherit money. great sages inherit the universe.

 

this reminds me of something jesus said.

blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth.

[Marblehead]

that word 嚴 means "respectful" and also "strict in conduct", probably chad meant "exacting in his duties of a guest."

 

Thanks much for the input!

[Marblehead]

I thnk that they may appear timid because they are egoless. They see the world as a gift to be recieved. A perfect guest realzes that a gift has more meaning when it is offered out of love than one that you have to ask for. A sage would not let egotistical desire tarnish the destiny a wu wei approach to life allows to manifest naturally.

the sage appears to do no work because the universe puts everything he needs along his path. The great businessmen inherit money. great sages inherit the universe.

 

this reminds me of something jesus said.

blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth.

 

Hi Phore,

 

Nice comments.

 

And to the last sentence, yes, meek, not weak. Big difference between the two words. But I think we are not talking about the physical earth but rather 'our world', that is, our inner essence. You know, that place where we find peace and contentment.

[manitou]

I think the concept of meekness goes to humility.

[Marblehead]

I think the concept of meekness goes to humility.

 

I'll buy that.

[Easy]

Hey,

 

Some thoughts on Chapter 15:

 

1) The first line has always bothered me a little because of the reference to the sages of antiquity and the fact they are described in the past tense. Mercia Eliade, an excellent scholar, coined a phrase for this perspective: "nostalgia for paradice," a sort of romantic illusion that there was a legendary time when people were wiser and magic was afoot. It makes me wonder if the author or authors of the TTC and all the translators and interpreters since were wise in their decision to bring that illusion forward. For me the first line contains a major flaw in "production values" because it causes me to stop immediately and challenge the image as a counterproductive fantasy. The author/interpreter loses credibility for the entirety of the chapter even though there is wisdom throughout. But that might be a minor and purely personal point, perhaps I am being too exacting.

 

2) Re: "Meek" and "Timid" equaling the state of "Egoless." This is certainly not the time or place for this debate but elsewhere I will contest the lionization of egolessness every time. For example, although he is a romantic legend, I see Zhongli Quan as first among immortals and he was not an egoless sage. If egolessness is a paramount quality than the traditional portrayal of Zhongli constitutes a fundamental inconsistency in the primary canon.

 

3) It appears in the versions of Marblehead's opening post and elsewhere that the most difficult part of the chapter to translate is the last two lines. By putting the variations intuitively into a much broader context, I would guess that the Henricks translation comes very close to a valuable contemporary meaning:

 

15. The one who preserved this Way does not desire to be full;

16. Therefore he can wear out with no need to be renewed.

 

But it is bettered by the Thomas Cleary translation that is found here:

 

15.5 Those who preserve this Way do not want fullness. Just because of not wanting fullness, it is possible to use to the full and not make anew.

 

I put that forward as a guess because it seems to describe in properly veiled poetic style the importance of the cyclically balanced cultivation of qi.

 

4. Manitou wrote--I think the concept of meekness goes to humility.

 

This is true but I am not sure these are the qualities that one would want in a sage. It is my experience that humility is acquired conditioning just as much as arrogance. A balance is more in order. I would guess that a judicious and circumspect application of neutrality, or either one or the other depending on the circumstance would be a sagacious model above a simple dialectical negation of both into total lack of affect.

 

5. Having just checked into this subforum and having just read the pinned Please Read page, the part that said the discussions of the TTC's day to day application was just as welcome as hermeneutics on the text is still fresh in my mind. In that light I want to say that Chapter 15 reminds me of what I once wrote concerning contemporary sages I have known. It was quite brief, almost an aside to a blog post on a different topic:

 

"I have found in a few rather rare instances people whose autonomy of mind is as well developed as their level of self-awareness. They seem not to have any need for belief. They seem whole in both heart and mind. Next to their qualities, belief appears to bespeak a failure of self-reliance, a failure of will."

 

Later I was asked to expand on those four sentences and that essay can be found here. (It is a little lengthy so those afflicted with the common syndrome of Internet AADD need not attempt it.)

[Apech]

Hey,

 

Some thoughts on Chapter 15:

 

1) The first line has always bothered me a little because of the reference to the sages of antiquity and the fact they are described in the past tense. Mercia Eliade, an excellent scholar, coined a phrase for this perspective: "nostalgia for paradice," a sort of romantic illusion that there was a legendary time when people were wiser and magic was afoot. It makes me wonder if the author or authors of the TTC and all the translators and interpreters since were wise in their decision to bring that illusion forward. For me the first line contains a major flaw in "production values" because it causes me to stop immediately and challenge the image as a counterproductive fantasy. The author/interpreter loses credibility for the entirety of the chapter even though there is wisdom throughout. But that might be a minor and purely personal point, perhaps I am being too exacting.

 

... <snip>

 

 

Interesting comments. Nearly all ancient cultures saw time or perhaps history differently to us. They refer back to an original golden age and see all that comes after as (mostly failed) attempts to get back to that time or to reflect it. For instance the Biblical garden of Eden or in Ancient Egypt the Sep Taui (First Time). So the language of this chapter probably reflects a generally held idea that in ancient history things were much better than now .. sages were real sages and so on. Whether this is just an kind of literary device to make the reader aspire to something higher or actually an appeal to the way in which man lived before 'civilization' occurred is a matter of debate. Probably a bit of both.

 

Even to day in for instance martial arts you often here tales of long dead great masters who were 'true masters' compared to whom the current teachers are mere shadows and so on ... so the tradition lives on.

[Marblehead]

Hi Easy,

 

Great post!

 

Yes, I am sure there will be many opportunities to speak of an egoless state (if there is such a thing).

 

I actually do believe the suggestion that things were better in the past (ancient times) in that the population was much smaller, plenty of resources for everyone, villages were small and self-supporting, those able to work worked, and those unable to care for themselves were cared for.

 

My teenage years were spent in the US of A during the 1950s. Those were great times for Americans. I often look back to those times and wish my country could somehow return to those days.

 

And I agree, by not being full (especially of ourself) we are able to take on more but yet give out just as much as we have recieved. But we still have enough so we can thereby endure.

 

In your quoted section: "... Next to their qualities, belief appears to bespeak a failure of self-reliance, a failure of will."

 

and I would add, a failure in being able to take full responsibility for our actions. What easier way is there than to be able to blame our faults on someone or something else?

[manitou]

Lin Yutang's version, the last lines:

 

He who embraces this Tao

Guards against being over-full.

Because he guards against being over-full,

He is beyond wearing out and renewal.

 

(Then he has a footnote on 'over-full,' and it indicates 'self-satisfaction, conceit'.) This seems to go to having the ego at one's disposal, having tamed it. We all need some ego to stay out of the oncoming traffic.

[majc]

Some thoughts on Chapter 15:

 

1) The first line has always bothered me a little because of the reference to the sages of antiquity and the fact they are described in the past tense. Mercia Eliade, an excellent scholar, coined a phrase for this perspective: "nostalgia for paradice," a sort of romantic illusion that there was a legendary time when people were wiser and magic was afoot.

Yeah I agree this is pretty key. I changed exactly this for the same reason a couple of weeks ago at some point during another stupid argument with TianShi about governance.

 

If you take a literal, broken-english reading of the first line to be "In doing study of skillful [men] of history..." the rest follows much better from there. And then, un-breaking the English:

 

---------

 

We study skillful men of old.

 

But their subtlety defies explanation.

Their clarity can't be described.

 

All we have left to speak of is how they appear...

 

So aware, as if crossing a frozen river.

So enthused, as if enveloped in risk.

So attentive, as if a humble guest.

 

So effortless, like ice becoming water.

So genuine, like uncarved wood.

So open, like a great valley.

So complete, everything interwoven.

 

Who can allow their own waters to clear?

Who can not force and let action arise by itself?

 

Those who are walking this path

aren't trying to attain it.

 

So far as there is no sense of arrival,

they keep going.

 

http://www.openwisdom.org/tao-te-ching/#15

Edited January 4, 2011 by majc

[majc]

Tweak.

 

All we have left to speak of is how they appear...

[phore]

Hey,

 

Some thoughts on Chapter 15:

1) The first line has always bothered me a little because of the reference to the sages of antiquity and the fact they are described in the past tense. Mercia Eliade, an excellent scholar, coined a phrase for this perspective: "nostalgia for paradice," a sort of romantic illusion that there was a legendary time when people were wiser and magic was afoot. It makes me wonder if the author or authors of the TTC and all the translators and interpreters since were wise in their decision to bring that illusion forward. For me the first line contains a major flaw in "production values" because it causes me to stop immediately and challenge the image as a counterproductive fantasy. The author/interpreter loses credibility for the entirety of the chapter even though there is wisdom throughout. But that might be a minor and purely personal point, perhaps I am being too exacting.

 

I think that this is lao tzus way of saying that sages have been around longer than anyone can remember.

 

I think that the Yellow Emperor ( an ancient master who predates Lao Tzu) was probably a hero of Lao Tzu in his youth. To him the Yellow Emperor would be considered a sage of antiquity.

The yellow emperor probably had some even more ancient master as a role model. We as taobums admire the sages of antiquity ourselves, otherwise we wouldnt put so much stock in the tao-te-ching (which happens to be written by a sage of antiquity)

 

 

In fact, some anthropologists (like terrence mckenna) believe that during the early stages of human societies, before the concept of ownership and egos arise, we live in more harmonious and balanced social structures.

 

European pagans hold that before the rise of the current unbalanced patriarchal western society and the industrial revolution, we all lived out in the woods practicing our native forms of spirituality which included alchemical transformation and harmony with nature.

 

I see history as a series of civilizations rising and falling, resulting in a series of light and dark ages. In the light ages technology and knowledge develop. In the dark ages we return to harmony with nature and balance.

[Mr. T]

a few comments i figured i'd add since i have a different translation...

 

The Tao masters of antiquity

Subtle wonders through mystery

Depths that cannot be discerned

Because one cannot discern them

Therefore one is forced to describe the appearance

 

Hesitant, like crossing a wintry river

Cautious, like fearing four neighbors

Solemn, like a guest

Loose, like ice about to melt

Genuine, like plain wood

Open, like a valley

Opaque, like muddy water

 

Who can be muddled yet desist

In stillness gradually become clear?

Who can be serene yet persist

In motion gradually come alive?

 

One who holds this Tao does not wish to be overfilled

Because one is not overfilled

Therefore one can preserve and not create anew

 

translation by derek lin

 

 

 

i remember hearing how the usage of the plain block reference for pu implied that the wood had already been worked somehow into a block shape ready to be carved. when in actuality, it is subtler to say plain wood that has not yet even been shaped into a block...i like that imagery...plain wood...

 

the last few lines are still somewhat puzzling to me, and i like how a few of the other translations and comments here have put that in a different light.

[Marblehead]

i remember hearing how the usage of the plain block reference for pu implied that the wood had already been worked somehow into a block shape ready to be carved. when in actuality, it is subtler to say plain wood that has not yet even been shaped into a block...i like that imagery...plain wood...

 

Yes, plain wood, I think is better. As is new-born babe or new-born calf. But the term "uncarved wood" is so descriptive in my mind I will probably keep it.

 

 

 

 

Hey Majc! I enjoyed that translation you presented. Thanks.

[Apech]

Mr. T,

 

Thanks for that translation.

 

There's one line though I can't understand:

 

"Who can be muddled yet desist"

 

it doesn't seem to mean anything to me.