[TTC Study] Chapter 15 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dust]

So the question would be, in my mind, did Henricks add words that weren't there?

 

 

WW

 

The ancients who have mastered Tao

are subtle and attain the ultimate, and

are profound beyond comprehension.

*this "profound" being translation of a different word, 深, which H translates as "deep"

 

 

 

Henricks

 

Those who were good at being noble in antiquity

Were without doubt subtle and profound, mysterious and penetratingly wise

So deep that they cannot be known

 

 

 

WW says simply "attain the ultimate" where H says "profound, mysterious and penetratingly wise"

 

If WW is as you say the most literal, H has indeed added words in.

[Marblehead]

 

If WW is as you say the most literal, H has indeed added words in.

But remember, everything I say is based on what others have said and how I understand what I have read. In a way I'm glad I can't read Chinese and therefore can never say that I know how it should be.

 

And then I try to keep in mind what Chuang Tzu said about once we understand the concepts we can forget the words.

 

I think the word "profound" is used intentionally for emphasis. "Deep" doesn't present this emphasis.

[dust]

I know it seems small, "crying" over a few extra words, but to me it suggests that a translator hasn't grasped a central idea in the chapters: fewest words, biggest emphasis; choose few words carefully and imply many different meanings. The Chinese does this, whereas I'm afraid many English translations don't.

 

And I would agree that WW's is more literal than H's, in that it uses these fewer words, though I wouldn't necessarily agree that the choice of words used is better.

Edited October 16, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dawei]

Good point. I'm not clear on how Taoism (especially BCE) connects with creational mythology.

Are we sure that these wonderful Taoist writers bought into all that? Surely the Way was the source? (and then 1, 2, 3...万物)

 

Ah... you should read Heavenly Questions by the basically contemporary Chu poet, Qu Yuan...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Questions

http://www.cjvlang.com/Pfloyd/quyuan.html

http://www.astronomy2012.org/dct/attach/Y2xiOmNsYjpwZGY6MjcyOTg=

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mythology

 

If Laozi was, as people say, around from 500BC or so, and predates Nvwa, is she relevant..?

And if these texts were being developed a bit later.. well, the GD was written sometime around the creation of Nvwa, in Chu, and

 

I don't see how Nuwa is after the GD... She and Fuxi represent the tribal maybe paleolithic settlement beginnings.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_%28state%29#Culture

 

Which suggests that, in the GD at least, this myth might not have held much weight, if it was known at all?

 

Chu was considered a 'barbarian' state, for the northern areas... I take it as their shamanism and spiritual aspects made others quite uncomfortable.

[dust]

Ah... you should read Heavenly Questions by the basically contemporary Chu poet, Qu Yuan...

 

Well, I'm glad you brought this up! I've skimmed it, but no patience to thoroughly read a rhyming translation of a poem (imo, a very silly idea)

 

I did look at the Chinese a little..

 

曰遂古之初，谁传道之？

 

Hey, beginning of time, who put it all (Dao) here?

 

(...)

 

女娲有体，孰制匠之？

 

Nvwa existed, but who made her?

 

So... OK, Nvwa was known in Chu! But Qu's questioning her existence -- who made her? -- in the same way he's questioning things in the rest of the poem. What, then, makes us think this questioning wasn't common in Chu, and that the Taoists responsible for the GD weren't of the same questioning mindset?

 

I'd like to think that they were..

 

 

I don't see how Nuwa is after the GD... She and Fuxi represent the tribal maybe paleolithic settlement beginnings.

 

I wasn't saying she's supposed to have existed after the GD, but that she didn't appear in literature till 350BC, and thus wasn't necessarily known to all people in China before then. Every myth has a beginning. I now see that she most certainly was known in Chu by then

 

 

Chu was considered a 'barbarian' state, for the northern areas... I take it as their shamanism and spiritual aspects made others quite uncomfortable.

 

Leading on from above (Qu Yuan questioning everything), if the Chu were decadent and Taoist and Shamanistic, and not very Confucian, and there were people questioning things... I still want to suggest that they might have been less inclined to believe ideas about a big woman creating nobles and commoners separately out of clay...

Edited October 16, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Below is my translation and commentary of Chapter 15 in the Guodian texts of the Dao De Jing. I've changed some but not all of the modern characters to Classical.

 

 

 

长古之善爲士者，

The exemplary actions of the ancients who studied (nature/the way)

必非溺（弱）玄達，

What is certain is that (we can)not plumb the depths of their mysterious comprehension

What is certain is that they did not drown upon reaching the depths of mystery.

(“not 溺drown” is poetic, relating to 深depth and 玄deep/dark/mysterious. Either or both of these translations make sense to me. To put these words in English is a bit like describing a sunset to someone who isn't looking at it. It's a bit of that, and a bit of this, but it's all very open to how you look at it.)

深不可志。

The depths (of which) cannot (be fully explained with any amount of) determination

是以爲之颂：

Therefore I proclaim them as such:

夜乎奴（如）冬涉川。

Night travellers! Like in winter crossing a river

(夜 dark also means “in the dark.” I would suggest this is actually a contrast to “planning/careful,” as in they move steadily and quickly. When travelling at night or over a frozen stream, you get it done quickly and with determination. You don’t take your time.)

 

猷乎其奴（如）畏四邻。

Planning! They were like fearing neighbours on all sides

敢其奴（如）客。

Bold and courageous, they were like (roaming) travellers

(Curious that 敢bold and courageous was changed to 儼 grave and respectful in later copies. I suspect this is because ke客 was assumed to mean “guests” rather than “travellers.” “Night travellers” in the previous lines suggests that ke was in fact talking about brave travellers. Daoists have always been associated with roaming, too, have they not?)

涣乎其奴（如）怿(懌)

Scattered! They were as though enjoying themselves

(scattered is written as dispersed water)

 

屯（敦）乎其奴（如）朴(樸)。

Stationary! They were as though simple trees

 

沌（原字从土）乎其奴（如）浊(濁)。

Chaotic! They were as though sand stirred up in the water

竺（孰）能浊以朿者，

Who can be like stirred up water, and penetrating

 

將徐清。

Then becoming quite and calm, clear and pure(?)

竺能仄以往者，

Who can be at formerly at rest

 

将余生。

Then becoming lively

保此道者

Those who preserved this way

 

不谷趟吐

Did not choke when the time came

(not sure what to make of this last line. The image “not-valley-time-spew out” conjures an image of emptiness, like that profound silence that seems to make some people choke. Very obstruse.)

 

 

 

To me, the chapter suggests that “when the ancient masters were still, they were stationary like trees; when they were moving, they were like travelling the paths at night; when they were enjoying themselves, they were like spraying water; when they were unpredictable they were like sand kicked up into the water. They changed with the time of the moment. When they were calm, they could instantly change to fast and penetrating. When they were fast and penetrating, they could instantly change to tranquil. Flexible and yielding, depending on the time, just as the I Ching counsels actions must be.

 

This is also very much the way of Chen style tai chi chuan. Slow, relaxed, and calm, and thunderously powerful. Thunderously powerful and then slow, relaxed, and calm. A Taoist art for certain.

 

 

 

[edits made to first 3 lines, see below for details]

Edited October 16, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dust]

I'm really happy that you've used the GD text and left many character meanings intact

 

As is my wont I have a few areas I disagree with, but it's nice to see someone else toying with different ideas!

 

It's getting late, but would like to comment on the first few lines (for now!)...

 

 

长古之善爲士者，

The ancient noble masters of the mountains

 

Why mountains?

 

必非溺（弱）玄達，

What is certain is that (we can)not plumb the depths of their mysterious intelligence

(“not 溺drown” is poetic, relating to 深depth)

深不可志。

The depths (of which) cannot be written

 

Why intelligence?

 

Yes, 溺 has had me slightly confused. My own take is:

 

必非溺玄達深不可志 Surely were not drowned in mystery or deep beyond ambition

 

达 is used in the Book of Rites as "unimpeded"..not sure what to make of that

On the slip is written 志 , without 言. Both Confucius and Mencius used 志 as "(one's) will" or perhaps "ambition"

 

是以爲之颂：

Therefore I proclaim them as such:

 

Yes I like

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Why mountains?

oh, whoops - thanks for the correction. I took that from my Mawangdui translation which had 屳.

 

I've changed that to:

 

长古之善爲士者，

The exemplary actions of the ancients who studied (nature/the way)

 

Why intelligence?

 

達 means to reach/arrive at, but also "understanding" and comprehension

 

I'll change that too, to

 

"What is certain is that (we can)not plumb the depths of their mysterious comprehension"

 

 

Yes, 溺 has had me slightly confused. My own take is:

 

必非溺玄達深不可志 Surely were not drowned in mystery or deep beyond ambition

 

玄xuan means deep, but also mystical, so drowned is lyrically connected there as well as with the following lines "the depths of which cannot be written."

 

Perhaps it might equally be said

 

"What is certain is that they did not drown upon reaching the depths of mystery."

 

This seems to connect with the last line, for me, about not choking when the time was nigh. I'll change it to that too.

 

 

达 is used in the Book of Rites as "unimpeded"..not sure what to make of that

not sure, but it was also used to mean "extended to, arrived at," example:

 

達於諸侯

"... (This rule) extended to the feudal states"

 

 

On the slip is written 志 , without 言. Both Confucius and Mencius used 志 as "(one's) will" or perhaps "ambition"

志 also means "records" perhaps since "determination" is related to finalizing something, as making a record of it puts it into historical reality.

 

It seems like "the depths of which cannot be affirmed," but which would suggest "not written" by the following sentence "therefore I speak it as such."

[dust]

You're doing much better than me. I haven't dared post my translation yet...

 

 

玄xuan means deep, but also mystical, so drowned is lyrically connected there as well as with the following lines "the depths of which cannot be written."

 

My "deep" was actually the deep of the next line, 深. I was playing with those lines being connected

 

必非溺玄達深不可志 Surely were not drowned in mystery or deep beyond ambition

 

I realize how clunky it is..

 

志 also means "records" perhaps since "determination" is related to finalizing something, as making a record of it puts it into historical reality.

 

It seems like "the depths of which cannot be affirmed," but which would suggest "not written" by the following sentence "therefore I speak it as such."

 

Ahh. OK. I'm gonna think on that.

Edited October 16, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

stationary like trees;

stationary was trees

[Taoist Texts]

.. I still want to suggest that they might have been less inclined to believe ideas about a big woman creating nobles and commoners separately out of clay...

 

May be. But Lao-zi did apparently did believe in Di being an intermediate creator.

 

道德經:

道沖而用之或不盈。淵兮似萬物之宗。挫其銳，解其紛，和其光，同其塵。湛兮似或存。吾不知誰之子，象帝之先。

Dao De Jing:

(The fountainless)

The Dao is (like) the emptiness of a vessel; and in our employment of it we must be on our guard against all fulness. How deep and unfathomable it is, as if it were the Honoured Ancestor of all things! We should blunt our sharp points, and unravel the complications of things; we should attemper our brightness, and bring ourselves into agreement with the obscurity of others. How pure and still the Dao is, as if it would ever so continue! I do not know whose son it is. It might appear to have been before God.

http://ctext.org/dao-de-jing

[dust]

吾不知誰之子，象帝之先。

 

Yeah, I've tried explaining that away, as some others have done...

 

It seems to be the common ancestor of all, the father of things --Feng

 

I don't know whose child it is. It is older than the Ancestor --Addiss

 

...but it does seem that these are just attempts not to bring "god" into the book. The author of this chapter does seem to have been talking about a god.

 

However, in thinking about the GD by itself, I / we don't have to worry, as chapter 4 isn't part of it it

[dust]

 

涣乎其奴（如）怿(懌)

Scattered! They were as though enjoying themselves

(scattered is written as dispersed water)

 

This has been another major bother for me.

 

The first character looks to me to be 觀 观

 

and 懌 is the closest I can find to the last one, but in terms of actual structure, it looks a lot more like

 

白

夫

_心

 

...or, something similar that's actually a character...

 

Not sure if you might have thoughts on either of these?

[Marblehead]

Scattered! They were as though enjoying themselves

I actually like that a lot.

[dust]

(not sure what to make of this last line. The image “not-valley-time-spew out” conjures an image of emptiness, like that profound silence that seems to make some people choke. Very obstruse.)

 

Me neither. I think the standard transcription is wrong.

 

I just found an excellent transcription source for the GD which is far closer to the original than anything else I've seen.

(what makes me very happy is that it agrees almost entirely with my own transcription thus far; what makes me sad is that I didn't find it weeks ago!)

 

Most of the characters are not recognized outside of the pdf so aren't copyable, but

 

http://www.docin.com/p-6986227.html

 

 

 

Based on that, my own work, and some insights from you (edit: all of you!)..here's mine so far (I've left the contentious parts as open to interpretation as I can):

 

長古之善為士者 The noble ones of old

必非溺玄達深不可志 Surely did not drown in mystery, deep beyond ambition;

是以爲之頌 They can be described as

夜唬奴冬涉川 Cautious, like one crossing a winter stream,

猷唬亓奴畏四粦 Lost, like one scared from all sides,

敢唬亓奴客 Solemn, like a guest,

觀唬亓奴懌 Hopeful, like joy,

屯唬亓奴樸 Simple, like uncarved wood,

坉唬亓奴浊 Muddled, like mud;

竺能浊以束者將余清 Of the muddy, that which can be still will become clear;

竺能仄以迬者將余生 Of the imperiled, that which can move forward will live;

保此衜者不谷尚呈 One who maintains this Way desires not to stand tall

Edited October 17, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dawei]

May be. But Lao-zi did apparently did believe in Di being an intermediate creator.

 

Or maybe... Laozi believed in Di being an intermediate part of creation

[Harmonious Emptiness]

This has been another major bother for me.

 

The first character looks to me to be 觀 观

 

I think it looks much closer to with the hands, etc., an older version of 涣scattered

 

 

and 懌 is the closest I can find to the last one, but in terms of actual structure, it looks a lot more like

 

白

夫

_心

 

I don't really see that for this. I haven't gone in depth with the ancient scripts, but I can see how it's a bit close to with a different marking for the eye above it, and having "heart" below the phonetic rather than beside it. "Spy" plus "heart" means "enjoyment." Also, the Mawangdui text has 淩澤 "crossing a marsh." "Marsh 澤" has the same phonetic as for "enjoyment," but with "water" to the left of it, giving the meaning of "marsh," rather than "heart" giving the meaning of "enjoyment."

 

What's interesting there, though, is that the word for "澤marsh" also means "the place where water gathers / a marsh / grace / favors / kindness / brilliance / radiance / luster / bright / glossy / smooth / to benefit / to enrich," so maybe the word in the MWD text was meant to say something about crossing over to brilliance.

 

I suppose maybe we would have to look at another word that has "heart" to the left of the character, and see if it appears beneath the character in the Guodian text. If it looks the same (sort of teardrop with a line through it), then we will have more to go on one way or the other.

 

I think the fact that the MWD scibe(s) read the phonetic the same way suggests that this is in fact the phonetic of the character.

 

Otherwise it might just be saying "So dispersed, he is like a spy."

 

Oddly, the MWD text has

浼呵亓若淩澤

Asking favour, he is like crossing a marsh.

 

But! 浼 has "免 evade" as the phonetic, with "water" to the left of it again. If "water" wasn't on either phonetic of the first and last words, the sentence in the MWD text would read "免Evasive, they were like 睪spies 淩 passing through."

 

This could contrast with the preceding line in the Guodian "bold, like (invited) guests."

 

Thank goodness we're more certain about other parts of the text.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dust]

 

 

Based on the article by 張駿龍 Zhang Junlong I'm actually going to suggest that we were both wrong.

And I happily bow the the greater erudition of a young Chinese man studying these texts!

 

 

I think it looks much closer to with the hands, etc., an older version of 涣scattered

 

張駿龍 Zhang Junlong has used a character that makes even more sense.

 

"[unpastable]，或通“遠”，意注目遠望"

(edit: [unpastable], also "yuan (far)", as in "yuanwang (looking into the distance)"

 

I'm not sure where anyone first saw "water" or "hands" in this character in the GD. I think that some scholars simply didn't know what to make of it and so just used the MWD version.

 

Though the upper-right portion isn't as clear, there is very clearly a variant of 見 on the left (same as can be seen in the last line of ch.19, strip A2), and at the bottom (right) we can recognize a 止 foot radical.

 

 

 

I don't really see that for this. I haven't gone in depth with the ancient scripts, but I can see how it's a bit close to with a different marking for the eye above it, and having "heart" below the phonetic rather than beside it. "Spy" plus "heart" means "enjoyment." Also, the Mawangdui text has 淩澤 "crossing a marsh." "Marsh 澤" has the same phonetic as for "enjoyment," but with "water" to the left of it, giving the meaning of "marsh," rather than "heart" giving the meaning of "enjoyment."

 

Again, Zhang Junlong has found an excellent modern variant of the actual character, which can be seen in the article.

 

"釋爲此，音“譯”，喜悅，心胸開闊、心曠神怡"

(edit: interpreted as: sounds like "yi”, meaning happy, relaxed")

 

So 懌 would fit quite well, it seems.

Edited October 20, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I don't know. I did a search on the early forms of the words suggested by 張駿龍 and they don't appear any more similar or sensible imo. Guess we'll agree to disagree.

 

btw, for the sake of those who don't read Mandarin very easily, including myself, if you don't mind adding a quick translation for characters.. tnx..

[dust]

I don't know. I did a search on the early forms of the words suggested by 張駿龍 and they don't appear any more similar or sensible imo. Guess we'll agree to disagree.

 

Nobody disagrees with me!

 

 

btw, for the sake of those who don't read Mandarin very easily, including myself, if you don't mind adding a quick translation for characters.. tnx..

 

Oh! I assumed you read Chinese, as you've done such an excellent job with the text.

[Marblehead]

Nobody disagrees with me!

I will if it will make you feel better.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

yeah, it's rare there aren't one or two words I have to look up in a sentence. Also, I haven't studied the modern characters so sometimes words I do know, I don't recognize. I just started with Classical characters and grammar and investigate each character in different contexts, etymologies, etc. to figure out what they must mean. So my memorized vocabulary is very limited.

[dust]

yeah, it's rare there aren't one or two words I have to look up in a sentence. Also, I haven't studied the modern characters so sometimes words I do know, I don't recognize. I just started with Classical characters and grammar and investigate each character in different contexts, etymologies, etc. to figure out what they must mean. So my memorized vocabulary is very limited.

 

In one way, at least, it probably makes understanding these texts easier. When I look at Laozi, Sunzi, Kongzi etc, I have modern meanings stuck in my head for many characters, though they didn't necessarily mean that at the time. Modern characters can have fewer meanings than they did back then, as many original meanings have been lost. I guess you often don't have these preconceptions..?

 

Actually, apart from the fact that I (obviously!) don't know every character there is, having lived on the mainland and learning 简体字 simplified Chinese, I'm still learning to recognize 繁体字 the traditional stuff. So you're not alone. I'm often looking up meanings in simplified, traditional, and ancient...

 

We're all just muddling through

Edited October 20, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I guess you often don't have these preconceptions..?

 

A lot of the dictionaries will follow them too, so it's difficult to know which is which. I figure the meaning of individual radicals etc. were still more "fresh" so I usually go from there and look for poetic images. My purpose in translating the text is to see what hasn't been translated, so the first order of business is basically avoiding assumptions.