[TTC Study] Chapter 15 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

(Gently pulling down my copy of Derek's translation just in case Mr. T doesn't see your post...)

 

His notes to that line read:

 

"The image of muddy water becoming clear refers to the gradual revelation of the master's inner qualities. The masters had tremendous depth, so it would take time for people to really know them."

 

But I think this doesn't fully address "Who can be muddled yet desist"

 

Okay. Define words first.

 

Desist: To stop. To cease a process or act.

 

Muddled: Confused. Lacking clarity.

 

So, rephrasing the question we might have something like:

 

Who can be confused and lacking of mindful clarity 'and' stop the process of being confused by means of their own confused thought processes?

 

Here we have a mind that is over-full. The only way to end the confusion is to empty (at least partially) the mind of the causes of the confusion thereby allowing room for clarity (clear thinking). Of course, in order to do this we must first rest our mind.

 

Did that help or only add to the lack of understanding?

Edited January 5, 2011 by Marblehead

[Apech]

(Gently pulling down my copy of Derek's translation just in case Mr. T doesn't see your post...)

 

His notes to that line read:

 

"The image of muddy water becoming clear refers to the gradual revelation of the master's inner qualities. The masters had tremendous depth, so it would take time for people to really know them."

 

But I think this doesn't fully address "Who can be muddled yet desist"

 

Okay. Define words first.

 

Desist: To stop. To cease a process or act.

 

Muddled: Confused. Lacking clarity.

 

So, rephrasing the question we might have something like:

 

Who can be confused and lacking of mindful clarity 'and' stop the process of being confused by means of their own confused thought processes?

 

Here we have a mind that is over-full. The only way to end the confusion is to empty (at least partially) the mind of the causes of the confusion thereby allowing room for clarity (clear thinking). Of course, in order to do this we must first rest our mind.

 

Did that help or only add to the lack of understanding?

 

Yep Marbles thanks ... I think I was trying to read the single line instead of the two together i.e.

 

Who can be muddled yet desist

In stillness gradually become clear?

 

 

which ties in more or less with what you were saying.

[manitou]

I see history as a series of civilizations rising and falling, resulting in a series of light and dark ages. In the light ages technology and knowledge develop. In the dark ages we return to harmony with nature and balance.

 

 

I like this. It seems like in so many ways we are heading toward the dark ages (I equate this with religious fundamentalism on the rise, our rape of the planet, and the incredible disparity between wealth and poverty in the world). It's nice to think that there's an actual viable reason for this; to return to harmony with nature and balance.

[Marblehead]

Yep Marbles thanks ... I think I was trying to read the single line instead of the two together i.e.

 

Who can be muddled yet desist

In stillness gradually become clear?

 

 

which ties in more or less with what you were saying.

 

Yeah, I think that line (or two lines) is technically correctly translated but it is not very literally valid, IMO.

[Mr. T]

howdy all...

 

to get back to apech and marblehd, i personally don't have too much to add to that. thanks marble for fillin' in the gaps! i am guilty of the same thing apech, reading only a single line and applying it to situations or attributing some absolute truth to it. that has proven to be somewhat dangerous...

 

those two lines look even different when considered along with the other two lines in the section...two questions that point out more abilities of the sage. and it is interesting that the are opposites in way...the mind full of commotion becoming clear and calm and the calm, tranquil mind being capable of creative action...

 

i also like the "uncarved wood" language and agree you should probably keep it!!

[Marblehead]

i also like the "uncarved wood" language and agree you should probably keep it!!

 

Thanks for the support.

 

 

those two lines look even different when considered along with the other two lines in the section...two questions that point out more abilities of the sage. and it is interesting that the are opposites in way...the mind full of commotion becoming clear and calm and the calm, tranquil mind being capable of creative action...

 

Now you are paying attention. Hehehe.

[dawei]

the last few lines are still somewhat puzzling to me, and i like how a few of the other translations and comments here have put that in a different light.

 

SECOND AND THIRD TO LAST LINES: There is not much variation from translators:

保 此 道 者 不 欲 盈 。

Those who hold to this Way do not seek fullness

 

夫 唯 不 盈

Because they are not [seeking to be] full

 

----

 

LAST LINE:

 

Modern version, Wang Bi text

故 能 蔽 而 新 成

They therefore contain [all things] without [needing] renewal

They are covered over and newly completed (being covered, you cannot put anything more in, yet they are completely full)

 

Wang Bi text has a number of changes from the older text to convey a covering (cover over) and the ending lost it’s explicit “not” and added “new” before the last word. But the ending is often inferred with a “not”

 

是以能敝而不成 – MWD

They are broken down but not needing renewal

He is worn out but can that be?

 

The MWD has “worn” instead of cover and ends with “yet not completed/accomplished”. The last two words can also be a compound in a rhetorical sense of, “can this be so?” Implying, that it is so.

 

Both ways give me the same similar feeling to the idea in chapter 48 where it says that: follow Wu wei and nothing is left undone (everything is complete or full)

 

---

Variations on Last Line:

 

Following Wang Bi text:

He can always remain like a hidden sprout and does not rush to early ripening. - Wu

they are not swayed by desire for change. – English/Feng

Therefore one can preserve and not create anew - Lin

Hence they can shroud established forms. – Hansen

it is possible to use to the full and not make anew. – Cleary

 

Following older MWD text:

Therefore he can wear out with no need to be renewed. - Hendricks

He is beyond for things wearing out and renewal - Chan

He is beyond wearing out and renewal. – Yutang

even the worn out need not be renewed – Liao

he can be both old and new – Zhengkun

And you’ll wear away into completion - Hinton

Edited February 27, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

[Aaron]

Here's my translation of chapter 15...

 

 

What has been handed down is good.

One who wishes to become a scholar

must see through the mysterious,

but they cannot by will alone

inquire into what is right by nature,

should not one act with respect, be hesitant?

 

Shouldn't they approach the mysterious

as if they were deciding to cross a stream in winter?

As if they were considering the stern warning of their neighbor?

Are they not merely travelers ready to leave?

Shoud they not consider it is natural for the ice to be melting?

Should they be like the simple and confused?

 

Those whose minds are murky,

those who can become murky,

are those who can become still.

 

One who is murky can slowly become clear,

they can be peaceful and change others positions,

they can slowly live and grow,

keep safe the Way,

and never desire to be full.

[Marblehead]

Back to the drawing board with this one. Hehehe.

 

Way too clunky and the concept seems to be missing.

[Aaron]

Back to the drawing board with this one. Hehehe.

 

Way too clunky and the concept seems to be missing.

 

Actually I like this translation, even if it may be off the mark. Something rings true for me. Anyways, I kind of get the feeling sometimes that a lot of translators translate based on what other translators have come up with, rather than the actual text. When I read this particular chapter from the Guodian slips, I can't figure out how other people translated it the way they did.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Actually I like this translation, even if it may be off the mark. Something rings true for me. Anyways, I kind of get the feeling sometimes that a lot of translators translate based on what other translators have come up with, rather than the actual text. When I read this particular chapter from the Guodian slips, I can't figure out how other people translated it the way they did.

 

Aaron

 

Hehehe. I guess that is why I couldn't figure out why you translated it the way you did.

[ChiDragon]

夫 唯 不 盈,

故 能 蔽 而 新 成 。

 

So, only when it was not filled completely,

Therefore, the old can be replaced with the new.

 

Interpretation:

Only when one is not complacent, therefore, there is room for discarding old ideas and to be replaced with new ones.

[Marblehead]

So, only when it was not filled completely,

Therefore, the old can be replaced with the new.

 

Ah! The tea cup. We fill the tea cup and leave it filled there is no room for fresh tea. Either drink your tea (share your wisdom) or throw out the stale tea.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 15

1. 古之善為道者，

1. In the ancient times, those who were good to be Taoists,

2. 微妙玄通，

2. They were mysterious and esoteric,

3. 深不可識。

3. Abyss and incomprehensible.

4. 夫唯不可識，

4. Therefore, because it was difficult to comprehend,

(4. Because, only, they were incomprehensible,)

 

5. 故強為之容。

5. Then, it was difficult to describe them,

5. Thus, it was difficult to describe them as.

 

6. 豫兮若冬涉川；

6. Suspicious seems like walking on thin ice;

7. 猶兮若畏四鄰；

7. Hesitate Seems like in fear with the neighbors;

8. 儼兮其若客；

8. Cautious seems like a guest;

9. 渙兮若冰之將釋；

9. Affable seems like the ice is about to be melting;

10.敦兮其若樸；

10. Innocent seems like an uncarved woodblock;

11.曠兮其若谷；

11. Stern seems like a valley;

12.混兮其若濁；

12. Naive seems like murky water;

13.澹兮其若海；

13. Quiet seems like deep sea;

14.飂兮若無止。

14. Active seems like restless.

15.孰能濁以靜之徐清?

15. Who can be calmed in motion then slow down to become cleared?

 

16.孰能安以動之徐生?

16. Who can become active from stillness and advanced progressively?

17.保此道者不欲盈。

17. Those who kept these principles were not complacent.

18.夫唯不盈,

18. Therefore, only not being complacent,

19.故能蔽而新成。

19.Then, it can be replace the old with the new.

 

Edited September 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Oops....lunch time. Be right back.

To be continued

 

Did you drink your tea?

 

Lots of grammatical work to do on this one. You have the key concepts in there but I recognize them because I am very familiar with the chapter. A new reader, I think, would be lost.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 15 - The descriptions of the ancient Taoists

1. In the ancient times, those who practiced to be Taoists,

2. They were mysterious and esoteric.

3. They were abstruse and unfathomable.

4. It was because they were unfathomable,

5. Therefore, they were so difficult to be described.

 

6. They were suspicious seem like they were walking on thin ice.

7. They were hesitated seem like they were feared their neighbors.

8. They were cautious seem like they were guests.

9. They were affable seem like the ice is about to be melting.

10. They seem to be innocent like an uncarved woodblock.

11. They seem to be as broad as a valley.

12. They seem to be naive like murky water.

13. They seem to be quiet like deep sea.

14. They seem to be active as if they were restless.

 

15. Who can be calmed from motion then slow down to become cleared?

16. Who can become active from stillness and advanced progressively?

17. Those who kept these principles do not wish to be complacent.

18. It was because they were not being complacent,

19. Then, they can have some old ideas replaced with the new ones.

 

Edited:

Line 11 due to the mistranslation on the first attempt.

Line 14: Corrected grammar per Marblehead's suggestion.

Edited July 24, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

That is so very much better.

 

Two more comments though:

 

Line 11. The word "stern" is not compatible with the valley - the valley is the place of rest.

 

Line 14. They seem to be active as if they were restless.

 

Other than that I think you did very good here.

[ChiDragon]

That is so very much better.

 

Two more comments though:

 

Line 11. The word "stern" is not compatible with the valley - the valley is the place of rest.

 

Line 14. They seem to be active as if they were restless.

 

Other than that I think you did very good here.

Thank you. I am glad to have you as my counterpart and catch my mistakes.

 

Sorry. I mistranslated line 11.

11.曠兮其若谷；

11. They seem to be as broad as a valley.

Edited July 23, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Thank you.

 

I mistranslated line 11.

11.曠兮其若谷；

11. They seem to be as broad as a valley.

 

Yeah. That'll get it!

[dawei]

Is it anachronistic to say "those who practiced to be Taoist"?

[ChiDragon]

Is it anachronistic to say "those who practiced to be Taoist"?

How would you translate this..???

古之善為道者.

[dawei]

How would you translate this..???

古之善為道者.

First off... your using a variation I would not personally follow.

 

The Guodian, Heshang Gong and Wang Bi use this line:

古之善为士者

 

English/Feng translate as:

The ancient masters

 

Chan:

Of old those who were the best rulers

 

Suzuki and Carus:

Those of yore who have succeeded in becoming masters

 

Lau:

Of old he who was well versed in the way

 

Yutang:

The wise ones of old

 

---

 

Second... if I were to use the Mawangdui, as Hendricks does translate, which uses Dao:

古之善為道者.

 

Legge:

The skilful masters (of the Tao) in old times,

 

Wu:

THE ancient adepts of the Tao

 

Tao-Kao:

In old times the perfect man of Tao

 

Zhengkun:

Those ancients who were well versed in the Tao

 

Duyvendak:

In olden times those skilful in the Way

 

---

 

None of this second group of scholars, sinologist, and translators say "Taoist". Because it is NOT what Laozi would of said. The idea of an school of 'ist' was not a concept in that time; so I personally would not translate it as 'Taoist'. Taoist has a very specific meaning today, which the first line is not suggesting, IMO.

 

I don't agree with most every line you translate into english. If the first line is not right; and I don't have time to explain the rest. I am sure you understand this in chinese; it's the english which seems to be a problem. It may be close but it's still lacking line by line, IMO. You can look at the most common translators who spent a lifetime translating to see the difference in a single line. I don't need to be the one to explain it when hundreds of translations are free to read as a check against the english.

Edited July 23, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

道: Tao

者: -ist; -er

 

道 + 者 = Tao + ist = Taoist

 

道者: those who follow the principles of Tao.

Those who follow the principles of Tao which are Taoists.

 

有道者: Those who have the moral principles or just "principles" which are Taoists.

 

In ancient time or temporal, that is how "有道者" was used to express someone that is a Taoist in the Chinese language. Those who are not familiar with the language may not think so.

[dawei]

Yes, the hundreds of sinologist and translators and people who devoted their lives to ancient text are not familiar with the language in the end. Thanks for clarifying that you are the Highlander; There can only be one, after all.

 

IMO, The oldest text had 'master'. I am quite satisfied to see ancient master rendered. When Laozi says it that way, we can know what he was a master of without having to say too much. That is his logic and way. I'll personally follow that.