Death

[Everything]

Hey all,

 

Making this topic in the hopes of receiving some wise words about death. Perhaps a paradoxical truth we have not yet heard. Let us talk about this.

 

I believe that we're to live as naturally as possible and include the full package and bla bla, whatever your concept of life is. Just live till you die...

 

Some people, however, desire death, and believe that while death is the destination of every man, anyway... They want to speed things up by taking their own life! They want to control the uncontrollable, so much, that they try to make it happen earlier then it is supose to happen, to validate the fact that they control death by changing its time and location. Perhaps their own suicide was fate aswell? I just think that their body is now being consumed by nature and that it doesn't matter. Who will ever know.

 

What do you think about death?

 

I know that the concept of death is the opposite of life, but I still believe we speak too little about it here in Tao bums. Maybe I've overlooked it, so I made a topic specificly about death. Please do not delve into the concept of death with your emotions too deeply. It can be deceiving to find yourself depressed after doing so and blaming the symbol of death itself, or perhaps even me.

 

Let the conversations begin.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Everything

[Sahaj Nath]

...

Some people, however, desire death, and believe that while death is the destination of every man, anyway... They want to speed things up by taking their own life! They want to control the uncontrollable, so much, that they try to make it happen earlier then it is supose to happen, to validate the fact that they control death by changing its time and location...

 

i haven't participated in a conversation around here in a while, but this might be a good one to explore.

 

i don't think i've ever met anyone who actually desired death. people who commit suicide most often desire escape from suffering, and the see death as their only means. very different implications, i think.

 

for me, understanding the processes of life and death and pleasure and pain, bring with them an understanding of the existence/construction of good and evil.

 

i think it's an excellent query with which to embark upon an authentic (non-contrived) spiritual journey. one that doesn't necessarily look like all the typical external trappings of religion.

 

i'm just throwing some stuff out here, in hopes of helping to get the conversation started.

[John Zen]

I think that when you die, you go back to the place you were before you were born: Oblivion!

 

I think this because consciousness requires a brain.

 

It'd be easy to think that you go to heaven when you die. It's easy to believe, because it's what you want to believe.

 

But when you reach a point where you look at things rationally instead of rationalizing the way you look at things, you will understand why heaven is a silly idea.

 

That's why it's so important to live a full and happy life!

[forestofclarity]

I think this because consciousness requires a brain.

 

Why do you say that?

[Gerard]

Focus on here and now, on every single thought and moment not in future events. If you do so, I can guarantee that you'll see life and death as one continuum and linear event. Basically it won't matter anymore; you will reveal your Buddha-nature and then who cares about anything else, you'll become the observer rather than a puppet of a larger game.

[exorcist_1699]

Death is not the destination of every man, death is only the destination of the mass and those " scientific-minded" experts . Some philosophers even bullshit that life needs death to provide itself meaning ...

 

After having attained the ability of initializing qi in your body , you find yourself grasp the crucial life force in your own hands,and get the initial condition of determining your destiny ;your life is no longer doomed to the so-called nature worshiped by many people here on this forum .

Edited January 3, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[phore]

Focus on here and now, on every single thought and moment not in future events. If you do so, I can guarantee that you'll see life and death as one continuum and linear event. Basically it won't matter anymore; you will reveal your Buddha-nature and then who cares about anything else, you'll become the observer rather than a puppet of a larger game.

I like this. Life and death on a cosmic level is the same as breathing in and out or waking up and going to sleep.

The way it makes sense to me is that,I am a spiritual being who is inhabiting and guiding a physical body through a lifetime. death is simply the end of one adventure preceding another, and i am traveler along the way.

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

I won't speak to the spiritual aspect of this subject at this time but only to the physical aspect.

 

Each and every one of us will experience physical death. That is a given.

 

It is my understanding of Taoist Philosophy that we are not to take any measures to hasten this process. In fact, we are told that we should do our best to preserve our life in order to live it to its fullest potential.

 

What we believe on the spiritual level is a matter of belief.

 

I think that the best attitude to have regarding death is that it is going to happen eventually so we best understand this and not make it as aspect of our living.

 

Now, I can understand that there are those who wish to end the pain and suffering of live - the terminally ill. I have often said that I will not be placed on machines and tubes inserted into my body to keep me alive a couple more months. I think that allowing the natural processes to have their way is best. When it is time to die - die. Until then - live.

[exorcist_1699]

Of course we are talking about physical death here.

 

Physical death can be due to:

 

1) Aging

2) Fatal diseases

3) Accidents

 

Here what we are concerned is whether Taoist qi practice can reverse aging and cure fatal disease or not . If it does ,at this moment, at this stage of our life, we can say that the superstition about every man 's doomed destiny towards death , towards the effect arranged by the nature (in reality, the post-heavenly form of nature appear in our eyes ) ,is somehow not unchangeable .

 

And, quite a large part of people who are forced to commit suicide are mainly due to the above-mentioned two factors.

[joeblast]

The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche is an excellent book on this.

[Everything]

So, all you out there claim that death IS something that will happen. So we might aswell let it happen and not even think about it. Fair enough.

 

Lets look at the other side of the coin. People who wish for it to happen later then it is suppose to happen. There is also your inner will to survive. You wont meet this part of yourself untill you actually face death, and it is huge. This ancient old reflex overrides the laws of your personality and behaviour. It will take over your body and mind in order to survive, unless you're already dead. This is why all the people who have faced death already desire immortality in some way. Entire industries are based on it. Even ancient men sought for immortality. Seems like Tao Te Ching also mentions immortality, but in a way that is beyond death. So in the Tao concept, even those who die can be immortals.

Living consciously in the present moment is a good example of connecting with your soul, so you may not loose it after death. But this is a concept that uses death as a symbol to enhance our everyday mental lifes. Death here is a new timeframe, and heavens and earth in these religious concepts are nothing more then your own habitual behaviour that causes these. This why every second is a rebirth for those who remain conscious enough to change their behaviour in order to reach the heavens in their current lifes. Thats not the death I'm talking about.

 

I my self, even though I believe we should live till we die, don't understand how ending your life early goes against the way of things. Your body and cells also have mechanisms to self destruct, like tumor cells. Some people might even want to end real physical suffering, not mental suffering, by ending their lifes in a less painful way. I believe that people who are dead are in peace because they no longer seek for a connection and oneness with the universe. They are it...

And those who desire life, have brought back people from the dead by resurecting them. Like doctors who resurected people who were dead minutes long. For me the concept of death and life does not mean much, because I also believe they are the same thing.

Dead people also have a consciousness, they just don't react in your timeframe for your to understand their understandings and reactions. They are similar to nature, being consumed by it and its infinite consciousness. Even we living are part of it, but project this truth on to the dead.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Physical death can be due to:

 

1) Aging

2) Fatal diseases

3) Accidents

 

Here what we are concerned is whether Taoist qi practice can reverse aging and cure fatal disease or not .

 

Well, we cannot stop aging. So we live in such a way that makes that process as slow as possible. In other words, live a healthy life and don't waste our life away. And if we stay healthy we will be less susceptible to diseases. And, of course, if we are cautious we can avoid most accidents.

 

No, I don't believe that the practice of Chi can reverse the aging process. However, I do believe that it can help to extend our life span and allow us a healthier life. And, of course, a healthier life means fewer diseases.

 

As to curing a disease, that is questionable for me. I am sure it can help in some cases.

[manitou]

On occasion when sex gets tantric, there is a golden ringing place that feels like pure energy. It is as though the body has decomposed and lightened to the point of pure light. As wonderful as this is, it also feels very close to death. This experience is also shared with my husband; it happens to both of us at the same time.

 

It just feels like you're in a current of being that is the Source. If this golden place is part of the death scenario, it will be a wonderful experience. I actually think death might be one of the best experiences of our lives.

[Everything]

On occasion when sex gets tantric, there is a golden ringing place that feels like pure energy. It is as though the body has decomposed and lightened to the point of pure light. As wonderful as this is, it also feels very close to death. This experience is also shared with my husband; it happens to both of us at the same time.

 

It just feels like you're in a current of being that is the Source. If this golden place is part of the death scenario, it will be a wonderful experience. I actually think death might be one of the best experiences of our lives.

This is true for the moment right before death. That is exactly why I made this topic. For those few seconds in my life. I can never forgot the experience, neither fully understand all the things that went trough my mind. Angry, fearful, couragious, assertive, happy, sad all at the same time. Weird. One example is how I saw that my sadness, when facing death was actually fear. This is how death showed me the way by acting couragious while actually feeling sad. Because I felt the full spectrum of all emotions together as my brain lit up. That is extremely paradoxical, as most sad people wont have courage in their mind even if it were the last thing they thought about. Sad about dieing and then acting couragious because you've accepted that you cannot control things. Then where does the motivation come from? This inner will to survive, it is limitless like a vessel.

 

The death itself might not be so pleasant. The enlightenement the moments before death brings us and the reason and motivation to live that we connect with is incredibly powerful. I call it the will to survive, and everyone has it burrowed deep down inside. It occurs in those moments where you're about to die and you have no plan B. Most of the people did not return from this place to share it with us, they are already dead. Some people suicided and survived to share that they did not actually want to died when they met this part of them selves, right on the last moment. It is similar to our cravings for food and sex, indeed. I believe it goes back as far as repitilians. One of our deepest cores is the will to survive / replicate and it can only be known when facing death, or perhaps seeing some attractive person, hehe.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

Also to add, this inner will to survive was something tribes of the past were familiar with. They used it to their advantage by using this to initiate maturity.

 

Same as the huge group of men gathering up together to increase their skills with women, they are being initiated into a more purposeful life in this way. While soldiers are initiated in a way that speaks more to your core of survival, rather then replication. Perhaps a combination of both for gangs who are recruiting fellow brothers. The motivation behind each of these rituals and initiations comes from your inner will to survive/replicate. Whichever one is used, the initiations and rituals of today are completely diffrent then those that have lasted thousands of years. The environment has changed aswell, so no one is to blame. If we understand this inner will to survive and the relation of death/love to our selves, perhaps we can invent more effective ways of motivating the people on the planet to grow mature, by developing better rituals. Perhaps even researching the ancient rituals to get the core out of those initiations and use it on our current lives.

 

Most people are currently pointed at sports and education... How will a combination of those garuantee for mature people in our planet? I wonder this aswell.

[suninmyeyes]

I actually think death might be one of the best experiences of our lives.

hahaI also think so and am certanly courious about it.Getting rid of body cage ,having a body free holiday!Nice.

I was near death for a while in recent past,and it made me ponder about it a lot,and wishing for it too due to lot of pain.

My death will be pleasant I feel,warm and welcoming,I know where to go.So I am not scared.

 

By the way this is not me being morbid but loving death as much as loving life.

We are dying right now (cells are aging by every second),or as Ramana Maharishi said:"Your head is already in tigers mouth".

Edited January 3, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[Otis]

No, I don't believe that the practice of Chi can reverse the aging process. However, I do believe that it can help to extend our life span and allow us a healthier life. And, of course, a healthier life means fewer diseases.

My experience is a qualified yes, that Chi practice can indeed reverse the aging process. Physically, I'm much younger than I was 10 (or even 20) years ago, in terms of my ability, endurance, flexibility, resistance to injury, reaction time, strength, etc. And I don't see an end to that process, within sight.

 

However, what I think I'm reversing is premature aging. I'm waking up a body that was never fully woken up as a child (and which was crashing in my 20's and early 30s), so I'm experiencing the vitality that was hidden from me in the masses of bound and atrophied fibers. I'm going from a contracted body to an open one.

 

I also believe that I am aging forward at the same time, so there are opposite forces at work. And I don't have a long view (just 10 years of practice), so I can't predict the future. For now, at least, most of the effects seem to be going towards getting younger.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Otis

[Marblehead]

However, what I think I'm reversing is premature aging. I'm waking up a body that was never fully woken up as a child (and which was crashing in my 20's and early 30s), so I'm experiencing the vitality that was hidden from me in the masses of bound and atrophied fibers. I'm going from a contracted body to an open one.

 

Hi Otis,

 

I accept what you have said in your post as long as we place the proper importance on this paragraph of yours.

 

This is a very important concept and I am glad you have recognized it.

[Otis]

Hi Otis,

 

I accept what you have said in your post as long as we place the proper importance on this paragraph of yours.

 

This is a very important concept and I am glad you have recognized it.

Absolutely. You won't hear me making any grand claims that aging is an illusion, or whatever. That's all way beyond my experience.

 

I do wonder, however, how much of the aging that we all take as inevitable, is really just some form of premature aging, like what I'm describing. Especially with sedentary lifestyles, which I think are pretty destructive/restrictive on body freedom. Everything that I've now reversed, once seemed inevitable and irreversible to me.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Otis

[Marblehead]

I do wonder, however, how much of the aging that we all take as inevitable, is really just some form of premature aging, like what I'm describing. Especially with sedentary lifestyles, which I think are pretty destructive/restrictive on body freedom. Everything that I've now reversed, once seemed inevitable and irreversible to me.

 

Hi Otis,

 

Although I have no data on it my guess is that a lot of our aging process is attributed to what you have described.

 

Yes, lifestyles have changed. How many of us grow our own food?

 

But then, improvements have been made in health care so the minor illnesses do not take our life very often anymore (at least in developed countries).

 

And it is true that once we attain a mind-set that life sucks we will naturally not give our health the proper attention it requires.

 

I think that regular activity, both physical and mental, is important to a good life. And I am sure that if we are experiencing a good life we will in fact live longer.

 

And worrying about dying is a waste of time because it is a given that we all will one day die.

[manitou]

Also, from a more shamanic perspective, a shaman will use death as an advisor, as Castaneda would say.

 

I kind of hate to admit this, but I've actually taken to picking up good-looking road kill and placing it off the road and back into the cycle of life - someplace where the vultures and crows can get to it. (Mind you, I don't pick the stuff up if it's too ugly). I do this for the very purpose of getting closer to actual death on a more real basis. I find that the practice has taken some power of the fear of death away from me. I can actually feel the difference.

 

It's also a way of participating in nature and I believe it has made me a little more sensitive to some things, hard to put into words.

 

It's also a way of being considered the town loon.

[Otis]

I kind of hate to admit this, but I've actually taken to picking up good-looking road kill and placing it off the road and back into the cycle of life - someplace where the vultures and crows can get to it. (Mind you, I don't pick the stuff up if it's too ugly). I do this for the very purpose of getting closer to actual death on a more real basis. I find that the practice has taken some power of the fear of death away from me. I can actually feel the difference.

 

It's also a way of participating in nature and I believe it has made me a little more sensitive to some things, hard to put into words.

 

It's also a way of being considered the town loon.

LOL at the "town loon". Sounds like a great practice.

[Everything]

Also, from a more shamanic perspective, a shaman will use death as an advisor, as Castaneda would say.

 

I kind of hate to admit this, but I've actually taken to picking up good-looking road kill and placing it off the road and back into the cycle of life - someplace where the vultures and crows can get to it. (Mind you, I don't pick the stuff up if it's too ugly). I do this for the very purpose of getting closer to actual death on a more real basis. I find that the practice has taken some power of the fear of death away from me. I can actually feel the difference.

 

It's also a way of participating in nature and I believe it has made me a little more sensitive to some things, hard to put into words.

 

It's also a way of being considered the town loon.

The fear of death can never truely be taken away, only forgotten. It is ingrained within you like your hunger for food. Infact, without a fear of death a couragious act would not be possible and thus taking away the definition of your confidence aswell. No matter how you look at it, every couragious act is the same as "facing a little bit of death." For example, people with borderline disorder don't recognize their own fears so well and thus stay low on confidence aswell. They act impulsively on their fears without knowing it.

 

You will feel more confident if you face dead animals without being whiny about it and not act impulsively on your fear or ignoring your fears in that way. The act you have just commited is couragious in a way and is related to death in that way. The same courage is required when a gun is pointed point-blank on your head. Either the courage to stay calm, or to act in a constructive way, whatever you think that might be. Funny thing is, you don't need confidence to act couragiously, but acting couragiously you will get confidence. Free will, the power of our soul. I think it speaks for itself when I say that a gun on your head is "facing more death" then picking up dead animals. Infact, dead animals tend to lean more towards the sad/angry side of the emotional spectrum.

 

What you did can also be seen as more assertive, rather then couragious. Depends on your ways of thinking. You decide on that one.

 

Oh, and thanks for sharing your experiences on facing death.

[phore]

Many native cultures throughout history have sent their young men into the wilderness on vision quests. On this journey a person must face and conquer their fear of death, and open the door to true confidence and spirituality.

 

This fear of death- preserves life mentality speaks to me of a dualistic understanding of the cycle. The great sage preserves life because she loves life.

A sage sees death as the end of one phase preceding the next.

 

"To the well prepared mnd death is just the next great adventure."

-Albus Dumbledore

[manitou]

 

What you did can also be seen as more assertive, rather then couragious. Depends on your ways of thinking. You decide on that one.

 

Oh, and thanks for sharing your experiences on facing death.

 

I wasn't going so much for the courage on the dead animal thing as the awareness. Actually, I do have a couple facing death stories as a retired cop, and they're not related to dead animals.