Death

[Everything]

Many native cultures throughout history have sent their young men into the wilderness on vision quests. On this journey a person must face and conquer their fear of death, and open the door to true confidence and spirituality.

 

This fear of death- preserves life mentality speaks to me of a dualistic understanding of the cycle. The great sage preserves life because she loves life.

A sage sees death as the end of one phase preceding the next.

 

"To the well prepared mnd death is just the next great adventure."

-Albus Dumbledore

I think I understand what you're saying and I find this to be true aswell.

 

The well prepared mind is non-dualistic, but nonetheless well capable of feeling the fear of death. For him it becomes a great adventure, one where there is much to be experienced.

 

 

Having these kind of outlooks on the symbol of death will fill your life with more life.

[Everything]

Men flow into life, and ebb into death.

 

Some are filled with life;

Some are empty with death;

Some hold fast to life, and thereby perish,

For life is an abstraction.

 

Those who are filled with life

Need not fear tigers and rhinos in the wilds,

Nor wear armour and shields in battle;

The rhinoceros finds no place in them for its horn,

The tiger no place for its claw,

The soldier no place for a weapon,

For death finds no place in them.

 

This kind of adventure will surely come if you act couragiously on all your encounters with death. The confidence will, in theory, grow so much that you no longer encounter death. Infact, you shall seek to meet its glorious sight once again. Like the jack-asses, adrenaline junkies, etc. These are great examples of overly-confident men. Death finds no place them, the rhinoceros finds no place in them for its horn, etc.

 

This is where death ends, and life comes in. I believe that, dependent on the person, some people should seek to witness life more so then death, while others should seek to encounter more death then life. It will keep you balanced in your heart and mind. But knowing the two extremes, you also master everything in between. That why the Tao is so wonderful in its extreme teachings. Especially in the wonderful verse about death above.

[phore]

Men flow into life, and ebb into death.

 

Some are filled with life;

Some are empty with death;

Some hold fast to life, and thereby perish,

For life is an abstraction.

 

Those who are filled with life

Need not fear tigers and rhinos in the wilds,

Nor wear armour and shields in battle;

The rhinoceros finds no place in them for its horn,

The tiger no place for its claw,

The soldier no place for a weapon,

For death finds no place in them.

 

This kind of adventure will surely come if you act couragiously on all your encounters with death. The confidence will, in theory, grow so much that you no longer encounter death. Infact, you shall seek to meet its glorious sight once again. Like the jack-asses, adrenaline junkies, etc. These are great examples of overly-confident men. Death finds no place them, the rhinoceros finds no place in them for its horn, etc.

 

This is where death ends, and life comes in. I believe that, dependent on the person, some people should seek to witness life more so then death, while others should seek to encounter more death then life. It will keep you balanced in your heart and mind. But knowing the two extremes, you also master everything in between. That why the Tao is so wonderful in its extreme teachings. Especially in the wonderful verse about death above.

nice

[leo17]

I think that when you die, you go back to the place you were before you were born: Oblivion!

 

I think this because consciousness requires a brain.

 

It'd be easy to think that you go to heaven when you die. It's easy to believe, because it's what you want to believe.

 

But when you reach a point where you look at things rationally instead of rationalizing the way you look at things, you will understand why heaven is a silly idea.

 

That's why it's so important to live a full and happy life!

I'm not so sure I understood that. Could you explain more why it's important to live a full and happy life if you believe that you're not going to remember any of it when you die (since you will be brain-dead)? I mean why would living matter at all if you won't have consciousness to recall any of it?

[manitou]

"I'm not so sure I understood that. Could you explain more why it's important to live a full and happy life if you believe that you're not going to remember any of it when you die (since you will be brain-dead)? I mean why would living matter at all if you won't have consciousness to recall any of it?"

 

 

Maybe we just return to the consciousness stream - and although we have a physical brain perhaps we have a cosmic brain too that will remember. Maybe we don't have to remember, it's not necessary; as long as the soul develops to the intended point there may not be need for memory.

[John Zen]

Why do you say that?

 

In response to my statement: "I think that consciousness requires a brain."

 

I say that because there is not anyone who has ever existed that can tell us about their consciousness before their brain had developed. Mind requires matter, that's just my experience.

[John Zen]

I'm not so sure I understood that. Could you explain more why it's important to live a full and happy life if you believe that you're not going to remember any of it when you die (since you will be brain-dead)? I mean why would living matter at all if you won't have consciousness to recall any of it?

 

You seem to be placing value on memories. Memories are good because they are experiences of prior experience. You experience joy from recalling your marriage, for example, but it's nothing compared to the joy of the actual marriage. The experience itself that creates the memory is infinitely more valuable than the memory, because without the experience there is no memory. So I don't know why you think it is a problem that you not remember good experiences, when the good experiences themselves hold all the inherent value...

 

This life becomes, then, infinitely more important when you believe that there is no afterlife! When you know that this experience of life is all you get, you immediately gain incentive to maximize your happiness inside of it. I'm sorry if I cannot explain it better -- it is just something that you have to accept to understand.

 

I don't care if I recall any of this. I experience it every day. When I die, the pleasant experience will be gone, so I may as well maximize my pleasure and eliminate my suffering while I'm here.

 

Ataraxia, it is called.

[manitou]

I also believe that I am aging forward at the same time, so there are opposite forces at work. And I don't have a long view (just 10 years of practice), so I can't predict the future. For now, at least, most of the effects seem to be going towards getting younger.

 

 

We seem to be touching on something here that is more elusive than anything we've talked about in a while. What this discussion is triggering in me is the strange and unbelievable awareness that although my body is aging, there is a part of me that is returning to my childhood in my brain. I am getting more child-like in my thoughts and actions - I enjoy things more, I find myself giggling like a little girl sometimes. I find that all the inner dynamic magic anomalies that we try to share here is always an inside job. Our teachers can point to the moon on any of this stuff, but we have to internalize it in our very own way. And the way to internalize all the energy stuff involves simplifying our thoughts and our brains and our intents to the harmless and fluid state of an infant, it seems!

 

I have a general thought-picture of one who walks the Tao and is impeccable about the subtleties and the intent: a person standing in a flowing river, looking downstream, but walking slowly backwards, upstream. Almost like a 'back to the future', or even the reverse of that. There is a definite dichotomy between the aging process of the body and the unfoldment of the brain. It is aging in reverse, when we find the way! I get a sense that the backward aging of the enlightening brain is analogous to the end of a cosmic cycle within the universe. I think that the more of us who are experiencing the enlightenment process, perhaps we are the very moving force that is bringing the cycle to an end (if you buy into any of the Mayan cycle explanation). As we may very well be the big communal Manifester, maybe it stands to reason that with the advent of instant communications worldwide, that the quantities of enlightened thinkers will increase exponentially. We can only hope..

[Sloppy Zhang]

I don't think about death too often.

 

One day I thought, "where was I before I was born?" and while some people, when asked this, come up with some past life memory or whatever, I get nothing. Not "nothing" in a depressing or negative way. Just, absence of anything.

 

So I figure, if I die, and go back to that, then I wouldn't really care. As I wouldn't really be there to care. Anyway, sounds depressing I guess but..... eh.

 

Unless, you know, the Christians are right and I didn't exist until I was created when I was born and after I die I don't go back into the nothing, but instead move on to my afterlife

[Otis]

You seem to be placing value on memories. Memories are good because they are experiences of prior experience. You experience joy from recalling your marriage, for example, but it's nothing compared to the joy of the actual marriage. The experience itself that creates the memory is infinitely more valuable than the memory, because without the experience there is no memory. So I don't know why you think it is a problem that you not remember good experiences, when the good experiences themselves hold all the inherent value...

 

This life becomes, then, infinitely more important when you believe that there is no afterlife! When you know that this experience of life is all you get, you immediately gain incentive to maximize your happiness inside of it. I'm sorry if I cannot explain it better -- it is just something that you have to accept to understand.

 

I don't care if I recall any of this. I experience it every day. When I die, the pleasant experience will be gone, so I may as well maximize my pleasure and eliminate my suffering while I'm here.

+1

[3bob]

In response to my statement: "I think that consciousness requires a brain."

 

I say that because there is not anyone who has ever existed that can tell us about their consciousness before their brain had developed. Mind requires matter, that's just my experience.

 

Just dropping in, hope you don't mind?

 

With a handle like John Zen can I assume you've studied various Buddhist sutras? They are full of stories of Beings without physical brains and yet plently of consciousness that the Buddha gave his personal eye witness to... were such accounts all unprovable nonsense to you and if so what else along with them?

 

Om

Edited January 6, 2011 by 3bob

[Otis]

I have a general thought-picture of one who walks the Tao and is impeccable about the subtleties and the intent: a person standing in a flowing river, looking downstream, but walking slowly backwards, upstream. Almost like a 'back to the future', or even the reverse of that. There is a definite dichotomy between the aging process of the body and the unfoldment of the brain. It is aging in reverse, when we find the way!

I like this metaphor a great deal. I've had a similar one for my own relationship to the future: that I used to be trying (impossibly) to "crane my neck around" to see the future. Instead, now I face what I can actually see (the present and past), and trust that as I walk backwards into the unknown (with as much awareness as possible), that I will be able to handle whatever rough ground I stumble upon. (I also practice barefoot backwards hiking, so it's more than a metaphor, as well).

 

As for my own experience of anti-aging: it is certainly about training the mind first. Most of my early practice involved surrendering the alarms of "if I do this, I'll get hurt", which is all about the mind inhibiting the body. Even now, my practice is to step out of my habits, as much as possible, and then allow my body to lead me (in its own dance / stretch / tai chi / qi gung). It's just the practice of getting the mind out of the way, and trusting that the body has its own wisdom for how to move me.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Otis