Question to (formal) dancers who also taiji

[Taomeow]

I got a dancing lesson New Year's eve. Salsa and tango. I have never learned any formal dances in my life. I am pretty good improvising though, and have some nice experience -- I used to go to a barefloor dance studio in LA specifically dedicated to free dance expression, even professionals would go there just to get a break from the "rules" and let it all hang out, and me and my partner were so into that that other people would ask, "are you guys being paid to dance here?" So, that was then this is now. I was shown a bunch of formal moves and told to keep my back very straight and, as I understood it, stiff -- the teacher told me I have to aim for my shoulder blades to touch each other, or almost. This ran counter to all my taiji training. The position that was supposed to be right locked all the vital points I've spent a while to learn to open. It felt screwy. But it was my very first lesson only, so maybe I just don't "get it" yet and am missing out on some vital information or body dynamics? -- hence my question:

 

Are there any bums out there who do formal dances AND taiji, and if yes, what's the secret? How can one combine the postural requirements of a taiji back with the postural requirements of, e.g., the tango?

 

Any input will be much appreciated. I would like to take a few formal dancing lessons, but after my first go, the next day I had aches and pains and stiffnesses here and there that I've never experienced post-taiji, but used to experience all the time pre-taiji. So I don't know how good of an idea this formal dancing one is. Please help decide!

[Fire Dragon]

This is just an add on to your question though I have experienced a similar thing and also made a question mark in my mind.

 

I do some western kind of practises at a sport club. One of the things I do is pilates. In the kind of pilates they teach you are supposed to tigten the stomach and move it into closer to the spine. This realy is a contradiction to my qigong. Even after the practise they like to do a standing meditation for relaxation, quite close to iron shirt or other stading poses in qigong. Also doing this relaxation they like to put the navel into the spine. Well I guess the idea of putting the navel into the spine is a stabilisation exercise that is necessarily during some exercises that are demanding at the lower back, and while you put your navel in you stabilise the whole area. But why do it when standing and relaxing. It is so contradictory to everything I know about making the energy go smooth in the body, and it realy tighten things up. This makes me sometimes don't wana do the exercises.

 

Sometimes I feel that the pilates is just not working the right way for the body internaly. Even though I think I benefit some from the exercises if you look at it on a only physical level, for streantening core muscles for instance.

 

Just a similar question like Tao Maewses.

 

FD

[Otis]

I got a dancing lesson New Year's eve. Salsa and tango. I have never learned any formal dances in my life. I am pretty good improvising though, and have some nice experience -- I used to go to a barefloor dance studio in LA specifically dedicated to free dance expression, even professionals would go there just to get a break from the "rules" and let it all hang out, and me and my partner were so into that that other people would ask, "are you guys being paid to dance here?"

I gotta ask: did you used to go to Dance Home in Santa Monica? Or the 5 Rhythms jam? I go to both, every week!

 

As you might imagine, I am pretty devoted to improv dance (it's my best Qi practice, along with stretch), so I haven't been taking formal dance, as it always feels like the wrong direction. Too much concept-first.

 

I have, however, taken both salsa and swing in the past, and they have the same problem, between them. Salsa involves freedom at the hips, that is just not allowed in swing. Each has its advantages. (I've also taken Tai Chi, but haven't experienced a specific conflict with the dance I've taken).

 

The cool thing about Tango (IMO) is how the partners become one gravitational/inertial unit, rather than acting as separate planets, in orbit around each other. You can find that same exploration in Contact Improv, if it's local to you. And I have friends who teach both, and a hybrid of the two. But it does seem that you have to learn some artificiality in Tango, in order to enter into the form. I imagine that sense of strangeness will fade quickly.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Otis

[mYTHmAKER]

I am not a formal dancer but i will reply anyway.

IMHO your instructor might not be very good.

If you watch professional ballroom dancers most are top heavy as compared to taiji

That is why i only watched Dancing with the Stars once.

Check out the following videos Argentino Tango

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R03Z8kVSYw

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR6n6TJ-lS0&feature=related

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN0o_ZgdCL0

 

No tension - no shoulders pinched

[Andrei]

Hi Taomeow, I found the same incongruence when learned tango and salsa and I reached the following conclusions: Taiji is a martial art and is designed to teach you to defend yourself and to develop a sensitivity in the "personal space". The rules in Taiji are "open the back and close the chest" , "lower the energy in the dantian", and "be firm and grounded". These are obvious martial rules, that protects you, your "immortal embryo", your body from being unbalanced and your heart from being hurt.

 

In Tango the rules are exactly the reverse, open the heart, raise the energy in the chest suck the belly and be light footed and easy flowing. Open the heart to make a connection with the partner - which in this case is not an opponent as in a martial situation - , raise the energy in the chest to create emotion and listen to the control of the male partner which is supposed to lead. The connection between the two partners have to be at the eyes level (emotional) or at the head level (physical) and at the chest level (both emotional and physical).

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=opumFlUyEDg

 

 

This is a very good series: TANGOCITY: LEARN HOW TO DANCE TANGO IN YOUTUBE LESSON 1/20

 

http://www.youtube.c...ex=0&playnext=1

 

Tango Helena videos are very good and very easy to follow:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=tidNs0I7Mgw

 

In my opinion as a man tango dancer and former Taiji practitioner is much more difficult to dance with a woman and make her move as you lead than to fight or push hands with other guy. When dancing you create life energy, you create Yuan from emerging the two opposites Yin and Yang. I personally had to unlearn the Taiji to be able to drive a manual car, I had to learn to disconnect the various parts of my body to be able to switch gears. I found very interesting the process and of learning/unlearning different movements and how even more complex are added to the previous database. You know, the brain (the mind) functions holographic and nothing is lost, any information is only added in complex layers of interference patterns.

[Starjumper]

Gao Fu told me that if ballet dancers practiced tai chi that they would be more powerful dancers, and I will add, more elegant and flowing.

[devoid]

Hi Taomeow, I found the same incongruence when learned tango and salsa and I reached the following conclusions: Taiji is a martial art and is designed to teach you to defend yourself and to develop a sensitivity in the "personal space". The rules in Taiji are "open the back and close the chest" , "lower the energy in the dantian", and "be firm and grounded". These are obvious martial rules, that protects you, your "immortal embryo", your body from being unbalanced and your heart from being hurt.

 

In Tango the rules are exactly the reverse, open the heart, raise the energy in the chest suck the belly and be light footed and easy flowing. Open the heart to make a connection with the partner - which in this case is not an opponent as in a martial situation - , raise the energy in the chest to create emotion and listen to the control of the male partner which is supposed to lead. The connection between the two partners have to be at the eyes level (emotional) or at the head level (physical) and at the chest level (both emotional and physical).

 

Hi steam,

 

I never thought of it this way, but I think you managed to express it excellently.

 

Thanks!

[ben]

Gao Fu told me that if ballet dancers practiced tai chi that they would be more powerful dancers, and I will add, more elegant and flowing.

Can you imagine what Ba Gua would do then..Yin Fu ballet would be very cool.

[Pablo]

Eliminated due to the lack of replies.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Pablo

[Taomeow]

Eliminated due to the lack of replies.

 

Oh NO!!! I was just busy/absent at first, distracted into other threads later, and saving the best for last!

 

Pablo, I appreciated your input very much. (I sincerely thank everyone who responded and voiced opinions/advice/concerns and added links too.) It was GREAT, and pretty much something I was hoping to hear, from a hands-on ...um, legs-on... practitioner of both arts. And I loved the videos. If you still have a copy of your post, please repost, pretty please!

[Taomeow]

I gotta ask: did you used to go to Dance Home in Santa Monica? Or the 5 Rhythms jam? I go to both, every week!

 

Dance Home in Santa Monica!

 

As you might imagine, I am pretty devoted to improv dance (it's my best Qi practice, along with stretch), so I haven't been taking formal dance, as it always feels like the wrong direction. Too much concept-first.

 

I have, however, taken both salsa and swing in the past, and they have the same problem, between them. Salsa involves freedom at the hips, that is just not allowed in swing. Each has its advantages. (I've also taken Tai Chi, but haven't experienced a specific conflict with the dance I've taken).

 

The cool thing about Tango (IMO) is how the partners become one gravitational/inertial unit, rather than acting as separate planets, in orbit around each other. You can find that same exploration in Contact Improv, if it's local to you. And I have friends who teach both, and a hybrid of the two. But it does seem that you have to learn some artificiality in Tango, in order to enter into the form. I imagine that sense of strangeness will fade quickly.

 

I don't mind the form (I don't believe in taiji that goes into improvisation before a LOT of form work... "don't believe" is actually an understatement here), it's the kinetics that bother me... I remember reading in one of my first books on qigong ever read, by Ken Cohen, a description of the psychological implications of the physiological peculiarities of the "military stance" vs. the "qigong stance." Formal dancing seems to have this military-back stance built in, which is about either domination or submission or alternating/switching between the two. You know, like in the army they meticulously and purposefully create this top-heavy straight-back sticking-out-chest posture for both the soldiers who are going to obey orders and the commanders who are going to give them to the soldiers while obeying them when given orders by higher-rank officers, who in turn use this posture to command and obey, and so on. The posture of qigong (and taiji) has none of that, and in fact you don't do great in taiji by either domination or submission -- which is why it seems so counterintuitive to beginners who are usually coming from this domination/submission model of ALL relationships, with a matching body language. But I do believe it's a matter of figuring out how to bypass the teachers/teachings inspired by this paradigm (unconsciously I'm sure) and finding those who will teach the "one-unit" mode you're talking about. (In good taiji sparring, by the way, it is exactly this... not a competition and not a win-lose match but a win-win unity... of course in a hostile encounter it will be transformed, but that's a different context entirely. Many people who know how to taiji would be abandoned by their art in a real-life confrontation, because, well, taiji the practice ain't it, even though it teaches skills to use in "it" too.)

 

Thanks for your thoughts... and please send my regards to that awesome Santa Monica place!

[Pablo]

Hi Taomeow,

 

Good to see you liked the video! Unfortunately I didn't save the last post. A quick summary of it would be:

 

1. stance-embrace: roll your shoulders back vertically, not horizontaly, that will allow you to sink your chest. You lead with the shoulder-blades, not with your chest.

 

2. older tango style use an inverted V embrace, while "nuevo tango" (mid 90's onwards) uses a II opening & closing embrace (and leaves inverted V for a special dramatic effect or for "volcadas").

 

3. In Nuevo Tango, thrust (push & pulling) comes 70% from lower tantien and 30% middle tantien in males, in females the opposite.

 

4. Though Taiji and Nuevo Tango share some similarities like subtle manipulation of the "opponent" (push & pull by elastics), pushing from the ground vs falling into the step, sitting in the kua-femur heads before "sacadas" and other common moves, Tango is much more similar to Bagua because of the heavy use of upwards and downwards spirals.

 

Below a typical example of Nuevo Tango, dancing a zamba (native folk music) in a tango way. The film taken from the roof let you see clearly the spirals.

 

 

Other Tango Nuevo clip:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1dUZm6lbc

 

Older Tango Style:

 

 

And why not some Milonga too?

 

[Taomeow]

Pablo,

 

thank you very much. I'll start processing.

 

What do you mean by "roll your shoulders back vertically, not horizontaly?"

 

If "in Nuevo Tango, thrust (push & pulling) comes 70% from lower tantien and 30% middle tantien in males, in females the opposite," what happens to the legs? Nothing comes from the legs?.. What about weight distribution/commitment, what about full/empty legs -- is anything like this phased in in tango?

 

Upward and downward spirals (peng) are the bread and butter of Chen style -- are you comparing Bagua to some other style of taiji?

[Starjumper]

Below a typical example of Nuevo Tango, dancing a zamba (native folk music) in a tango way. The film taken from the roof let you see clearly the spirals.

 

 

 

sorry I didn't read the post but

 

WOW, that was awesome! It looked so much like expert beautiful bagua, and so HOT! I'm taking tango lessons

[Pablo]

Pablo,

 

What do you mean by "roll your shoulders back vertically, not horizontaly?"

 

When the teacher tells you to open your chest, try doing it as stated above. It's a relaxed way of openning it.

 

If "in Nuevo Tango, thrust (push & pulling) comes 70% from lower tantien and 30% middle tantien in males, in females the opposite," what happens to the legs? Nothing comes from the legs?.. What about weight distribution/commitment, what about full/empty legs -- is anything like this phased in in tango?

 

Of course, you're not floating LOL so you need your legs pushing up from the ground. Like Taiji, you sink your chest, let the energy drop down to the ground and rebound through your legs and push/pull outwards from your tantien. Weight distribution is 100/0 mostly, even in "open step" (though it may feel like 80/20 while leading "voleos". You always push from the base leg (full), and not falling into the next (empty) step.

 

Upward and downward spirals (peng) are the bread and butter of Chen style -- are you comparing Bagua to some other style of taiji?

 

Not at all! Just Bagua. You will eventually find some spirals going up and down your base leg, but what I'm talking about is thinking the human body as an X, a sand watch, an inverted cone on top of a cone, with the tops touching at tantien level. A circle at shoulder level triggers a circle at feet level (through a descending spiral), and the opposite too. Also, both circles can go in same direction or the opposite!

 

Best

[Pablo]

 

WOW, that was awesome! It looked so much like expert beautiful bagua, and so HOT! I'm taking tango lessons

 

Yeah, I love that clip. At first foreign people tend to see Tango as Hot, but once you get into the music and dance, you'll feel a whole range of emotions in a single song: desire, passion, sorrow, nostalgia, protection, anxiety, calmness, euphoria, hapiness, etc.

 

Hear with eyes closed all the sections you have in a single song:

 

 

Edited January 8, 2011 by Pablo

[Starjumper]

Yeah, I love that clip. At first foreign people tend to see Tango as Hot, but once you get into the music and dance, you'll feel a whole range of emotions in a single song: desire, passion, sorrow, nostalgia, protection, anxiety, calmness, euphoria, hap

iness, etc.

 

Hear with eyes closed all the sections you have in a single song:

 

 

 

That's amazing, thanks for pointing it out. I looked at the other videos, I think only the dancers in that first one I saw were sizzlin' (means very hot =) Is she married? =)

Edited January 9, 2011 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

I was lucky that a friend who was a fellow student (but dropped out) had an extra ticket for a performance at the UW by the four top Flamenco masters from Spain, three guys and one lady, all I can say about that is wow! I was hoping there would be more ladies, but I wasn't disappointed. The super hot superstar guy was out there under the hot lights, wearing a suit, and exercising his ass off, and his long black hair was soaked in sweat. Then he turned his head quickly and the sweat sprayed off in what looked like an giant explosion of light under the spotlights, very cool. I'll bet no one ever sees those guys on youtube =)

 

Also, those Tango movements which I called bagua style are also seen in some aspects of tai chi, also the blending. Now I get to watch it again on the big screen. Also the vertical shoulder roll is a base part of a lot of tai chi yielding applications

[Taomeow]

Thank you, Pablo, it was very helpful.