Words and qi

[exorcist_1699]

Originally classical Chinsese is a very "condensed" language which admires using least words to express as many as possible meanings of things around us .Taoist classical writing, Lao Tze , of course, is such an example especailly when being compared to Buddha 's huge amount of spoken words recorded in the sutra after his 40-year preaching .

 

However, when we come to the Taoised Zen, the significance of Chinese way of favoring simplicity once again appear, this time, pushing to its limit: Words is said to a barrier preventing people from understanding the Buddha Heart, any spoken word , or any change of our thought ,is said to be destracting us from the right way.

 

In reality, hardly can we think without using words and symbols ( includes mathematical symbols ) , a wordless spiritual process , of course, can't be viewed as any kind of reasoning or thinking . However, Taoism finds that it is this kind of process makes initialization of high quality of qi possible and easier. Any word is ,in fact, a casing mounted on our mind , restraining us from upgrading and expanding our qi ,and , the earlier and easier we get rid of it, the better and happier for our cultivation.

Edited January 4, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

A perfect example for why I say that there are certain words that have too many connotations for me to use without defining.

 

Funny, when I was reading that my thoughts went to Nietzsche who complained that the German language during his time was too vague and this is why he created many of his own new German words to express his thoughts more specifically. Just the opposite of the concept of what you said.

[al.]

Originally classical Chinsese is a very "condensed" language which admires using least words to express as many as possible meanings of things around us .Taoist classical writing, Lao Tze , of course, is such an example especailly when being compared to Buddha 's huge amount of spoken words recorded in the sutra after his 40-year preaching .

 

However, when we come to the Taoised Zen, the significance of Chinese way of favoring simplicity once again appear, this time, pushing to its limit: Words is said to a barrier preventing people from understanding the Buddha Heart, any spoken word , or any change of our thought ,is said to be destracting us from the right way.

 

In reality, hardly can we think without using words and symbols ( includes mathematical symbols ) , a wordless spiritual process , of course, can't be viewed as any kind of reasoning or thinking . However, Taoism finds that it is this kind of process makes initialization of high quality of qi possible and easier. Any word is ,in fact, a casing mounted on our mind , restraining us from upgrading and expanding our qi ,and , the earlier and easier we get rid of it, the better and happier for our cultivation.

 

A distinguishment should be made between different kinds of words, or rather, different kinds of speech. Although what you say is certainly valid, I think it may only apply to the more base forms of language. Robert Svoboda has written an excellent article on the Vedic understanding of this-

 

http://www.drsvoboda.com/sacredspeech.htm

 

As I understand it, once a certain level of cultivation has been made, words, whether composed of pure intention, mentally verbalised, visualised or externally spoken, can be infused with qi and awareness, and thereby act as conduits of truth.

 

When it comes to Empty Mind or Buddha Heart, I guess cutting out all words/thoughts/chatter is very important. But whatever the case, we are surrounded by sound, and cannot help but join in just by the pumping of our hearts. Everything is continually singing out it's nature, why not be creative with it?

[ben]

[cheya]

 

 

In reality, hardly can we think without using words and symbols ( includes mathematical symbols ) , a wordless spiritual process , of course, can't be viewed as any kind of reasoning or thinking . However, Taoism finds that it is this kind of process makes initialization of high quality of qi possible and easier. Any word is ,in fact, a casing mounted on our mind , restraining us from upgrading and expanding our qi ,and , the earlier and easier we get rid of it, the better and happier for our cultivation.

Hi Exorcist
Great post! Waysun Liao speaks to this extensively in his new book, Tao: the Way of God.
He says Chi, Te, Tao are about FEELING, not thinking, which is why words, all words, get in the way of merging with Tao. "The mind follows the body like the stream clings to the world." The mind's job is to witness, not comment!

Liao says the process of merging with Te and then Tao is in the realm of sensing and feeling, and can only be a wordless process.

Tao: the Way of God is truly radical. Liao's language and concepts are really simple, deceptively so I think, but offer much to mull over. Wordlessly of course.

Thanks for starting this thread.
 cheya

[Birch]

Synchronicity hits again ;-)

 

I watched that Eygptian series on Google yesterday and there was a nice part about exactly this.

 

Now, whether the person speaking a word is aware of its meaning or not is another question I ponder.

 

Do the words hold intention in and of themselves? I think they might, although I've also experienced the contrary where a "negatively-intentioned" message has been transmitted through perfectly "ok-looking" words.

 

But at that point, I need to also wonder if it's not just me who is reacting badly to the words (and/or the person who spoke them). Whereas a "vibe is a vibe" and you can't mistake a "good one" for a "bad one" (or a "pointy one" for that matter, but I digress...)

[exorcist_1699]

 

 

They discuss in the introduction the problem of trying to translate classical Chinese, describing it as almost an impossible task for the Chinese themselves let alone Western scholars. Classical Chinese is extinct correct?

 

In high / secondary schools of China, Hong Kong and Taiwan, students are requested to study lots of Classical Chinese , so we can't say it extinct. In fact, without some intensive reading in classical Chinese, students are incapable of writing any relatively high -level modern Chinese ( Baihua) essays. Of course, nowadays Chinese generally don't email each other in classical Chinese, however, it is still a form of writing acceptable, and , high respected.

 

In some area, say TCM and acupuncture , of course, classical Chinese's role is still dominant .

 

In Japan, many literature /arts students are still requested to study classical Chinese, not necessarily because they major in Chinese literature . You can find many classical Chinese tutorials, taught in Japanese, by searching in Japanese on Youtube . In fact , Most Menji- period Japanese literature icons are good at classical Chinese.

Edited January 4, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Otis]

A perfect example for why I say that there are certain words that have too many connotations for me to use without defining.

Too true. The classics on discussion groups: mind, consciousness, love, self, God, heart, reality, surrender, desire, enlightenment, etc.

[Otis]

However, when we come to the Taoised Zen, the significance of Chinese way of favoring simplicity once again appear, this time, pushing to its limit: Words is said to a barrier preventing people from understanding the Buddha Heart, any spoken word , or any change of our thought ,is said to be destracting us from the right way.

Another good reason for us to be slow to say "you're wrong" to each other. Often, it's only the words that disagree with each other, whereas our meanings overlap nicely.

[exorcist_1699]

Hi Exorcist

Great post! Waysun Liao speaks to this extensively in his new book, Tao: the Way of God.

He says Chi, Te, Tao are about FEELING, not thinking, which is why words, all words, get in the way of merging with Tao. "The mind follows the body like the stream clings to the world." The mind's job is to witness, not comment!

 

Liao says the process of merging with Te and then Tao is in the realm of sensing and feeling, and can only be a wordless process.

 

Tao: the Way of God is truly radical. Liao's language and concepts are really simple, deceptively so I think, but offer much to mull over. Wordlessly of course.

 

Thanks for starting this thread.

Adeha

 

Hi, Adeha,

 

I do not get any chance to read Liao's book , but I always find this kind of philosophical or artistic interpretation of Zen problematic. Besides, a persistent wordless spiritual process only provides us some initial condition to start , yet is still something unproductive ; hardly can it be claimed as any kind of significant achievement .

Edited January 5, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[ben]

[Vajrahridaya]

Originally classical Chinsese is a very "condensed" language which admires using least words to express as many as possible meanings of things around us .Taoist classical writing, Lao Tze , of course, is such an example especailly when being compared to Buddha 's huge amount of spoken words recorded in the sutra after his 40-year preaching .

 

However, when we come to the Taoised Zen, the significance of Chinese way of favoring simplicity once again appear, this time, pushing to its limit: Words is said to a barrier preventing people from understanding the Buddha Heart, any spoken word , or any change of our thought ,is said to be destracting us from the right way.

 

In reality, hardly can we think without using words and symbols ( includes mathematical symbols ) , a wordless spiritual process , of course, can't be viewed as any kind of reasoning or thinking . However, Taoism finds that it is this kind of process makes initialization of high quality of qi possible and easier. Any word is ,in fact, a casing mounted on our mind , restraining us from upgrading and expanding our qi ,and , the earlier and easier we get rid of it, the better and happier for our cultivation.

 

Realize the empty nature of everything and neither concepts, nor non-concepts will grant any sort of issue and blockage.

 

Cling to either/or and insight is not realized.

 

There is always the whole "holding up the flower" metaphor with the Buddha on Vulture Peak.

 

Still... people can always get caught up in various assumptions leading to extremes of either nihilism or eternalism if clarifying concepts were not engaged with the teaching.

 

It seems that most spiritual practitioners get caught up in eternalism, as in "something inherently exists from it's own side eternally" even if non-conceptually, is still a hindering internal interpretation of meditative experience which carefully placed concepts can extinguish.

[Otis]

Waysun Liao speaks to this extensively in his new book, Tao: the Way of God.

He says Chi, Te, Tao are about FEELING, not thinking, which is why words, all words, get in the way of merging with Tao. "The mind follows the body like the stream clings to the world." The mind's job is to witness, not comment!

 

Liao says the process of merging with Te and then Tao is in the realm of sensing and feeling, and can only be a wordless process.

I do not get any chance to read Liao's book , but I always find this kind of philosophical or artistic interpretation of Zen problematic. Besides, a persistent wordless spiritual process only provides us some initial condition to start , yet is still something unproductive ; hardly can it be claimed as any kind of significant achievement .

Problematic? Unproductive? Insignificant? Why do you say that?

Edited January 5, 2011 by Otis

[exorcist_1699]

 

By, “the Chinese favour simplicity’, are you implying that they are less prone to being indoctrinated? Zen has its roots in the Madhyamika school and Nagarjunas exhaustive explanation/writings on the logic of emptiness. It would seem that this overtly philosophical and Indian school of Buddhism was mellowed by Taoist influences. (Please, I’m aware of the flower sermon-cute story) To my mind the Chinese seem a very practical lot, this was after all a civilisation that discovered blood circulation as early as 200 BC. Indeed, the list of first discoveries in China is amazing, apparently they took quite an interest in the Self.

 

You mentioned the 'still dominant' role that classical Chinese has in TC Medicine. Could you therefore replace ‘simplicity’ with ‘precise’? As for ‘initialization of high quality chi’, what is an accurate translation of chi? . The knowledge of Chi saturated everything in classical China from bones to homes, could it mean function perhaps?

 

I think because Chinese are practical people , so they also like simplicity. Nothing more ideal than using least time , words and energy to fullfil most jobs if simplicity , without leading to misunderstanding, does works.

 

Chinese is also a visual type of language. Comparing with most other audio type languages using varied forms of alphabets , it emphasizes an ability of grasping the meanings of those symbols and their complicated re-arrangement at a glance. So, likely it nourishes an unique intuitive ability that the Chinese mind different from others'. Or, it was because such an unique ability that made the Chinese choose pictograph as their characters.

 

Chi is not only the most important concept in Chinese medicine, it is also a concept widely used in every aspects of the Chinese life: ethics , calligraphy, food, building ...however, qi is more than a western concept of atom reappears in this system because it always co-exists with another concept called shen . Chi and shen is the 2 facets of the same entity . It is such a reality that makes our mind's direct intervention of the world , not just things happen in our body ,without via material means, possible .Shen , by using qi, intervenes and shapes this world . For example, when doing acupuncture , you at least need a needle to proceed ; in qi gong therapy, you only use your mind , a mind that free of any literal, spiritual, energetic forms' limitations , to initialize qi, to cure .

 

The discovry of qi at the very earliest stage of the rise of Chinese culture determines that it could not be any culture suffered from a dualistic (mind and body ) split as what happens in the West.

Edited January 6, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[henro]

This is an ongoing discussion amongst my friends and some teachers (I'm currently studying TCM). My thoughts are that one can not truly understand Chinese medicine without an understanding of Chinese language and culture. Sure you can get it to work, the theory is sound, and most people can grasp the concepts without going too deep. I personally think there is something lost in the translation of the textbooks, and the misunderstanding of Chinese characters. Qi is a perfect example. It's such a deep concept with so many Western translations. You have to understand the context within which it is used to understand it's intended meaning at any given time.

 

As an example, look up the pinyin for bi(4):

 

http://www.chinaorb.com/index.php

 

You'll get over 80 translations depending on character and tone. How can we begin to translate that effectively ? In TCM we use it describe pain caused by obstruction. But it could mean paralysis, numbness, and more. . .

 

I would further suggest, and this may piss some people off, that to truly understand spiritual cultivation from the Chinese perspective (i.e. Chinese internal practices) you really need to dive into Chinese language and culture. That's not to say you can't have great success without doing that, but the doors really open up for you once you commit to that deeper understanding.

[ben]

[exorcist_1699]

exorcist,

RE: ...persistent wordless spiritual process...

 

 

As Otis asks, tell us more.

Hi, Rainbow and Otis,

 

I think a wordless spiritual process, even if we can persist in it , only brings us to the threshold of a much immense magic kingdom, and , as long as the gate not opened, we are still entangled in a persistent dullness despite some may claim that such a pool of dead water ( a status of feeling very peaceful, feeling oneself united with the universe ..etc) is enlightenment , and, get their satisfaction in some kind of self-deceiving vanity.

 

I have to say that , here, Taoism adopts a much realistic attitude towards proof of achievement , and it reflects the practical attitude of the Chinese towards life , which we pointed out above ; it not only asks for spiritual proof ( how wonderful, how magnificent you feel ,..etc.) but also ask for some physical proof, ie, since you get so highly a spiritual achievement, does it affect your physical body ? Does it re-structure the time character of your physical existence, ie, leading to a reverse of your aging process ? In fact, just read the face of Osho, Nang Huai Chin or Xue Yun (虛雲) ,those well-known Buddhist/Zen icons, you know who is the master , who is just some kind of scholar.

 

In fact, how people enter a wordless /concept-less spiritual status does count . Many people claim that they enter this status by the non-dual spiritual process , and explain : first, I do not think of good , then I don't think of evil either; Further, I neither think of good nor thinking of evil, then I try to forget that I am in a status of neither thinking of good nor thinking of evil....unfortunately such kind of hair-splitting our mind likely trap us in a dull , lifeless situation and is far from grasping the essence of the non-dual way .

 

A better non-dual way should be an already embedded "mindset " in you by which you can utilize to explore and grasp the core of emptiness in just one stroke...

Edited January 7, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Otis]

Hi, Rainbow and Otis,

I'm trying to follow your critique.

 

You seem to be most dissatisfied with a specific non-dualism meditation tradition (the "hair-splitting" you mention), rather than wordless understanding, per se. Am I right?

 

And then secondly, you seem interested in "proving" accomplishment. Well, of course that must happen in the world of the conceptual, because comparison and measurement are dualistic activities.

 

But simply living as a "wordless spiritual process"? You throw in phrases like "self-deceiving vanity" and "dead water", but don't explain why you associate them with such a life. You use the word "us" a lot to describe limitations, but I don't recognize those limitations as belonging to me. What experience do you have, that makes you think such a path is "problematic", "unproductive", or "insignificant"?

Edited January 7, 2011 by Otis