[TTC Study] Chapter 16 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[manitou]

I have to throw Yutang in here one more time. (I'm going to try to stop doing this in the future!) His spin on this is a dramatically different twist, particularly where he talks about Destiny and Enlightenment.

 

KNOWING THE ETERNAL LAW

 

Attain the utmost in Humility;

Hold firm to the basis of Quietude.

 

The myriad things take shape and rise to activity,

But I watch them fall back to their repose.

Like vegetation that luxuriantly grows

But returns to the root (soil) from which is springs.

 

To return to the root is Repose;

It is called going back to one's Destiny.

Going back to one's Destiny is to find the Eternal Law.

To know the Eternal Law is Enlightenment.

And not to know the Eternal Law

Is to court disaster.

 

He who knows the Eternal Law is tolerant;

Being tolerant, he is impartial;

Being impartial, he is kingly;

Being kingly, he is in accord with Nature;

Being in accord with Nature, he is in accord with Tao;

Being in accord with Tao, he is eternal,

And his whole life is preserved from harm.

 

 

Then he also has a footnote on the phrase 'Eternal Law' in the 3rd paragraph. This footnote reads 'The "constant," the law of growth and decay, of necessary alternation of opposites, can be interpreted as the "universal law of nature," or the "inner law of man,", the true self, the two being identical in their nature.

 

I love the idea of the necessary alternation of opposites; how often it seems true that things are exactly opposite of how they appear on the surface?

 

This place we all try and describe, this Quietude, this Repose - is the place of impartiality, of tolerance, of non-judgment. When we inhabit this place it is as though we are the witness to the events before us; we are the cameraman, merely recording and watching. Our hearts are not yanked one way or the other. It just all is. It is from this place that agape love or compassion arises as well. Everyone is loved equally. Every thing is loved equally. Not with a burning love like you would feel for a lover, but a warm glow that extends to everything within our individual universe. The place where the synchronicity aligns often because we are so very attuned to the interplay of the elements of nature and man.

[Marblehead]

Hi Manitou,

 

Well, first off, I see no reason for you to stop presenting Yutang's translations. Doing so just might help someone grasp a concept that had previously evaded them.

 

And secondly, I think that adding his translations add to the possibility for discussion of the concepts within the chapters. All is good.

 

Yes, his "universal law of nature" is what I refer to as the 'processes of nature'. It didn't feel 'right' to me to use the word 'law' as if it were some dogma that is written down somewhere.

 

And I agree, the cycles in the universe, and in man, are eternal as far as I can envision. This is equally so with the alterations of Yin and Yang.

 

And BTW, I do like Yutangs translations because of the down-to-earth language he uses in translating.

[Easy]

[Marblehead]

Hi Easy,

 

I liked your Grand Canyon analogy. Thoughts ... life is that way, you know. No single moment of our life will ever be seen twice, exactly.

 

I kind of agree with you regarding what you said about "act in concert" and "rise and arise". But then, if we do use the word 'rise' or 'arise' we are speaking to the entire cycle but if we use the phrase 'act in concert' we are speaking to only the process and not the beginning and the end.

 

So, thinking about it, I'll stick with 'arise' and watch their return. Hehehe.

[Easy]

But then, if we do use the word 'rise' or 'arise' we are speaking to the entire cycle but if we use the phrase 'act in concert' we are speaking to only the process and not the beginning and the end.

 

So, thinking about it, I'll stick with 'arise' and watch their return. Hehehe.

 

Hey,

 

I can understand that. But if you look closely enough you will see there is no beginning and no end and no frontier between what is the fantasy of rising and the fantasy of falling. Hohoho.

[Marblehead]

Hey,

 

I can understand that. But if you look closely enough you will see there is no beginning and no end and no frontier between what is the fantasy of rising and the fantasy of falling. Hohoho.

 

Belly laughs. Hehehe.

 

You leave me with nothing to say, only laugh.

 

(That was good belly exercise!)

[Mr. T]

hey all, happy friday!!

 

i figured since i have been banging on about derek lin, i'll continue and post his translation of 16....

 

Attain the ultimate emptiness

Hold on to the truest tranquility

The myriad things are all active

I therefore watch their return

 

Everything flourishes; each returns to its root

Returning to the root is called tranquility

Tranquility is called returning to one's nature

Returning to one's nature is called constancy

Knowing constancy is called clarity

 

Not knowing constancy, one recklessly causes trouble

Knowing constancy is acceptance

Acceptance is impartiality

Impartiality is sovereign

Sovereign is Heaven

Heaven is Tao

Tao is eternal

The self is no more, without danger

 

a lot of similarities between many of the translations. i have heard other people say the same thing as you, easy...that 16 is sort of a litmus test for translations. not sure what to look for, other than the things possibly that have been pointed out.

 

i have to admit that i find the literary device commonly used in the ttc, and used twice in this chapter, is difficult for me to follow usually. i'm not sure why, i think it is just the word progression or something. the last two section of this chapter are the examples i am referring to...

 

this is that,

is this is that

is this is that....sort of thing. am i alone here?

[Marblehead]

Hi Mr. T,

 

I have never been comfortable with the last two lines of this chapter regardless of who does the translation.

 

There seems to be connotations of invincibility and immortality that speak opposite to what I see in nature.

 

And even in Derek's translation we see the wrods "The self is no more ..." and this is counter to the concept that all things manifest are a real part of Tao.

[Mr. T]

hey marble...

 

i agree somewhat. the last line escpecially, "the self is no more, without danger", does seem a little forced when taken in context of the rest of the chapter...it just doesn't seem to fit. whatever, my name isn't lao tzu, so who am i to say what does and doesn't fit in his book!!

 

i do remember hearing derek's lecture about his translation of this chapter, and from what i can remember this chapter is all about lessening the ego (self). by reducing the ego, one lessens their interference in interactions, and thus the complexity of their life. these are his words and ideas, not mine...just to give due credit. now this was some time ago, so i could be totally ate up.

 

when i read this chapter focusing on reducing unnecessary intrusions into life, it's like i can see how someone could merge with the tao and be forever..."the tao is forever, the self is no more, without danger." so it's like the self has been replaced by the tao, and one is free from suffering...like this chapter is a roadmap of sorts...

Edited January 8, 2011 by Mr. T

[Marblehead]

i do remember hearing derek's lecture about his translation of this chapter, and from what i can remember this chapter is all about lessening the ego (self). by reducing the ego, one lessens their interference in interactions, and thus the complexity of their life. these are his words and ideas, not mine...just to give due credit. now this was some time ago, so i could be totally ate up.

 

Yeah, I agree that we should lessen our ego. But not negate it. We need our ego for the survival process. And Chuang Tzu many times says that we should conduct ourselves in such a way to live our life to its fullest potential. We can't do that if we kill our ego and exist no more on an individual basis.

 

And then, I am merely expressing my understanding. I look to nature and see all animals and plants operating according to the survival principle. I think we are still animals, right?

[Mr. T]

agreed, we are still animals!

 

yeah, that whole ego thing can get cumbersome. i think you are right that some semblance of an ego is necessary in life, and i agree that understanding it and it's role in ones life is extremely important...it seems reducing it can also be beneficial!

 

the other thing that i know mr. lin says often when talking about his translation is that when the word "sovereign" is used, it can be also thought of as the individual..."me". that appears many times throughout the ttc, and also here in 16. that tends to make that section/line appear differently when one places themselves in the context of the text... i thought i'd add that since i have been thinking about it now that i have been participating in this conversation.

 

i still don't fully understand this chapter...it is difficult for me to follow...

[Marblehead]

the other thing that i know mr. lin says often when talking about his translation is that when the word "sovereign" is used, it can be also thought of as the individual..."me". that appears many times throughout the ttc, and also here in 16. that tends to make that section/line appear differently when one places themselves in the context of the text... i thought i'd add that since i have been thinking about it now that i have been participating in this conversation.

 

I would agree with that. Taoism does not teach the negation of the Self.

 

i still don't fully understand this chapter...it is difficult for me to follow...

 

For me this chapter is pointing toward the thought that we should try to attain a living condition of wu wei. That is, to be as impartial as possible as Tao is.

[Easy]

When I read Derek Lin's translation/interpretation I can see how he arrives at a contemplative based self-refinement take on the chapter. It sheds some light on the two contrasting perspective I wrote of in my first comment. On the other hand, a reading of Cleary's translation prompts me to see it through the lens colored by Taoism's foundation in a shamanic, nature-based ontology.

 

The line "Returning to the root is called stillness; stillness is called return to Life..." is particularly to the point when the "root" is seen as rhizomatic or a type of clonal colony in which the source of the life lies, for example, in a single organism that is 80,000 years old. Carl Jung wrote that instead of being a deterioration the movement from middle age into old age is a "return to the rhizome." Likewise, I think you can see that the theorizing of Gilles Deleuse and Felix Guattari regarding the rhizome as a philosophical and sociological metaphor contains distinct parallels with aspects of Taoist philosophy.

 

I am certainly no scholar of the ttc, but I think it is clear that the book did not rise sui generis from the poet's mind but is a compilation of wisdom from a variety of authors who had differing vocabularies for similar concepts. The "this is that is this is that..." device is found in other texts of the time as well. I have two guesses as to its use: 1) The authors who use the device are trying to achieve a teaching glossary that unites a variety of metaphors and alchemical codes into a single image. 2) A reverse process where the author laid out a sequential list of single-term concepts from other sources like a paper chase. I think this guess applies more to chapter 16, keeping in mind that the ttc was not written for the layman (because laymen in those days could not read) but for adepts who were expected to be fairly well versed with the topic and should be able to recognize that "that" was from such-and-such a source and this "this" was from another. It is not a whole lot different than how academicians write today.

 

Now down to the last two lines. Anyone who has tried to eliminate an aspen knows that it can be a pretty futile task...it keeps coming back up even when the trunk is dead. The fact that the source of life is in the root (rhizome) and it continues even past the appearance of physical death might have made the root a great metaphor for The Process.

[Marblehead]

Hi Easy,

 

Yes, I think that 'returning to the root' and 'keeping one's self rooted' are very valid Taoist concepts.

 

Our return is to go back to whence we came. And yes, this can happen before physical death so in a sence we are already home.

[Mr. T]

howdy!

 

oh no...the ww word. why'd you have to bring that up, marble??!! just kidding. that concept seems to be lurking in all the dark corners, eh?

 

to comment on what you said easy, appreciating the natural side of life is one aspects of taoism that i love very much. when you say "act in concert", it recalls to mind the time-lapse videos of the forest floor, or a flower. all the small plants stretch and wriggle back and forth in-unison...in concert. then winter hits, they shrink back again only to spring back the next year. perfect!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-mfYgsIAxI

 

i love at about 1:05 when the seeds split open...hahaha, cover your kids eyes, it's a little gross...

[Marblehead]

howdy!

 

oh no...the ww word. why'd you have to bring that up, marble??!! just kidding. that concept seems to be lurking in all the dark corners, eh?

 

 

Yep. A condition well worth attaining, I think.

 

 

Nice video. Thanks for sharing.

[Paulw]

I have really enjoying reading these chapter studies, especially the different translations, they do make me smile as I only recall each chapter as I read it, then it is gone from my mind but leaving the sentiment of the chapter remaining, on the whole each translation leaves the same sentiment with little difference.

 

Please don't stop posting

[Marblehead]

I have really enjoying reading these chapter studies, especially the different translations, they do make me smile as I only recall each chapter as I read it, then it is gone from my mind but leaving the sentiment of the chapter remaining, on the whole each translation leaves the same sentiment with little difference.

 

Please don't stop posting

 

Thanks for the input Paulw.

 

Yeah, we will keep this series going. (In fact, it is time for me to do the next chapter.)

[dawei]

here is my translation:

Devote yourself to the utmost emptiness
Abide in sincere calmness
As all things arise side by side
observe their returning
Heaven's way is circular
Everything returns to their root
Returning to the root brings this calmness
This is called returning to one's destiny
Returning to one's destiny is the constancy [of life]
To know constancy is to bring clarity
To not knowing constancy is to bring adversity
If you know constancy you will be all-embracing
To be all-embracing is to be impartial
To be impartial is to be as a king
To be a king is to be with heaven
To be with heaven is to be with the Way
To be with the Way is to be everlasting
As long as you live [this way], there will be no peril too great

The first line opens with: 致 = attain, devote, cause to come, bring about
The last line ends with: 殆 = precarious, dangerous, perilous, tired, afraid

I think the last line is meant to convey that given all the above, life is not defined as pain and peril. Things arise and return as part of their daily existence. There is a 'straw dog' aspect going on in this all-embracing calmness and clarity. When you attain the further reaches (極 - Ji, think as in Wu Ji) of emptiness, you reach that state where you observe the arising and returning; the constancy of Dao (and therefore of life). You see all things as arising; even pain or peril. But they return like everything else.

Hilmer Alquiros has an interesting translation of the last line as: "the loss of the body is no danger" , as in no concern.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I like your translation.

 

But this?:

 

Hilmer Alquiros has an interesting translation of the last line as: "the loss of the body is no danger" , as in no concern.

 

No, I can't buy that. That could lead to self-destructive thoughts and actions. The body is important.

[dawei]

Yeah, I like your translation.

 

But this?:

 

Hilmer Alquiros has an interesting translation of the last line as: "the loss of the body is no danger" , as in no concern.

 

No, I can't buy that. That could lead to self-destructive thoughts and actions. The body is important.

I take it to mean that once someone gets to that point, there is no fear of death. It's just another part of the life cycle and fully accepted.

[Marblehead]

I take it to mean that once someone gets to that point, there is no fear of death. It's just another part of the life cycle and fully accepted.

 

Okay. What you said I agree with. But just because we have acquired fearlessness of death doesn't mean we shouldn't try to live to our fullest potential.

[dawei]

Okay. What you said I agree with. But just because we have acquired fearlessness of death doesn't mean we shouldn't try to live to our fullest potential.

Not sure where that point is coming from. If someone actually got through to all of those steps, I am not sure what greater potential there is; it seems one is completely self-actualized into the whole and lives accordingly. Maybe your talking something I am not thinking about.

[Marblehead]

Not sure where that point is coming from. If someone actually got through to all of those steps, I am not sure what greater potential there is; it seems one is completely self-actualized into the whole and lives accordingly. Maybe your talking something I am not thinking about.

 

I am speaking primarily of older folks who have retired, think that they have done all they can do, sit back in their easy chair and die.

 

But I am also talking to those who believe that the body is not of ultimate importance. If we don't take care of our body it really doesn't matter about our mentality or our spirituality because an uncared-for body will die young.

 

But you are right in that if a person has fully self-actualized this would not even be a thought to be considered because they would be doing what was best for themself.