[TTC Study] Chapter 16 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Harmonious Emptiness]

There is something that can never be explained to anyone's satisfaction. That thing is Direct Knowledge

 

This is also very much the idea of the latter half of Chapter 16 I would say.

 

Your post here also reminded me of a conversation I was having with a friend last night, about God and Taoism, trying to figure out what word might have been translated as "God" in a Taoist text. Then she said "so they don't believe in God?" so I explained. "The difference, I think, is that Judeo-Christians ascribe a personality to God, whereas Taoists see things operating the same way as if God was in charge, but they don't ascribe a personality, they just call it The Way. This could make sense too from a Christian perspective, because God is beyond personality.

 

"The personality is like the mother's pant-leg that a child holds on to; the personality is the pant-leg that the intellect holds onto since it can't hold onto to anything else. So Taoists seek to see beyond this pant-leg of personality and clear the mind to be able to conceive of that which is beyond the comprehension one's intellect. A Sage, Buddha, or enlightened person is also beyond personality, as they are a reflection of The Way, much like Jesus was the reflection of God."

 

Sorry if that was trite, just thinking someone might enjoy the read.

[sree]

sree...

Nature has no way to tell what is right or wrong. It just happens that way, the way of Nature.

 

Chapter Five:

Earth and Heaven has no mercy.

It treats all things like straw dogs.

 

A sage has no mercy.

It treats all people as straw dogs.

 

From these first four lines, they tell us to be impartial. Leave it alone; let it be the way it should be. BTW That was what the photographer did. Instead of saving the calf, the video was taken as is.

 

Ok, Mr Chi. Let's pursue this question in Chapter 5. You are suggesting a dichotomy between the morality of the Tao Te Ching and the morality of humankind. This means that if we follow the Way, we become inhuman. We may have to make a choice. As Jesus said to the rich man who wanted to find eternal life, "you serve either God or money, you cannot serve both".

[flowing hands]

God forbid. Why do you say I am mocking? I am here to listen to what you have to say. Even if I am incredulous of your shamanic claims, I am keeping an open mind to learn more. You did not give answers to some of my questions as follows:

 

1. How does he (Li Erh aka Lao Tze) teach you? Does he materialize in a séance or is he just a voice in your head?

2. Why is life (or nature) set up this way? Why do animals have to kill and devour one another in the wild? In the same way, like other animals, we humans also "devour" one another in as brutal a fashion in order to survive. We kill each other in wars over territories and resources. We trample on one another to get food, clothing and shelter. Such brutality is caused by the way nature or life is set up. You know the Gods and the spiritual realm. So why don't you tell me?

 

 

 

What is the benefit of your experiences of immortal teachers? You said that the trouble is the way society has been based that cause us to be trapped by a lack of wealth without which we have no freedom to practise and cultivate in order to make this world a better place. Why is society based this way? Why do you say you are still trapped despite your spiritual accomplishment from immortal teachers?

 

I am asking sincere questions and not being disrespectful the way the Pharisees were disrespectful of Jesus when they taunted him. Please understand that being ignorant, I can only ask questions like a blind person groping in the dark.

 

Answer to first question; Li Erh or any Immortal master comes physically first and then they will communicate with you mentally quite clearly. They move you powerfully, you cannot resist them, you know they have come. They can overtake your body completely so that you are in a trance and so speak and walk like the Immortal master. If there is an emergency they can take over your body completely without warning and I would be sent into a deep sleep while they use your body to help. When they have finished possesing your body, you wake up, usually lying on the floor as they do not want to hurt you as their energy comes out of your body.

 

Seond question; Evolution, we can't avoid it, but we can as humans choose to persue a path of non judgement and wisdom and hold life as a great miracle beyond the natural way of killing. Animals do not kill unnescessarily. Humans do not kill unesecessarily, there is always a reason, though sometimes that reason really can't be fathomed. Who amongst us can judge what is right and what is wrong, the Dao does not, it simply gives life, only humans moralise. The Immortals are like the Dao.

 

Third answer: As a Holyman I must experience what life throws at all peoples, therefore I have a greater understanding and hopefully am able to help others. Society has been based this way because we have wanted more than just a simple life. Years ago people were trapped by the need for the harvest and toil of the fields. Now we are trapped by money to feed ourselves. The correlation has gone all wrong. We have school children who do not know where milk comes from, or that vegetables are grown, they think that food comes from the local store. There is a the great disconection between nature and humans, there lies a path of deep disrespect for the way of nature and a persuit of money to buy as many goods as possible without any connection. How do we reverse this process? We learn to give up and go back to simple living and remember the ancient ways. But it is difficult if you have to sell your labour to recieve money to pay the bills before you can live. Even if you go back to a simple life, some local government or the tax system will want money from you. We are trapped.

 

Manitou, who is saying about the connection from within, I am talking about inviting 'spirit' entities from the outside to come. There is a great deal of difference. All people can have the connection within but not many have the connection from the 'spirit' entities that live in the Heavenly void. To get them to come to you is a great feat and not accomplished very easily. In the Temples people go there to beg to be taught by the Immortal masters and they may go there every week for a year and not be succesful, it is a very difficult way to learn. I once met a shaman who said I have learnt martial art from the Immortal master, but he tested my patience and my faith and to tell you the truth it would have been far easier to have gone to a human sifu to learn! He had a smile on his face at the time, for he knew that he was being taught more than martial art!!

 

The path of a Holyman is not a straight forward one, I am here giving you free the wisdom that has been passed down to me for more than thirty yerars by the Immortal master, I am putting myself and the value of that under scrutany. I have a reason for doing that.

[sree]

You have given honest answers. And they prompt more questions that I want to ask.

 

Answer to first question; Li Erh or any Immortal master comes physically first and then they will communicate with you mentally quite clearly.

 

Ok, the spirit of Lao Tze possesses and takes over your body. Why did you select this route to deal with life? Much as I disdain western science, it is a much more powerful belief system that has possessed not just mere individuals but the entirety of mankind. Spiritual cults and sects do not enjoy mainstream acceptance and are dismissed along with the major organized religions as supersititions based on fear and ignorance.

 

Seond question; Evolution, we can't avoid it, but we can as humans choose to persue a path of non judgement and wisdom and hold life as a great miracle beyond the natural way of killing. Animals do not kill unnescessarily. Humans do not kill unesecessarily, there is always a reason, though sometimes that reason really can't be fathomed. Who amongst us can judge what is right and what is wrong, the Dao does not, it simply gives life, only humans moralise. The Immortals are like the Dao.

 

If amoralilty is the Way of the Tao Te Ching, then the state of society is neither right nor wrong. One then picks his way through life like an animal in the jungle. One's hunger determines what one must do to satisfy that hunger.

 

Third answer: As a Holyman I must experience what life throws at all peoples, therefore I have a greater understanding and hopefully am able to help others.

 

Fair enough. Just because you have access to Immortals doesn't give you a free ride. Jesus was also cast into the world as a common man. But why help anybody? Doesn't this run counter to the teaching of amorality? It's a dog eat dog world.

 

Society has been based this way because we have wanted more than just a simple life. Years ago people were trapped by the need for the harvest and toil of the fields. Now we are trapped by money to feed ourselves. The correlation has gone all wrong. We have school children who do not know where milk comes from, or that vegetables are grown, they think that food comes from the local store. There is a the great disconection between nature and humans, there lies a path of deep disrespect for the way of nature and a persuit of money to buy as many goods as possible without any connection. How do we reverse this process? We learn to give up and go back to simple living and remember the ancient ways. But it is difficult if you have to sell your labour to recieve money to pay the bills before you can live. Even if you go back to a simple life, some local government or the tax system will want money from you. We are trapped.

 

If we subscribe to the principle of non-judgment, then we cannot moralize anything and just accept society as it is. If we are trapped, then we either struggle to get out of that trap or succumb and accept our fate without sqawking. The loss of connection with nature is a moral judgment. Who is to say that man is not to exploit nature as he deems fit? Who is to say that man must not subjugate his fellow man? Society is created in our own image which is not different from that of Mother Nature. She has no pity for the weak which she culls without mercy. Likewise, if Mother Nature is weaker than us, we wil suck the life out of her with our technological power and leave her wasted.

 

The path of a Holyman is not a straight forward one, I am here giving you free the wisdom that has been passed down to me for more than thirty yerars by the Immortal master, I am putting myself and the value of that under scrutany. I have a reason for doing that.

 

What is that reason?

Edited December 17, 2012 by sree

[Protector]

Man, reading these chapter discussions is like having a huge ego boost

It's kinda cool to understand something no one else does, I wish I found this one earlier so I could read Marblehead not know what's going on on these first few pages hehe

 

It would take forever to explain the chapter in detail, but good thing that I've been writing this sort of thing down!

So let's use this for reference http://thetaobums.co...-time-to-learn/

 

I like this Feng translation:

Chapter 16

 

English/Feng

 

Empty yourself of everything.

Let the mind become still.

The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return.

They grow and flourish and then return to the source.

Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.

The way of nature is unchanging.

Knowing constancy is insight.

Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.

Knowing constancy, the mind is open.

With an open mind, you will be openhearted.

Being openhearted, you will act royally.

Being royal, you will attain the divine.

Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao.

Being at one with the Tao is eternal.

And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away.

 

 

Empty yourself of everything.

Let the mind become still.

The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return.

They grow and flourish and then return to the source.

Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.

 

We know how duality works and how something comes out of nothing.

Things grow and become more complex, like chakras flowing into each other

It's seen in many patterns and in life, when something grows up, it eventually dies and returns to the source

It came from nothing and eventually becomes nothing

 

The way of nature is unchanging.

Knowing constancy is insight.

Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.

Knowing constancy, the mind is open.

With an open mind, you will be openhearted.

Being openhearted, you will act royally.

Being royal, you will attain the divine.

Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao.

 

Take into perspective into your own body, you are made of many cells that work individually but together they are one. One cell is not important to your big body. Cells have a short life and they are replaced with new ones without you noticing. Many cells together create tissue, that tissue can become a piece of your heart. Your heart pumps blood through your whole body but it's hidden in your chest behind your ribs lungs and flesh, it doesn't know about the skin. The skin touches the air and air touches everything. You might feel disconnected because air is not a part of your body until it get's into your lungs. Food is not a part of your body until you eat it. The universe is not a part of your body, but you are part of its body and are like a cell to it.

As a human, you stand in the middle of your own being. At your smallest, you are looking out of your body as a cell or something smaller that initiated all the movement for your body. At your greatest, you are the universe and a long time ago you initiated the movement of all the things that made the creation of your human body possible. You support your human body and it supports itself which supports that one cell.

There is a lot of change but it can be narrowed down to coming to the source and coming out of it and they change like yin and yang or life and death. It's the most basic exchange and since it's so basic, it's nature. In the big picture you are not your body and if you are your body, it's not the same as it was yesterday or seconds ago. Small things change but you don't notice, and big things change but you don't notice them either, in the same way you don't notice cell death you don't notice a star's explosion in space. These things change but who you are during them doesn't. You already died in many ways and will die in the future but you will still move on.

 

Being at one with the Tao is eternal.

And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Sinfest 2: Judgement Day

[sree]

Using western science to Interpret the Tao Te Ching is like putting a pair of tights on an elephant after a full meal.

[Protector]

Using western science to Interpret the Tao Te Ching is like putting a pair of tights on an elephant after a full meal.

Now where's the bastard doing that, let me at him

[manitou]

If amoralilty is the Way of the Tao Te Ching, then the state of society is neither right nor wrong. One then picks his way through life like an animal in the jungle. One's hunger determines what one must do to satisfy that hunger.

 

 

 

 

 

\Yes, that is true until love enters the heart. The dichotomy is that when one elevates on the path, the judgment and morality is replaced by pure love for everything and everybody (this is not only the reward but also the challenge). One emerges with a "heart of stone", but not in the negative sense that it first sounds like. We become Impersonal, we reflect the entity that lives within us. When love resides in the heart, there is no need to worry about the jungle or the tiger. The decisions are made without you even thinking about it. This is where wu-wei comes in; we let life come to us. The decisions are made by the Tao, the Way. The answer is always love; as in 'what's the most loving or kindest action to take in this situation?'. We also find that we're capable of loving not only the 20 little kids but also the shooter.

 

To progress to the point of impartiality the inner work is necessary. We remove the characteristics that leave us feeling like victims, or the characteristics that tend to judge another's actions or being. It is those characteristics from which opinions and mindsets are obtained; those opinions and mindsets are the very things that impede our progress on the Way.

 

Can't explain why. It's just how it's set up. Like it says in the TTC, "Between 'aah' and 'ugh', how much difference is really between them?"

Edited December 18, 2012 by manitou

[Stosh]

This thread should probably get directed back to its OP

Edited December 18, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Yes, that is true until love enters the heart.

I don't normally use that four letter word but that was a good usage Manitou.

[flowing hands]

Love is the essence of true spiritual enlightenment. One may be empty, one may make no judgements but one does love all things.

[manitou]

I don't normally use that four letter word but that was a good usage Manitou.

 

Hi Marbles - I've noticed the love/compassion words sneaking into your missives of late.

[Marblehead]

Hi Marbles - I've noticed the love/compassion words sneaking into your missives of late.

Hehehe. No, you have just started noticing. They have always been there, just hiding most of the time.

[Stosh]

\Yes, that is true until love enters the heart. The dichotomy is that when one elevates on the path, the judgment and morality is replaced by pure love for everything and everybody (this is not only the reward but also the challenge). One emerges with a "heart of stone", but not in the negative sense that it first sounds like. We become Impersonal, we reflect the entity that lives within us. When love resides in the heart, there is no need to worry about the jungle or the tiger. The decisions are made without you even thinking about it. This is where wu-wei comes in; we let life come to us. The decisions are made by the Tao, the Way. The answer is always love; as in 'what's the most loving or kindest action to take in this situation?'. We also find that we're capable of loving not only the 20 little kids but also the shooter.

 

To progress to the point of impartiality the inner work is necessary. We remove the characteristics that leave us feeling like victims, or the characteristics that tend to judge another's actions or being. It is those characteristics from which opinions and mindsets are obtained; those opinions and mindsets are the very things that impede our progress on the Way.

 

Can't explain why. It's just how it's set up. Like it says in the TTC, "Between 'aah' and 'ugh', how much difference is really between them?"

 

I credit that attempt a lot manitou . to explain a really really difficult thing.

(I believe I get that point well but Im just tired , my attitude is at a low point and I need a break

... so its nice seeing someone else tackling it )

 

[sree]

We also find that we're capable of loving not only the 20 little kids but also the shooter..

 

If you are right, then there is no problem; not at Sandy Hook Elementary nor at Auschwitz concentration camp.

Are you telling me that the reason why the Jews who keep harping on the Holocaust is because they are incapable of loving Hitler? If you are right, then there is something wrong with the Jews.

 

I think we need to be careful about over-simplifying unanswerable questions. It is not that easy to crack the teachings in the Tao Te Ching.

Edited December 19, 2012 by sree

[flowing hands]

You have given honest answers. And they prompt more questions that I want to ask.

 

 

 

Ok, the spirit of Lao Tze possesses and takes over your body. Why did you select this route to deal with life? Much as I disdain western science, it is a much more powerful belief system that has possessed not just mere individuals but the entirety of mankind. Spiritual cults and sects do not enjoy mainstream acceptance and are dismissed along with the major organized religions as supersititions based on fear and ignorance.

 

 

 

If amoralilty is the Way of the Tao Te Ching, then the state of society is neither right nor wrong. One then picks his way through life like an animal in the jungle. One's hunger determines what one must do to satisfy that hunger.

 

 

 

Fair enough. Just because you have access to Immortals doesn't give you a free ride. Jesus was also cast into the world as a common man. But why help anybody? Doesn't this run counter to the teaching of amorality? It's a dog eat dog world.

 

 

 

If we subscribe to the principle of non-judgment, then we cannot moralize anything and just accept society as it is. If we are trapped, then we either struggle to get out of that trap or succumb and accept our fate without sqawking. The loss of connection with nature is a moral judgment. Who is to say that man is not to exploit nature as he deems fit? Who is to say that man must not subjugate his fellow man? Society is created in our own image which is not different from that of Mother Nature. She has no pity for the weak which she culls without mercy. Likewise, if Mother Nature is weaker than us, we wil suck the life out of her with our technological power and leave her wasted.

 

 

 

What is that reason?

 

 

Answer to first question: Shamanism was the first belief system until organised religion could see the possiblities of control and favour of people, so the great deception began, so the Dao was lost.

 

Answer to the last question linked to the first: I am here to bring the way back and to let each one of us know what is to come in the future. The choice is then up to those who have the power.

 

The Dao has no morals and does not distinguish between good and bad, only mankind does this. We all pertain and know of a 'higher' spiritual path which we have been taught by organised religion. Distinguishing between that which comes from mankind and that which is from the creator of all things one should never forget. The basis of a higher thought is that all life is sacred for it is a magical thing and comes from the Dao. So in persuing a spiritual path, we do not forget about natural wisdom, but because we have a greater understanding of the great magic and beauty of life, we therefore treasure it, rather than treating it as nothing. Humans have risen in some ways above the natural order of things and do treasure life. Treasuring life is also part of the Dao, for in that way off-spring can be protected from being preyed upon by natural prey and accidents, to live and reproduce the species.

 

Humans do know that if they exploit the earths resources until they are gone, we will then leave a legacy of poison behind and it will be their own demise. Natural wisdom would teach us to take and give back allowing the resource to regenerate for the generations of all life to come. Trouble is that people do not see natural wisdom, they want to obtain a great deal of money now and to the hell with the consequences.

 

[flowing hands]

For some reason my last post has become part of the qoute!!!

[manitou]

If you are right, then there is no problem; not at Sandy Hook Elementary nor at Auschwitz concentration camp.

Are you telling me that the reason why the Jews who keep harping on the Holocaust is because they are incapable of loving Hitler? If you are right, then there is something wrong with the Jews.

 

I think we need to be careful about over-simplifying unanswerable questions. It is not that easy to crack the teachings in the Tao Te Ching.

 

but yet you keep asking.

 

Yes, the liberation of a group of people would be to love and forgive their captor, at a certain level. To continually harp on injustices done is merely to keep them stuck in that victimized mindset. No liberation there.

[Marblehead]

To continually harp on injustices done is merely to keep them stuck in that victimized mindset. No liberation there.

Okay, this is a valid point. However, the injustices must be stopped one way or another and then let go of the past as it is written in stone. (But then, it is said that we need to remember the past so that we don't keep making the same mistakes (or allowing the same injustices) over and over again.)

[Stosh]

Forgetting allows folks to move on as a general rule,

Remembering tends to stick folks to a mindset they already had.

I dont know that there is a final cure for human failings.

But not even one lifetime after WWII the emnity we had for germany and japan

is largely forgotten ( as is the gratitude of France by the younger generation)

[sree]

but yet you keep asking.

 

Yes, the liberation of a group of people would be to love and forgive their captor, at a certain level.

 

At a certain level?

 

To continually harp on injustices done is merely to keep them stuck in that victimized mindset. No liberation there.

 

True. This is the code of the warrior. Strike first. Win every battle before it is ever fought, said Sun Tzu.

 

I commend you for your positive attitude.

[sree]

For some reason my last post has become part of the qoute!!!

 

The impartial software code is ruthless,

It sees both immortals and mortals as straw dogs.

 

Seems like you can make a slip just like other mortals.

 

Treasuring life is also part of the Dao, for in that way off-spring can be protected from being preyed upon by natural prey and accidents, to live and reproduce the species.

 

That doesn't protect us from preying on one another. Apart from the constant killing, we have enough nuclear weapons fused and ready to drop the Dao on its butt and blow it to smithereens.

 

Humans do know that if they exploit the earths resources until they are gone, we will then leave a legacy of poison behind and it will be their own demise. Natural wisdom would teach us to take and give back allowing the resource to regenerate for the generations of all life to come. Trouble is that people do not see natural wisdom, they want to obtain a great deal of money now and to the hell with the consequences

 

Seems that way, and mankind is not going to change anytime soon. This is why we all are trying to escape this screwed up realm. It is a sinking ship and we are trying to jump off like rats onto transcendental liferafts wherever we find them.

[dawei]

This is unbelievable. I am not saying that you are lying. Is there anyone in this forum who accepts your claim? I want to keep an open mind. I need a second opinion, just one person here who buys your story before I question my own sanity. (Ok, Manitou has come forward to back you up at the time of writing this post.)

I accept the claims but not simply because he says so but because it is consistent with study I have done under two different Qigong Masters. I find very little difference in the core message, which has much less to do with intellectualizing and rationalizing an understanding of life or requiring answers to how life appears unjust and how do we make sense of that.

 

If our perspective is simply on the physical level then there will be something missing from the picture in terms of an understanding and an answer. In which case how can one accept an answer for which their constructed view does not include that missing part? One may say over and over they are keeping an open mind, if even to realize or accept something missing, but it is not just a mental block issue; it is an issue deep within which is our connection to that which is unseen and beyond the senses. Just how does one listen and accept such things? (rhetorical).

 

So we can make such observations as the world is dog eat dog, etc and ask why is it this way... but what have you really solved after all is said and done? (semi-rhetorical). Maybe one comes to a point of simply accepting it or not. But simply accepting it, IMO, is to still sit outside of it as if we're going along with it all but we're separated; are we simply accepting ourselves too in this? (more rhetorical). What is the final goal? Self-discovery of some sort? (my final rhetorical).

 

From FH:

I am talking about inviting 'spirit' entities from the outside to come. There is a great deal of difference. All people can have the connection within but not many have the connection from the 'spirit' entities that live in the Heavenly void. To get them to come to you is a great feat and not accomplished very easily. In the Temples people go there to beg to be taught by the Immortal masters and they may go there every week for a year and not be succesful, it is a very difficult way to learn.

 

Yes, this does seem to be another level all together and is the level which I think most will simply find not just hard to accomplish but hard to be convinced it is even a need or a reality. I do think each person's path is their own and the road will go where it will. Some may end up at the same location at times and some paths are shorter and others are longer. But this is not to compare but only to say the path is their own.

 

Sometimes I think the path of self-discovery is no discovery at all... which of course may be a discovery in our minds alone. I once had an experience as this chapter 16 shares where I was lost in a kind of empty, gaze and lost all sense of distinctions and literally observed all things coming and going. And what we often describe as man's destructive actions against nature (or earth) was simply a part of the 10,000 arising and falling. I then came back to the micro view of life.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

edit... whoops, wrong chapter.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[manitou]

 

That doesn't protect us from preying on one another. Apart from the constant killing, we have enough nuclear weapons fused and ready to drop the Dao on its butt and blow it to smithereens.

 

 

 

Seems that way, and mankind is not going to change anytime soon. This is why we all are trying to escape this screwed up realm. It is a sinking ship and we are trying to jump off like rats onto transcendental liferafts wherever we find them.

 

 

One man has this attitude and the one standing next to him doesn't. Who should we believe? It's completely our choice. The only question is why we choose the mindsets we do.