[TTC Study] Chapter 16 of the Tao Teh Ching

[sree]

Thank you for your translation, Mr Chi. The accompanying Chinese text is very useful. But what is your understanding of this Chapter? What is the message as you see it?

[XieJia]

there is no greater joy than knowing that my ketchup is going to run out.

Things having lived out its life; returns.

Ever since the beginning, all things have been such.

[ChiDragon]

You welcome Mr. sree

 

The knowledgeable native scholars interpreted this way.

 

To follow the course of Nature, one need to have a peace of mind by surrender oneself to serenity. To be objective in all matters to observe the changes in the universe. One will see the reciprocating cycle from the vitalization of all things. From that, it will be the natural routine of all matters. The natural routine of all matters then become the basic principles to be followed. One with an open mind by understand the basic principles will see things clearly. If not, there will be chaos.

 

Understand the basic principles, one will become encompass in all matters with great tolerance with no bias. Only, and only if, one with no bias may conform with the course of Nature(Ziren, 自然, natural); one who conform with Nature will conform with Tao. One may be long lasting by the cultivation of freeing the mind from distractions. Therefore, one who keeps the mind in a state of serenity and a clear heart with great wisdom will be free of danger.

[sree]

there is no greater joy than knowing that my ketchup is going to run out.

Things having lived out its life; returns.

Ever since the beginning, all things have been such.

 

What do you mean? You buying another bottle or does it magically refills itself?

I'm always concerned about things running out. The threads on my tires are running out.

They are expensive to replace.

 

Where did you buy your ketchup?

[sree]

Therefore, one who keeps the mind in a state of serenity and a clear heart with great wisdom will be free of danger.

 

This last line in your post above corresponds to Line 19 of Chapter 16: 沒 身 不 殆 which means "no body no danger".

 

沒 身 carries a very deep meaning. Could you discuss this concept and explain your perception of it?

[ChiDragon]

sree...

 

沒身 is a classic term.

 

As a classic interpretation:

沒: the end

身: body; life

 

沒身; until the end of one's life; lifespan.

沒 身 不 殆 : no danger in one's lifespan or no danger throughout one's life.

 

沒身 cannot be interpreted as "no body".

Edited December 11, 2012 by ChiDragon

[sree]

 

沒身 cannot be interpreted as "no body".

 

Why not, Mr Chi? Ordinarily, the body is associated with life, as if life cannot exist without the body.

 

Granted, the body cannot exist without life.

But can life exist without the body?

 

I am not talking about out-of-body existence or life after the death of the body.

I am talking about life beyond the body before the body dies.

 

Consider Lines 1 and 2:

1. 致 虛 極

2. 守 靜 篤 。

 

The above two lines advocate a quietude to observe how things come to be:

 

3. 萬 物 並 作 ，

4. 吾 以 觀 復 。

 

Perhaps, the absolute nature of reality is not what western science has defined it as.

How things work, in terms of accepted knowledge about the nature of reality, does not tells us how things come to be.

 

Mr Chi, is it possible that for the Tao Te Ching to be more relevant to life's fulfillment than western science?

[ChiDragon]

sree...

 

沒身 is a classic term.

 

As a classic interpretation:

沒: the end

身: body; life

 

沒身; until the end of one's life; lifespan.

沒 身 不 殆 : no danger in one's lifespan or no danger throughout one's life.

 

沒身 cannot be interpreted as "no body".

 

Direct translation is no body. However, please remember we are dealing with Classic Chinese. We must interpret its meaning in classic rather than modern Chinese.

[ChiDragon]

Why not, Mr Chi? Ordinarily, the body is associated with life, as if life cannot exist without the body.

 

Granted, the body cannot exist without life.

But can life exist without the body?

 

I am not talking about out-of-body existence or life after the death of the body.

I am talking about life beyond the body before the body dies.

 

Consider Lines 1 and 2:

1. 致 虛 極

2. 守 靜 篤 。

 

The above two lines advocate a quietude to observe how things come to be:

 

3. 萬 物 並 作 ，

4. 吾 以 觀 復 。

 

Perhaps, the absolute nature of reality is not what western science has defined it as.

How things work, in terms of accepted knowledge about the nature of reality, does not tells us how things come to be.

 

Mr Chi, is it possible that for the Tao Te Ching to be more relevant to life's fulfillment than western science?

 

Mr. sree, I think the Tao Te Ching says how things come to be rather than how things work. Furthermore, it was not to more relevant to life's fulfillment but rather it is the opposite. Anyhow, I don't see how that was fit into the western science.

[XieJia]

Good things, bad things;

Comes to end.

 

There's no greater joy than to know that you lived this life.

Like a pair of good old trainers; you well exhausted its life through using it fully.

 

In things' return, it is brought to completion.

Therefore one should not laments when the ketchup runs out.

[flowing hands]

Well to me how I interupt this chapter is thus;

 

Practice meditation/qigong, empty the mind and master the self. Be at one with other life and follow the eternal flow of the complex interaction of all life that is interwoven with each other.

 

Note that because we as humans have stepped out of this, disaster is following in the path we tread.

 

With this practice we can feel and know the source. Knowing the source we will be at one with heaven and earth.

 

We have cultivated the self, we have understood the nature of all things, we have transcended being and non being, of working without doing, of limitless possibilities. We will obtain the divine as we are at one with the Dao. We will transcend returning as we have entered into oneness with the Dao.

[Stosh]

By returning one would going back to the -potential -origin- stage- Tao

From dust to dust

Trancending that ?,,, I think not.

[Marblehead]

Therefore one should not laments when the ketchup runs out.

Besides, one can always go to the store and buy more.

[sree]

With this practice we can feel and know the source. Knowing the source we will be at one with heaven and earth.

 

At one with heaven and earth, are we free of the body and its limitations and vulnerabilities? Would I still have to work at a miserable job for a living? Would I still suffer itchy skin and tummy ache?

 

We have cultivated the self, we have understood the nature of all things, we have transcended being and non being, of working without doing, of limitless possibilities. We will obtain the divine as we are at one with the Dao. We will transcend returning as we have entered into oneness with the Dao.

 

What is your understanding of the nature of things? Does it corresponds with what science tells us about the nature of reality?

What is meditation? Is it a conscious activity of the brain?

 

Your contribution to the study of Chapter 16 is much appreciated.

[sree]

Direct translation is no body. However, please remember we are dealing with Classic Chinese. We must interpret its meaning in classic rather than modern Chinese.

 

Yes, Mr Chi. I am interpreting 沒身 in terms of classical Chinese and not in its vernacular form.

Thus, 身 does not mean "body" but denotes the material dimension or state.

Therefore, I would read 沒身 as transcendence of the material realm (where danger resides).

 

Mr. sree, I think the Tao Te Ching says how things come to be rather than how things work. Furthermore, it was not to more relevant to life's fulfillment but rather it is the opposite. Anyhow, I don't see how that was fit into the western science.

 

By fulfillment, I meant Line 10. 知 常 曰 明. Western science is knowledge, not wisdom.

 

Knowledge is necessary for chopping wood, making fire and boiling eggs for filling the tummy. But knowledge cannot throw light on the Tao Te Ching to unlock the mystery of how things come to be.

[Stosh]

That would kind-of knock out any reason to read it , wouldnt it?

[Marblehead]

But knowledge cannot throw light on the Tao Te Ching to unlock the mystery of how things come to be.

But wisdom is gained through knowledge. Sure, there are those times when we experience wisdom intuitively but I suggest that those times are rare.

 

Y'all keep reading the TTC and continue gaining knowledge until wisdom is gained, and then, do away with knowledge and live intuitively with the wisdom you have gained through knowledge.

[flowing hands]

At one with heaven and earth, are we free of the body and its limitations and vulnerabilities? Would I still have to work at a miserable job for a living? Would I still suffer itchy skin and tummy ache?

 

 

 

What is your understanding of the nature of things? Does it corresponds with what science tells us about the nature of reality?

What is meditation? Is it a conscious activity of the brain?

 

Your contribution to the study of Chapter 16 is much appreciated.

 

The nature of all things is simply to be born, to find a way to live and reproduce, to grow old and die. Within this there is the multi faceted interactions of humans with humans, other animals and life with humans, other life with other life, the underlining energy that gives life; the universal princple, the real understanding of the unversal principle. Being at one with heaven and earth, you will still have a body and have to do a boring job to pay for your life! But once you have been enlightened you can look forward to an everlasting life as a spirit. To meditate is to start to let go of all the things that you have learnt, all the things that you are, until the mind is completely empty. Once there you can be what you want to be for you are at one with the great source.

[manitou]

There is the aspect too, where this chapter focuses on stilling the mind - in other words, to stop the chatter is the same as making no distinctions; and further, to make no judgments. This is the optimal mindset. When we don't place 'good' and 'bad' on things we are serene in accepting life as it is, not as we think it should be. Boring, itchy, miserable....these are all judgments and choices. The Tao is found by nonjudgment and loving attention to what is in front of us.

[manitou]

But wisdom is gained through knowledge. Sure, there are those times when we experience wisdom intuitively but I suggest that those times are rare.

 

Y'all keep reading the TTC and continue gaining knowledge until wisdom is gained, and then, do away with knowledge and live intuitively with the wisdom you have gained through knowledge.

 

I would add that there must be a component of self-realization in attaining the inner wisdom as well. The wisdom of experiential realization.

[Marblehead]

I would add that there must be a component of self-realization in attaining the inner wisdom as well. The wisdom of experiential realization.

Absolutely! I would even go so far as to suggest that self-realization preceeds the useful attainment of knowledge and wisdom.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, Mr Chi. I am interpreting 沒身 in terms of classical Chinese and not in its vernacular form.

Thus, 身 does not mean "body" but denotes the material dimension or state.

Therefore, I would read 沒身 as transcendence of the material realm (where danger resides).

 

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By fulfillment, I meant Line 10. 知 常 曰 明. Western science is knowledge, not wisdom.

 

Knowledge is necessary for chopping wood, making fire and boiling eggs for filling the tummy. But knowledge cannot throw light on the Tao Te Ching to unlock the mystery of how things come to be.

 

Mr, sree. I had given you the scholastic interpretation. Most people would like to have their own personal interpretation which is fine. However, personal interpretation is not my expertise. Anyway, I will be glad to contribute my assistance in case you have encountered any difficulty with the meaning of the characters or phrase. You may use as reference in your own interpretation. If not, it's fine too.

 

I have seen "Western science" was used often in your posts. May I ask what is the reason behind that...???

 

 

PS....

So, let nature take its course.......

Edited December 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[flowing hands]

To add to what I said earlier and what MH & Manitou said the 'self' is the key to all things, its knock-on effect to the world is ENORMOUS.

Really the idle mind chatter is a beginners perception of what is changing, going deeper than this one can realize that there is no difference from one life to another and one can experience being a completely different life in the same body. We are but energy with a cellular over coat, but we are all the same!

[sree]

That would kind-of knock out any reason to read it , wouldnt it?

 

You've nailed it, pal. But do you get it?

 

No one gets it. That's why we all read it.

[sree]

But wisdom is gained through knowledge. Sure, there are those times when we experience wisdom intuitively but I suggest that those times are rare.

 

If wisdom can be gained through knowledge, then every Harvard MBA would be billionaires. Have you ever experienced wisdom? Is there such a thing at all?

 

Y'all keep reading the TTC and continue gaining knowledge until wisdom is gained, and then, do away with knowledge and live intuitively with the wisdom you have gained through knowledge.

 

Knowledge can certainly be gained through reading the Tao Te Ching if one wants to study the literary style of classical Chinese. It certainly is a masterpiece in poetic expression. I cannot see what else can be gained from a bunch of Chinese characters. The foreign translations of the Tao Te Ching are something else. As Mr Chi said, most people, namely translators and their readers, would like to have their own personal interpretations and that is fine. But personal interpretations are just that - personal, nothing more.