is it possible to hurt yourself by meditating?

[beoman]

Is it possible to damage yourself in some way by just sitting there and meditating?

 

I ask because I was sitting there, meditating, yesterday. Felt a build-up in my head/crown area. Realized there was some fear of something bad happening associated w/ the build-up, so I was able to diminish the fear and build-up more. Then my vision started getting filled with these clusters of things - nothing shaped, not really white light, but something blocking the vision. It felt like my head would explode. After a bit of this I decided was getting too uncomfortable and I didn't want to hurt myself, so I opened my eyes to stop. I couldn't see anything even with open eyes except the cluster things. I shook my head, tried to stop focusing, and eventually they diminished, except now I was seeing colors really weirdly. The background was a deep orange tint. Looking at my hand, the outline of my hand was black, and the flesh was green and purple. Eventually the colors restored to normal, but 'twas weird/scary for a bit.

 

Anyway, if I kept going, could I have damaged something? Or maybe just experienced something unpleasant but not ultimately damaging? (Or maybe something wonderfully pleasant?)

[Jetsun]

What sort of meditation are you doing?

[beoman]

What sort of meditation are you doing?

 

Buddhist meditation. Generally Vipassana, with either noting practice or just being aware of everything. Sometimes I do Samatha and try going through the jhanas.

 

That is my background. At the given moment I just noticed the build-up and focused on that, along with the fear associated with it as I mentioned.

[markern]

Yes it has been done many times. But fire paths are generally a lot more dangerous than just doing Vipassana. However, I have also felt like my head would explode from VIpassana and backed of as I felt more could well be damaging. Have you tried any grounding methods? Too much energy in the higher centers are rarely good and the most common source of ill side effects from meditation. You could try some standing meditation (zhan zhuang) and maybe also open your microcosmic orbit. THings will usually be smoother after doing that. Springforestqigong has a cd called small heavenly corcuit or something about opening the orbit that has gotten much good feedback.

[Jetsun]

Buddhist meditation. Generally Vipassana, with either noting practice or just being aware of everything. Sometimes I do Samatha and try going through the jhanas.

 

That is my background. At the given moment I just noticed the build-up and focused on that, along with the fear associated with it as I mentioned.

 

I am sure the more experienced practitioners will give advice but I think that sort of meditation is safe as long as all the noting is done softly without aggression. Do you ever use the breath or have any other sort of anchor? perhaps it could help so any strong forces or fears are brought back into context of the present moment more easily, from my own experience without an anchor I can get pulled away and overwhelmed/over-identified by some of the stronger forces in my mind which makes the practice destructive.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Jetsun

[forestofclarity]

What were your instructions you were following? What was your posture, and breathing? How long?

 

Buddhist meditation. Generally Vipassana, with either noting practice or just being aware of everything. Sometimes I do Samatha and try going through the jhanas.

 

That is my background. At the given moment I just noticed the build-up and focused on that, along with the fear associated with it as I mentioned.

[Jetsun]

Yeah as people have mentioned grounding is very important, I remember reading in I think it was the 'Spiritual Emergency' book by Stanislav Grof that during a meditation retreat one of the members started having distressing experiences so they halted all his meditation immediately and started him on a programme of physical work, walking and running in order to ground his energy before he returned to meditation. Other grounding things which help are walking barefoot on the earth and eating root vegetables like carrots, potatoes, yams etc

[beoman]

What were your instructions you were following? What was your posture, and breathing? How long?

 

Hmm... I believe I might have been sitting with the intent to see what would happen, but without any initial idea to make something happen. But pretty quickly I began noticing mental states. Like I thought I was entering a jhana, and noticed a surge of trying to get into the jhana, and identified it as greed/desire. Soon I noticed the build-up, and the fear with it, and then I focused on allaying the fear and increasing the build-up to see where that would go.

 

I was sitting on a somewhat comfortable chair, leaning back. I wasn't trying to breathe any particular way, so I suspect it was abdominal breathing. This event happened pretty soon after I sat, maybe the whole sitting, build-up, decision to stop, shaking off the colors took 15 minutes?

[beoman]

Do you have a vipassana/insight meditation teacher? Or, an insight meditation center in your area? Sounds like guidance from a teacher may be helpful to you at this time in your practice.

 

No particular teacher, just MCTB and thetaobums, Dharma Overground, and Kenneth Folk Dharma forums. Perhaps a teacher could be useful.. but I feel I'm somewhat far along and it would take some time for where the teacher thinks I am to synch to where I think I am (which could be wrong of course), so for now I'll keep experimenting on my own + posts like this one. But I'll keep this suggestion in mind!

 

I had a feeling that maybe something would happen, but it was scary / had a feeling of not being ready. The consensus here seems to be.. back off, relax, ground yourself, then try again later. Sounds like good advice =). I'm learning the tai chi form so I can do the part that I know so far.

 

Note: I have a good closedown for my meditation (as taught by my teacher), that allows the energy not to stagnate/build up in specific body parts once meditation is over. For me, this has probably been a very good grounding process, and is an integral part of my meditation practice.

Could you share the technique, or is it private?

 

Best to you in safely progressing on your path. _/\_

thanks! to you (and everyone else here) as well.

[forestofclarity]

Beoman,

 

My bet is that KFD and DhO would tell you its A & P, a temporary state. I've notice that rapid noting can lead to exactly the sort of vision/distortion problems you are talking about. I have a few reservations about it, but nothing I'm willing to share in public.

 

I would agree with what the others said about grounding. I doubt that it would hurt you physically, although it can be mentally destabilizing. I'd also think about working on the shamatha side of the house as well.

[beoman]

Hi forestofemptiness. Do I read you correctly? Grounding can be mentally destabilizing? I had not heard this view before. Would you share your additional thoughts?

 

Thanks.

 

I think he meant, what I was doing is probably not physically harmful though it could be mentally destabilizing, therefore grounding might be a good idea.

[C T]

Gaps between two thoughts become more pronounced during meditation. The noticing of this voidness often arouses fear and loathing in some practitioners at certain times, yet there will also be times when bliss and ecstasy replaces the fearful apparitions . Find some way to familiarize yourself with these empty spaces - this is a good grounding practice for your particular enquiry. Neither avert when you notice the fear, nor cling to the blissful states should they arise. Both are empty... they come out of the void, and since their nature is empty, they return to the void. You cannot be harmed by these unless you give permission to be harmed, usually through excessive post-meditative mental analysis. Understand the basis of all that arises are impermanent and non-self. When you keep this in view, there is nothing to really prevent you from going further along the path.

 

Familiarity is vital. It leads to a kind of comfort, like when you step into your own room, you dont feel afraid or apprehensive for obvious reasons. Noticing these gaps is, in the beginning, like stepping into a strange room... it puts us on edge. But when we return to the same room again and again, the fear goes away.

 

In the bigger picture, there is this thing about the bardo of death, which happens when we die, and according to the teachings on the bardo, what the subtle consciousness experiences at that point is also a bit similar to what you have described here, albeit in a very much heightened and much more intensive fashion. Those who are unfamiliar, or who meet death unexpectedly, will become confused and bewildered by what appears, and as a countermeasure, immediate and reflexive grasping at familiar past memories ensue, which is one way to explain the inability to escape the wheel of rebirth. So you are actually quite fortunate to get to experience such unfoldings now as these are opportunities to learn how not to be afraid in the bardos. When you can master these appearances and see their illusory nature as insubstantial, therefore cannot harm you, this sets the groundwork for you to navigate the bardos fearlessly, whereby you can then choose where and how you want to return. Of course, this is explained here not in too great a detail, so if you want to know more, a good source to get more understanding on the bardos is The Tibetan Book of the Dead, and i understand Chogyam Trungpa's commentary is very good. Here: http://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Book-Shambala-Pocket-Classics/dp/0877736758

 

 

Another thing i want to mention is the method, or a kind of ritual that some buddhist meditators find helpful when they delve deeper into their meditation practice, and that is to keep in mind the 3 Noble Principles of meditation practice: Good in the beginning, Good in the middle, and Good in the end. Before starting your session, check your motivation. During the session, be mindful of your aspiration (for example, why do you practice? To ease your own burdens alone, or could you enlarge your compassion to include the easing of other's burdens as well? ). And then at the close of practice, dedicate whatever merit you think you have derived from the session to the welfare and happiness of all sentient beings. When your meditation is structured in this manner, there is really nothing to be worried about during your practice.

 

Wishing you all the very best.

Edited January 7, 2011 by CowTao

[ben]

[ben]

[Vajrahridaya]

The above is an example of emasculation. It would appear that the outbreak of Thusness in some countries like Tibet, contributed to cultural, political, technological and military impotence. Any ideology that dose not allow for the effective running of a country and the protection of its borders, is at best an intellectual luxury should be confined to the world of academia. (A field that has more than its fair share of specialist group’s, with specialist knowledge, with specialist language – sorry which ‘post’- theory are we at again?) The real question is: is there any room for Buddhism? Maybe in psychology but that is an area that takes the Self as a givin , desire is always good in the West.

 

Western songwriters are wiser than a lot of the crap spoken in the name of the Dharma.

 

Ben Who Makes Way.

 

Have you been reading that Communist Chinese propaganda again?

 

Have you even read any of the autobiographies or even stories from the regular people of Tibet who share their experience of being Tibetan before the atrocity of the Chinese invasion?

 

They were generally speaking, very happy and free people, mostly serene due to freedom from all our worldly concerns. Happy to work hard and pursue their spirituality through the complete and wholly perfect path of Vajrayana.

 

Because they didn't join the world in the race for material gains and accumulating a vast armory of weaponry, they are somehow in your mind, inferior?

 

I find that the opposite is true.

 

Also desire is well respected and utilized in Vajrayana for the purpose of self liberation through energetic inquiry and understanding. It is not repressed.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

[Vajrahridaya]

Is it possible to damage yourself in some way by just sitting there and meditating?

 

I ask because I was sitting there, meditating, yesterday. Felt a build-up in my head/crown area. Realized there was some fear of something bad happening associated w/ the build-up, so I was able to diminish the fear and build-up more. Then my vision started getting filled with these clusters of things - nothing shaped, not really white light, but something blocking the vision. It felt like my head would explode. After a bit of this I decided was getting too uncomfortable and I didn't want to hurt myself, so I opened my eyes to stop. I couldn't see anything even with open eyes except the cluster things. I shook my head, tried to stop focusing, and eventually they diminished, except now I was seeing colors really weirdly. The background was a deep orange tint. Looking at my hand, the outline of my hand was black, and the flesh was green and purple. Eventually the colors restored to normal, but 'twas weird/scary for a bit.

 

Anyway, if I kept going, could I have damaged something? Or maybe just experienced something unpleasant but not ultimately damaging? (Or maybe something wonderfully pleasant?)

 

You might just want to balance your practice with some moving forms of meditation. You can do all sorts, both Taoist and Tibetan or Indian. Even some Hatha Yoga might be good for you, but I'm more of a fan of Yantra Yoga as it's fluid and specific in it's alignment of body with breath and energy, with nice specific breathing that goes a long with the movement of the physical postures. It also has Buddhist origins.

 

Yantra Yoga Tibetan Yoga of Movement

 

This video explains it better than I. It is the oldest recorded form of yoga in the world.

 

By the way... I've experienced exactly what you are talking about... and yeah... it's strange, but nothing to be frightened by.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

You might just want to balance your practice with some moving forms of meditation. You can do all sorts, both Taoist and Tibetan or Indian. Even some Hatha Yoga might be good for you, but I'm more of a fan of Yantra Yoga as it's fluid and specific in it's alignment of body with breath and energy, with nice specific breathing that goes a long with the movement of the physical postures. It also has Buddhist origins.

 

Yantra Yoga Tibetan Yoga of Movement

 

This video explains it better than I. It is the oldest recorded form of yoga in the world.

 

 

I found Yantra Yoga too much. Maybe I'll learn it later if I can take a class, but right now I'm enjoying sun salutations. Very simple flow of movements and easier to learn. Vinyasa Yoga is also fluid and most yoga aligns with breath. Nothing wrong with yantra yoga at all, but it's not beginner friendly and not easy at all to learn from the book or dvd.

 

 

 

OP, I'd highly recommend the book Healing with Form. It's excellent, and you would be benefit from getting it and doing the simple practices inside which work on healing each element. Sounds like you have an energy imbalance, as we all do really lol. I have the book in pdf form. Here it is: http://filevo.com/n102r7xf0fas.html

 

Tenzin Wangyal released a book/dvd this month called Awakening the Sacred Body which focuses on releasing prana blockages and imbalances using Tibetan energy practices. I just got it, and it's quite good.

[ben]

[adept]

[Vajrahridaya]

I found Yantra Yoga too much. Maybe I'll learn it later if I can take a class, but right now I'm enjoying sun salutations. Very simple flow of movements and easier to learn. Vinyasa Yoga is also fluid and most yoga aligns with breath. Nothing wrong with yantra yoga at all, but it's not beginner friendly and not easy at all to learn from the book or dvd.

 

 

The beginner 9 movements is very easy to learn. I learned them in one training session and continued at home with the VHS.

 

Also, Vinyasa is not as precise about the breathing with the flow of movement as Yantra Yoga. I've done both for years, well Vinyasa for longer. My mother did this and other forms of Hatha yoga while I was in the womb and my first coordinated body movements were in fact hatha yoga postures due to my mothers daily practice during her 9 months with me.

 

Tenzin Wangyal released a book/dvd this month called Awakening the Sacred Body which focuses on releasing prana blockages and imbalances using Tibetan energy practices. I just got it, and it's quite good.

 

Hmmm... Tenzin Wangyal is

Edited January 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

It is questionable that any movement form that dose not optimize blood circulation through the torso is at all relevant to modern people with the busy stressful lives that we all enjoy. So what are these Vajra dance space cadets trying to achieve? Depending on the dance integration of body, voice and speech or another dance that has a rather ambitious purpose of manifesting the Six Pure dimensions or wisdoms of Samantabhadra, mmmm…can that be proved? The supreme realization in Dzogchen is the Jalus or rainbow body. I would argue that such a goal can be described as a ‘deconstruction’ . So it stands to reason that the practice of Vajra dance is a gradual approach to deconstruction of the Self and the function/chi (WILL TO MANIFEST) of the body would be neglected in such a process. I don't see Vajra dance as a effective embodiment of the Way.

Dzogchen had mythic beginnings in the land of the magicians, Oddiyana. The historicity of Garab Dorje –‘the first human teacher of Dzogchen in this time line’, ad nauseam- is questionable at best. If you’re a shit stirrer like me then you might propose an appropriation of a shamanic tradition by Buddhism.

 

First it would be better to compare with Yantra Yoga or Trul Khor as Vajra Dance is more of a merging the rigpa state of mind with body movement and not so much with energy manipulation. So, your entire comparison is really quite a bad one too, being based upon the premise of choosing the wrong process or practice to compare from.

 

Second, your projections are funny! Like a child grasping at a toy placed on a shelf too high above his head, unable to reach it and play with it, he tells stories to himself about what it might be like and in his innocent naiveté, believes these self made stories to be true.

 

Jalus (Body of Light) is not a process of de-construction, but rather dissolving and relaxing.

 

If your lifes goal is merely longevity and is not enlightenment? Then I can understand how you would think the goal of Dzogchen might be lofty and "spaced out dude."

 

Just an interesting anecdote to end on, Ip Shui, the late Grand Master of Southern Praying Mantis was a chain smoker, he also lived well into his late 90’s. Even in old age he would invite young students to try and crush his windpipe with their hands –none succeeded. Chinese methods could potentially revolutionize Western Health Care and could lead to a post-Thusness world.

 

Ben

.

 

George Burns lived to be 100 and he smoked cigars with a much higher level of any form of toxin than cigs.

 

So again, your comparison is rather undernourished.

 

Also this whole idea of yours of Buddhism being merely some sort of de-construction process is quite false. It's also a process of developing ones energy through the body and power of mind. One uses the philosophy of self de-construction in order to have awareness of the parts that make up Bens ego. So it's foolishness can be better understood.

 

From the way you talk, I wonder what you think about the Chinese invasion of Tibet?

 

Also, Tibetan Medicine could also revolutionize Western Health Care.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Ip Shui was one of the greatest martial artists ever.

Much respect to anyone who practices Southern Mantis. It is a devastating art.

 

Yes, but was he peaceful, free from inner turmoil, spontaneously joyous, compassionate and loving?

 

Who knows? I don't know.

[ben]

Ip Shui was one of the greatest martial artists ever.

Much respect to anyone who practices Southern Mantis. It is a devastating art.

Tian Hui was also one of the greats. A master of Yin Yang Ba GUa Zhang, I style not derived from the other ba gua. Could shake 4 bodies off him when lying face down!

[ralis]

 

 

Jalus (Body of Light) is not a process of de-construction, but rather dissolving and relaxing.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, Tibetan Medicine could also revolutionize Western Health Care.

 

In your view, dissolving and deconstructing are the same. The process leading to the rainbow body is both dissolving and deconstructing. Why? The component parts of the body have been transformed to light and only the hair and nails are left. The structure of the body is gone. Therefor, deconstructed.

 

As far as Tibetan medicine is concerned, you give it too much credit. Norbu's life was saved from leukemia by traditional Western medicine. Obviously, he could tell the difference and chose the latter. Further, their medicine has no knowledge of parasitology and microbiology. Some of the basis for their medicine rests in a superstitious belief of demons infecting and causing disease. For example the 8 classes that cause provocation.

 

Why does most everyone that becomes involved in Eastern religions, attempt to transplant the entire culture over here?

 

I have to agree with Ben in that Tibet forgot or was just naive in terms of, taking care of affairs of the state. By not joining and being a signatory with the League of Nations, Tibet had no international backing or protection. To accuse him of reading Chinese propaganda is ludicrous!

 

In terms of the happy blissed out Tibetan citizen living prior to the cultural revolution, I believe that is an illusion. Life was hard living at an average elevation of 12,000 feet, with short growing seasons, short life spans, disease and no knowledge of sanitation. If as you claim, that Buddhism has absolute knowledge of the workings of the cosmos, then knowledge of bacteria and disease would be second hand.