sunshine Posted February 1, 2011 Blessed TaoMeow, I LOVE you more. You have intelligence, determination and articulation for starters. You are my dreamgirl.. Please, I Ching might favor me? Oh boy... you are encouraging Ego... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine Posted February 1, 2011 Point taken, YM... there is something to historical facts that I indeed like - still history has some truth that changes over time... that is part of it. Harry, In Daoism, as well as in life, there is no such a thing as "mastering a system". Daoism is not a university where you get your degree and you can call yourself a Dr or what. It is a never-ending process of self discovery and progress, there is no end. Different masters, in this respect, may give you different approaches to that progression and lead you further along the way. Don't mistake Daoism for the martial arts, there are no "new techniques" or "secret strikes" to be learned. When a student is well along the path he will learn in many ways and from different sources, and it is historically proved that this approach works. Then again every one is entitled to see things as they fit, I was just presenting an historical fact and not an exclusive solution for all. Thanks YM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted February 1, 2011 Blessed TaoMeow, I LOVE you more. You have intelligence, determination and articulation for starters. You are my dreamgirl.. Please, I Ching might favor me? Sweet! You have a generous heart. I will ask the oracle... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Procurator Posted February 1, 2011 Harry, In Daoism, as well as in life, there is no such a thing as "mastering a system". Daoism is not a university where you get your degree and you can call yourself a Dr or what. It is a never-ending process of self discovery and progress, there is no end. that is a really strange thing to say for a historically well versed expert as YM surely is. of course there WAS a strict graduation path in any daoist tradition. one wonders what daoism YM talking about, a pop one? then he is right. Different masters, in this respect, may give you different approaches to that progression and lead you further along the way. Don't mistake Daoism for the martial arts, there are no "new techniques" or "secret strikes" to be learned. uh-huh..that is why koujue is so ubiquitous a term. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Friend Posted February 1, 2011 Think of it this way... What master Wang teaches is not a "product" that has gone through a process of packaging and presentation so as to look attractive to the customer who's been preemptively trained to expect his or her consumption of goods and services to be facilitated in a particular fashion by the producing industry. It is not a product that is going to get cheaper once knock-off versions are mass-produced. It is not a commodity. It is not an entitlement. It is not something someone promised to deliver, satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. It is not a basic right. It is not a trendy must-have goodie. Not a fad to abide by. Not a basic necessity. It is not a constitutional guarantee. It is hard to come by and will always be. It is expensive and until the world abolishes money it is likely to remain so. It is unique. You don't demand a Rembrandt original for your living-room just because you want it. By the same token, you don't demand things of a taoist immortal. You take what is offered, gratefully, or you say "no thanks" and look elsewhere for what pleases your heart's desires. It's as simple as that, and it is not likely to get simpler. I like your post Taomeow, I want to Quote the Author Bruce Kumar Frantzis from the Book" Relaxing into you beeing - Tao Meditation Vol.1" "When people buy a produt - goods or service- they have a ressonable right to querry what expectations the product is going to fulfill, in what period of time. BUt meditation is not a product. However much or little practise, it only gives you oppurtunity to gain access to yourself- it does not give the guarantee" It is wise to learn from an authorized teacher first -cost not much- and meditate a period with this method to see if one likes it and resonate with it before one go to the Grandmaster - well I think we cherish our money and time and the Grandmaster his energyabillity and time. Everything is a waste when one not practise regulary after learning an art. And more a waste if one not go prepared to an Intensiv Seminar, the Grandmaster CAN give your more as long your System can cope with it- also the teacher with their authorization are able to do this on their level which should be already terrifying. Going to the teachers first would be good to see into the Lineage. Those in Europe can see if they find time in Summer when there is a Seminar with Qin Ling in Germany again and taking a weekend to see if they like it, dates are not confirmed, just a future planning - before they put a Intensiv Seminar with the Grandmaster himself at the end of the year. Q Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moskovadao Posted February 1, 2011 that is a really strange thing to say for a historically well versed expert as YM surely is. of course there WAS a strict graduation path in any daoist tradition. one wonders what daoism YM talking about, a pop one? then he is right. uh-huh..that is why koujue is so ubiquitous a term. Thank you, TianShi. In fact this is confirmed the strict graduation path in any authentic daoist tradition. by now, we should know to stay away from fuzzy practices that lead nowhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
taozen Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) I like your post Taomeow, I want to Quote the Author Bruce Kumar Frantzis from the Book" Relaxing into you beeing - Tao Meditation Vol.1" "When people buy a produt - goods or service- they have a ressonable right to querry what expectations the product is going to fulfill, in what period of time. BUt meditation is not a product. However much or little practise, it only gives you oppurtunity to gain access to yourself- it does not give the guarantee" It is wise to learn from an authorized teacher first -cost not much- and meditate a period with this method to see if one likes it and resonate with it before one go to the Grandmaster - well I think we cherish our money and time and the Grandmaster his energyabillity and time. Everything is a waste when one not practise regulary after learning an art. And more a waste if one not go prepared to an Intensiv Seminar, the Grandmaster CAN give your more as long your System can cope with it- also the teacher with their authorization are able to do this on their level which should be already terrifying. Going to the teachers first would be good to see into the Lineage. Those in Europe can see if they find time in Summer when there is a Seminar with Qin Ling in Germany again and taking a weekend to see if they like it, dates are not confirmed, just a future planning - before they put a Intensiv Seminar with the Grandmaster himself at the end of the year. Q Qin Ling and Viktor are great, authorized teachers. Still their students ultimately study with Grandmaster as Qin Ling and Viktor encourages them to. Several attended Grandmaster's recent Intensives. As for an authorized teacher in the US, however, word is you had BETTER go study with Grandmaster himself directly.... [delete] ... you best study directly with Grandmaster as not to waste your precious time. Edited February 7, 2011 by Apech Mod Action Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YMWong Posted February 2, 2011 that is a really strange thing to say for a historically well versed expert as YM surely is. of course there WAS a strict graduation path in any daoist tradition. one wonders what daoism YM talking about, a pop one? then he is right. I am talking about real knowledge, wisdom and personal growth while you are talking about standard education. Anyway, I certainly don't know much about daoist history or anything so I'd be glad to learn a little from you. For instance, as you ask what daoism I am talking about, what "graduation" did Qiu Chuji (founder of Longmen daoism, which is of course "the daoism I am talking about" given the title of the thread) got from his teacher ? At what time in his path did he "master his system" and get his "degree"? And, by the way, how how did his teacher learned ? Thanks YM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YMWong Posted February 2, 2011 And, by the way, how how did his teacher learned ? Here is a short summary of Wang Zhe's (Longmen founder Qiu Chuji's teacher) life and how he got to be one of the most influential daoist master of his times. I can hardly see any "strict graduation path" in there (source http://books.google.com/books?id=EXVk1tr6lEYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=daoism+handbook&hl=en&ei=uA9JTZLgKouKvgOhysH7Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=wang%20zhe&f=true) YM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Procurator Posted February 2, 2011 And, by the way, how how did his teacher learned ? Thanks YM u just presented the material that refutes yr argument: "he met two xians who instructed him in series of SECRET rituals" and obviously graduated him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YMWong Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) unfortunately YM the terms u use have no place in tradition. those are wishy-washy newagee meaningless words LOL, "taking vows" 受戒 is now a "goal" in daoism ... you made my day Happy New Year 'tianshi' YM Edited February 2, 2011 by YMWong 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Procurator Posted February 2, 2011 LOL, "taking vows" 受戒 is now a "goal" in daoism ... you made my day Happy New Year 'tianshi' YM chunjie kuaile! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Procurator Posted February 2, 2011 Thank you very kindly for sharing your knowledge with us, dear TianShi. We love your input! i heart u 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
henro Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Tianshi, how much of that was borrowed from Buddhism, and was not part of the early practices of Taoism ? I think that's what YM is getting at. Edited February 2, 2011 by robmix 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johndoe2012 Posted February 2, 2011 so now Taoism has more precepts than Buddhism? Sorry, I don't believe it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Procurator Posted February 2, 2011 Tianshi, how much of that was borrowed from Buddhism, and was not part of the early practices of Taoism ? I think that's what YM is getting at. well, i dont think that was what he was getting at;but yours is a thoughtful question. see, much of the form WAS indeed borrowed from CHINESE buddhism. however the substance of chinese buddhism is daoism repackaged. so the substance of the "new" development that was the Quanzheng school was and is unadulterated early practices of taoism, its the external form that was tweaked a bit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Procurator Posted February 2, 2011 Qin Ling and Viktor are great, authorized teachers. Still their students ultimately study with Grandmaster as Qin Ling and Viktor encourages them to. Several attended Grandmaster's recent Intensives. However, students have been displeased with the incompetence of the two US authorized teachers. oh the mods did not like the stolen pens part, huh? it figures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moskovadao Posted February 2, 2011 oh the mods did not like the stolen pens part, huh? it figures. let the truth be known.. it's only fair that we students know some facts to decide for ourselves whether to study with an incompetent US authorized teacher. i've always thought it best to go directly to the source, straight study with Grandmaster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moskovadao Posted February 2, 2011 Qin Ling and Viktor are great, authorized teachers. Still their students ultimately study with Grandmaster as Qin Ling and Viktor encourages them to. Several attended Grandmaster's recent Intensives. ---Moderators edit: personal insults deleted--- I heard similar feedback. but more peculiar is the US authorized teacher is trying to make the April Intensive a lower price from last year by not compensating Grandmaster's translator for this year. The all inclusive cost is $3900 as usual but that rep is advertising for less so any student signing up through her will unsuspectingly pay the full $3900 when they arrive for the Intensive anyway. Why the misleading advertising? it is unfair to students who will be soo upset that she misled them! what is she doing? promoting conflict? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seongye Posted February 2, 2011 Qin Ling and Viktor are great, authorized teachers. Still their students ultimately study with Grandmaster as Qin Ling and Viktor encourages them to. Several attended Grandmaster's recent Intensives. -- Moderators edit: personal insults deleted -- how disgraceful. now at least all US students know not to waste their high hopes and can proceed directly to study with Grandmaster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaoAlchemist Posted February 2, 2011 Qin Ling and Viktor are great, authorized teachers. Still their students ultimately study with Grandmaster as Qin Ling and Viktor encourages them to. Several attended Grandmaster's recent Intensives. ---Moderators edit: personal insults deleted--- We've known the above for a while now. You shouldn't post this though; it's really quite common knowledge amongst students but you might frighten away new students. taozen, Please remove this asap! for new students, please please note that one rep does not adequately portray the image of this school. when students do not do keep up with their practice, they should no longer represent the practice. so please understand that other students have attained very good levels, thus the worldwide support for Grandmaster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
