True Self

[ralis]

The problem is that much of what you say on this forum is not accurate from every point of view in buddhism. Certainly not from the Dzogchen point of view, which is the definitive view of Vajrayana.

 

I absolutely agree. That is why I started the "Ideology of Exclusivity" thread. He wants exclusive rights to be absolutely right and make everyone else wrong.

Edited January 13, 2011 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

The problem is that much of what you say on this forum is not accurate from every point of view in buddhism. Certainly not from the Dzogchen point of view, which is the definitive view of Vajrayana.

 

Alwayson, as far as what I've read of your expressed understanding, I will have to say that this view of yours is based upon your own understanding of which I do not share. As for me, all the different views from the different vehicles are actually the same view, if you can bridge the gaps experientially, you can understand this truth. The first statement of Shakayamuni is no different from the goal of Dzogchen. Mind and it's manifestations are pure and free since beginningless time. To really understand Dependent Origination/Emptiness is to experience directly Rigpa, liberated awareness, clean, crisp, pure, and flexible.

 

... Dzogchen without Buddhism? By Lappon Namdrol

 

here's a clipping from the article, and to read the entire thing, click on the link above.

 

"Finally in terms of the path: Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has clearly enunciated many times the following point: there are three sacred principles without which a given practice that one is doing is not Dzogchen: these principles are going for refuge, developing bodhicitta motivation, and dedicating merits. Going for refuge is not defined by reciting some words; it is defined by the recognition of problems with one's own understanding and knowledge, and a desire to find the solution to these problems in Buddhas, such as Samantabhadra, Vajrasattva, Śākyamuni, Garab Dorje and so on, their teachings, the Dzogchen teachings, which include the meaning of all yānas; and the Sangha of Dzogchen, the vidyādharas such as Śrī Siṅgha, Padmasambhava and so on and bodhisattvas such as Mañjuśrī, Avalokiteśvara and Vajrapani.

 

Motivation does not mean mouthing words about saving all sentient beings, here it means that it is not sufficient to merely seeks one's own liberation, whether through Dzogchen or any other vehicle, one must have compassion and loving kindness as one's basis for entering practice.

 

Dedication here means that we dedicate all our practice to others, in the usual Mahāyāna way, not necessarily with words, but with our intention, so that all others will reach the state of the adibuddha, Samantabhadra, quickly.

 

Without these, whatever practice we are doing cannot be considered Dzogchen practice let alone Buddhist.

 

Dzogchen without Buddhism therefore is "Ati Lite™". It may sound good, it may look good, it might have a nice package, but in the end, it has no value. It is not spiritually nourishing, it is spiritually depleting.

 

Ati Lite™ will have the exact opposite effect of Dzogchen: instead of becoming a more open, more humble person, one will become more self-involved and afflicted. Instead of developing a broader mind, free and flexible, able to accommodate changing conditions, one will become more and more constricted, selfish and narrow. And in the end, one will have nothing worth giving to anyone."

 

-Lappon Namdrol

Edited January 14, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[RongzomFan]

Hi Vaj,

 

I did read that on the blog, but Namdrol is talking about other stuff.

 

My point is that you mainly talk about Theravada stuff, which is not applicable to Vajrayana, let alone Dzogchen.

 

Although I agree Dzogchen is the same enlightenment as Shakyamuni Buddha, the various yanas are definitely NOT compatible.

 

Emptiness and dependent origination are explained differently in Dzogchen. It is explained differently is Madhymakia. It is explained differently in Yogacara.

 

One of the biggest errors in Dzogchen is to use a lower yana understanding.

Edited January 15, 2011 by alwayson

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

My point is that you mainly talk about Theravada stuff, which is not applicable to Vajrayana, let alone Dzogchen.

 

 

Experientially it is, and it can be explained conceptually.

 

Although I agree Dzogchen is the same enlightenment as Shakyamuni Buddha, the various yanas are definitely NOT compatible.

 

They certainly are, otherwise Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche would not teach them in his Precious Vase. The article explains it, and I think you might need to deepen your understanding of his words and read the implications or ramifications.

 

Have you read the Kunjed Gyalpo?

 

Emptiness and dependent origination are explained differently in Dzogchen. It is explained differently is Madhymakia. It is explained differently in Yogacara.

 

Sure, they are explained differently leading to the exact same experience, though manifested differently dependent upon the individual capacity. Still... Buddahood is awake is Buddhahood.

 

It's the same experientially in the end, no matter how the Nirmanakaya enacts that Dharmakaya dependent upon the vehicle.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[RongzomFan]

They certainly are, otherwise Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche would not teach them in his Precious Vase.

 

 

usually when Norbu explains it is to differentiate Dzogchen teachings as the path of self-liberation.

 

And Namdrol always says that Dzogchen is an independent vehicle. Its on his blog.

[Vajrahridaya]

usually when Norbu explains it is to differentiate Dzogchen teachings as the path of self-liberation.

 

And Namdrol always says that Dzogchen is an independent vehicle. Its on his blog.

 

Yes, but not in the sense that it can be divorced from the entirety of Buddhism and there is a reason for that. It's an independent vehicle just like hinayana is and mahayana is and vajrayana is except it cuts right to the liberated experience from the very beginning even with the style of dialectic in the semsde cycle. But, there is a reason why he teaches it deeply soaked with mahayana and vajrayana.

 

Have you received transmission from ChNNR? Have you done his Termas? They are very Mahayana (bodhichitta)/Vajrayana (transformation) with the focus on Dzogchen (instant presence) view as experience, which is no different really from just understanding the intention of all the vehicles, and there is even progressive integration taught in it for the sake of those that don't get it immediately, which is going to be 99.9 percent of all people. For instance...

 

From Wiki:

 

"The essence of the Dzogchen teaching is the direct transmission of knowledge from master to disciple. Garab Dorje epitomized the Dzogchen teaching in three principles, known as the Three Statements of Garab Dorje (Tsik Sum Né Dek):

 

1. Direct introduction to one's own nature (Tib. ngo rang thog tu sprod pa)

2. Not remaining in doubt concerning this unique state (Tib. thag gcig thog tu bcad pa)

3. Continuing to remain in this state (Tib. gdeng grol thog tu bca' pa)

 

In accordance with these three statements, Garab Dorje's direct disciple Manjushrimitra (Tib. 'jam dpal bshes gnyen) classified all the Dzogchen teachings transmitted by his master into three series:

 

1. Semde (Wylie: sems sde; Skt: cittavarga), the series of Mind, that focuses on the introduction to one's own primordial state;

2. Longde (Wylie: klong sde; Skt: abhyantaravarga), the series of Space, that focuses on developing the capacity to gain familiarity with the state and remove doubts; and

3. Menngagde (Wylie: man ngag sde, Skt: upadeshavarga), the series of secret Oral Instructions, focusing on the practices in which one engages after gaining confidence in knowledge of the state." (what can result in Jalus or Rainbow Body/Body of Light)

 

And ChNNR teaches these 3 cycles in progression, especially these days. You have to qualify to receive Longde and the same with Menngagde. Certain texts are not available to you if you have not received these transmissions as well.

 

Experiencing Rigpa clarifies the view of all the vehicles of Buddhism into a seamless whole, experientially... allowing for the goal of all vehicles to manifest through as Nirmanakaya. ChNNR has said this as well. He said that this was his experience when getting transmission from his main root guru. He said that the intention of all the teachings he had received previously all of a sudden became clear on an intuitive level.

 

Dzogchen is not different from the first statement of Shakyamuni, nor is it different from the intention of all the vehicles in essence, it's only different in it's approach. But every teacher supports it with Mahayana and Vajrayana.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[RongzomFan]

Yes, but not in the sense that it can be divorced from the entirety of Buddhism and there is a reason for that.

 

 

Of course Dzogchen is not divorced from buddhism. Dzogchen is the epitome of buddhism. But it CAN be divorced from the lower yanas.

 

And refuge and bodicitta is a PART of Dzogchen, so you can't divorce those elements. They are Dzogchen elements that are coincidentally shared with Mahayana.

Edited January 15, 2011 by alwayson

[Vajrahridaya]

Of course Dzogchen is not divorced from buddhism. Dzogchen is the epitome of buddhism. But it CAN be divorced from the lower yanas.

 

And refuge and bodicitta is a PART of Dzogchen, so you can't divorce those elements. They are Dzogchen elements that are coincidentally shared with Mahayana.

 

It's not a coincidence.