the authenticity of masters?

[mewtwo]

So um i was watching youtube and saw the russian pyro was a fake and well thought what about the other masters out there. like john chang or master jo anyone ever debunk them? what about other ones i cant think of?

 

 

Also if the western student of john chang still posts here may i ask why did you not proced and learn all you could from john chang?

 

 

Sorry if this sounds rude i dont meen for it to.

[NeiChuan]

So um i was watching youtube and saw the russian pyro was a fake and well thought what about the other masters out there. like john chang or master jo anyone ever debunk them? what about other ones i cant think of?

 

 

Also if the western student of john chang still posts here may i ask why did you not proced and learn all you could from john chang?

 

 

Sorry if this sounds rude i dont meen for it to.

 

You probably won't find out if a cultivation teacher is authentic on the internet. Best thing to do if try learning from the ones around you.

 

Maybe save up some money over the years and stop by the ones you're interested in.

 

But often make sure they'll actually teach. Nothing like traveling over seas and then being told your trip was in vain.

 

Haven't experienced that myself.

Edited January 10, 2011 by NeiChuan

[Gerard]

Real masters don't display siddhis in public. They don't need to. I have witnessed a siddhi in action and the whole world knows nothing about this spiritual practitioner. She lives in complete obscurity and so she will remain. She has got zero interest going public.

 

Edited: typo.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Gerard

[mewtwo]

may i ask what siddhi you witnessed?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Most of the spiritual community is not interested in seeking validation for a teacher's claims. There is a lot of rhetoric which has created an atmosphere in which the teacher is just assumed to be right.

 

"Where the footsteps of the master falls, only the willing will be able to hear." Translation: if you don't believe I am legitimate, you are obviously not ready for my teaching.

 

"Well it's spirituality, and that can't be proven." Translation: though one may claim to be able to do things like light stuff on fire, or move stuff, they aren't going to because "you can't prove it."

 

"If you show doubt, it will damage your progress, because you must believe in order to achieve results." Translation: if you are a skeptic, you will never be able to get anywhere. And if you have practiced for a long time and don't have anything, it means you were doing it wrong, and deep inside, you never believed it.

 

"People can't be persuaded by other people, no matter how much evidence, you have to prove it to yourself." Translation: I'm going to keep making claims. But I'm not going to prove it. If I do, it will be a demonstration on MY terms. If you ask questions, or if you know a way I could have faked it, it obviously means that I'm right, so I'm just not going to do it again. If you want to prove it, do it yourself.

 

And seeing as how in some systems, it can take years, DECADES, even, to get to a point where you can produce some sort of ability, well....... I'm sure there are lots of "believers" out there, running in their hamster wheel, and never going to get anything. Because obviously they just didn't believe

 

 

That's not to say there aren't real masters out there. That there aren't real people teaching real things to other real people who are getting real results. I am sure there are. But they aren't really in the public sphere. For whatever their reason, they don't want to be out and about. And that's their right. Unfortunately, that also makes it easy for charlatans to exist side by side, have an equal chance of getting students, and gain all sorts of things for their own person based on, essentially, a scam.

 

And what's sad, is that a fraud can actually be using material from a LEGITIMATE source (respected lineage, capable teacher, or something else). So, even real material can be misused. Of course, that also means that some frauds (SOME), are not without value. And I say that last bit with GREAT reservation.

 

 

So what do you do?

 

Well if you don't believe it's possible, just quit. Or at least, don't do your practice thinking powers are going to come somewhere down along the line. It's not really a safe bet. Of course, doing a practice because you want a new outlook on life, because it makes you happy/gives you piece of mind, well that's all well and good, no problems then!

 

if you think there are powers to be had, or you want a practice that gets them, find a teacher or holder of a lineage who has proclaimed to have had them, or that they could be gotten, and try it out. If it feels right to you, great, keep going. Find a teacher who seems upfront, honest, and legitimate. If they aren't willing to directly show anything, well you're either going to have to give them the benefit of the doubt, or just quit. Because again, the odds aren't very good that they're being truthful. Doesn't mean they're lying, just saying, you're taking a gamble with your time and/or money.

 

Ideally, you can practice in person with the teacher in question. If not, go with reliable books or DVD's. I'm of the opinion that with the right amounts of work and dedication, that you can learn something functionally well from a book or DVD source. But I should point out that books should make up around 10% of your total work. 90% should be practice to gain lots of personal experience. It's important to have a RELIABLE book or DVD source. Because as you go back and read/watch, you will see things you didn't see before, or you will notice different areas. I've sat and watched the same three seconds of someone doing a tai chi clip for nearly 30 minutes, because each time I saw those three seconds, I was looking at something in particular, had noticed something, wanted to see how not to do it, where I was going wrong, etc etc.

 

Though not everyone has access to a personal teacher, for a relatively cheap price you can find a lot of really genuine instruction. Far better than what some teachers do in person!

Edited January 10, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[mewtwo]

20 Eric Zammitt // Oct 15, 2007

 

Hi Gyula,

 

I have since discovered that “Master” Zhou is a fraud.

 

I went to see him. I got a massage from him and he did his thing with the foil and wet paper towel. It got hot alright, but afterwards when he left the room to wash his hands I dipped my finger in the “water” that he used on the foil and touched it to my tongue. It burned! It tasted like something very caustic. Also, the water was milky white. I got to my car as quickly as possible and washed my mouth with water for a long time. I forgot about rinsing my finger, and later I must have rubbed my eye and it burned for hours. I didn’t confront Zhou at the time. He doesn’t speak English, and I wanted time to think.

 

I did some research and discovered that Sodium Hydroxide, NaOH, commonly known as Lye, reacts with aluminum and generates great heat. Chronic exposure to this would also be consistent with the roughness of Zhou’s hands, and the fact that they are discolored very dark, kind of blackish purple.

 

I called his other office where they speak English and told them what happened. They didn’t believe me (or were lying) but agreed to tell Zhou that I wanted to meet with him and have him prove to me that he actually has some kind of power. He agreed surprisingly, and I met with him yesterday.

 

I brought my own materials (paper towels, foil, water, and container). He grabbed the material and began to prepare them on his glass-topped work table(why an auxiliary glass top? It’s just water, isn’t it? Conveniently chemical resistant. The Formica table it covered wouldn’t suffice) . He brought it to my shoulder and I could hear it sizzling as it passed my ear before he even put it on my shoulder and began to “put Qi into it”. I stopped him. I wiped my finger on the wet table and tasted it, and got that same chemical taste. I insisted that we prepare on his wood waiting table. I began to prepare the stuff myself and he said (this is all through an interpreter by the way) that he needed to touch the foil himself. I haggled with him about that, but he insisted that he had to touch the foil. I let him begin. He was getting his hands wet and splashing the water on the foil and paper towels and splashing on the table too. He put it on my shoulder and though it took a lot longer than usual, it began to sizzle and heat up. I then insisted that I taste his hands! And again, that same chemical taste. I then prepared the foil myself against his wishes, and put it on my shoulder, and he refused to try to heat it up. He said he gave me one chance and that was all he was going to give. Then I told him that I would let him prepare the materials again, but let me try to put Qi into it without him (I’m sure it would have heated up). Again he refused.

 

I also asked him why he needed foil at all. I told him that I had been to several other QiGong doctors, and studied with a QiGong master (both true) and all of them directed Qi with their hands alone. He wouldn’t give me a straight answer.

 

As we were speaking the water that he had splashed on the wood table had turned the finish white. I pointed that out and he tried to explain it away and shrug it off at the same time.

 

I told him that I felt betrayed by him. The he attracted me under false pretenses and that he was only doing a cheap magic trick, and that I deserved my money back for my last visit. After a minute of haggling he agreed to give me half my money back because he thought he should be paid for the massage he gave me.

 

If he were for real, he would have really let me prove his power (if he had, he would have had a loyal follower, and referrals to all my friends and family), and he never would have agreed to any kind of refund.

 

I am not denigrating the practice of Qi Gong, or of Chinese medicine, I am denegrating Mr. Zhou. He is a fraud, stealing through deceit, from ailing people.

 

If you still want his contact information, his number is 310.478.1798. But be warned.

 

Eric

 

 

 

Found this post online.

 

 

http://www.seekingwholeness.com/wisdom/inspirational/qigong-master-jo-zhou-boils-water-with-qichi-from-his-hands

Edited January 14, 2011 by mewtwo

[Dainin]

Since you seem to be fascinated by "special powers", here a few places you can learn them from:

 

 

Skills of the Vagabonds

 

 

Coney Island Sideshow School

 

 

Once you've developed these "special powers", you can use them impress the students of your new formless school of qigong, Grand Master!

[pennyofheaven]

Real masters don't display siddhis in public. They don't need to. I have witnessed a siddhi in action and the whole world knows nothing about this spiritual practitioner. She lives in complete obscurity and so she will remain. She has got zero interest going public.

 

Edited: typo.

 

They don't ask for money either.

Edited January 15, 2011 by pennyofheaven

[Sloppy Zhang]

Prophecy and Veos, two semi-active members on this forum: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php are high level practitioners of Franz Bardon's Initiation Into Hermetics. They combine this with yoga. They seem to have much experience and knowledge. Several years ago, when that particular board had lots of members, they would occasionally get together. Apparently Veos and Prophecy did some interesting things. I followed up with them a little while ago (which is several years after the last forum get together) and asked if they would do any sort of demonstration or something like that. They said no, because in their experience demonstrations did not do anything (large numbers of students they had apparently demonstrated to wound up quitting practice after a while).

 

They said that instead they preferred to just monitor the training of their students until the students got to a point where they could do stuff on their own. But they won't name names of who can do what, because that would be a breach of privacy.

 

So they aren't going to prove it, but it's about as close as you can get to 1) a method which promises some sort of abilities combined with a path of spiritual cultivation 2) a decent sized number of people who say that it really works (though, as with any other group, nobody seems to be doing much to actively prove it, but they've proved it to themselves countless times!), and 3) is an easily accessible, public method which has all the steps and progression laid out, with the only thing you need to do is practice.

 

William Mistele is also an experienced practitioner of Bardon's method: his website and seems to be fairly approachable and very helpful in the couple of times I've exchanged e-mails with him. Haven't asked him about proof, haven't really seen any of his writings on it, don't know his philosophy or how he'd answer.

 

Bardon's method is one of the few paths that say, "not only will you develop spiritually, but you will gain abilities. You WILL gain abilities, it is part of the development, if you do the practice correctly, they WILL happen." But from what I can tell, they wind up saying the same things as every other spiritual group that claims to have powers, but actively avoids ever having to do them to provide any proof.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Kali Yuga]

Prophecy and Veos, two semi-active members on this forum: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php are high level practitioners of Franz Bardon's Initiation Into Hermetics. They combine this with yoga. They seem to have much experience and knowledge. Several years ago, when that particular board had lots of members, they would occasionally get together. Apparently Veos and Prophecy did some interesting things. I followed up with them a little while ago (which is several years after the last forum get together) and asked if they would do any sort of demonstration or something like that. They said no, because in their experience demonstrations did not do anything (large numbers of students they had apparently demonstrated to wound up quitting practice after a while).

 

They said that instead they preferred to just monitor the training of their students until the students got to a point where they could do stuff on their own. But they won't name names of who can do what, because that would be a breach of privacy.

 

So they aren't going to prove it, but it's about as close as you can get to 1) a method which promises some sort of abilities combined with a path of spiritual cultivation 2) a decent sized number of people who say that it really works (though, as with any other group, nobody seems to be doing much to actively prove it, but they've proved it to themselves countless times!), and 3) is an easily accessible, public method which has all the steps and progression laid out, with the only thing you need to do is practice.

 

William Mistele is also an experienced practitioner of Bardon's method: his website and seems to be fairly approachable and very helpful in the couple of times I've exchanged e-mails with him. Haven't asked him about proof, haven't really seen any of his writings on it, don't know his philosophy or how he'd answer.

 

Bardon's method is one of the few paths that say, "not only will you develop spiritually, but you will gain abilities. You WILL gain abilities, it is part of the development, if you do the practice correctly, they WILL happen." But from what I can tell, they wind up saying the same things as every other spiritual group that claims to have powers, but actively avoids ever having to do them to provide any proof.

 

What exactly are you supposed to be able to demonstrate using the Bardon method? What abilities are you supposed to have? I would like to know..

 

I have somewhat an aversion to Kaballah though.. I like things simple and straight to the point.

[Sloppy Zhang]

What exactly are you supposed to be able to demonstrate using the Bardon method? What abilities are you supposed to have? I would like to know..

 

Well as is written in the book itself, clairvoyance, clairaudience, and clairsentience are basic, fundamental skills that should be developed as part as training- as this would allow you to interact fully and capably with beings/energies from other realms.

 

Being able to manipulate the vital force for healing purposes, or to implant a desire or particular energy into an object/area is another aspect of development.

 

Depending on the level of development with a particular element, levitation, walking on water, and lighting things on fire are also within the grasp of the magician.

 

These are actually written in "Initiation Into Hermetics"...

[gendao]

I am not denigrating the practice of Qi Gong, or of Chinese medicine, I am denegrating Mr. Zhou. He is a fraud, stealing through deceit, from ailing people.

No, Eric Zammitt is not denigrating qigong or TCM - Mr. Zhou is. I basically had the same experience and came to the same conclusion.

 

I don't know if he has any ability at all - but it's obvious that this particular technique of his is a con job.

 

Funny thing though is, I also heard of some patients who claimed they felt he really helped them. Maybe they fooled themselves or experienced a placebo effect or some marginal ability. Who knows? But, I wouldn't exactly trust someone in general who pulls off frauds like this...

[henro]

A friend of mine just told me about a local qigong master who has quite a bit of power, but he didn't remember the name. So he sends me the info in an email and it turns out to be Zhou. My friend also said he felt healed by this guy, and recommends him very highly. . . . Maybe Zhou does have some actual skills but feels the need to pull off magic tricks due to insecurity or the need to impress Westerners ??

[Mokona]

I met one guy with amazing skill and experience but no one on the forum he visited would take seriously the stuff he spoke about, he eventually became frustrated and left the internet scene. I'm glad I found him before he did.

[fiveelementtao]

A friend of mine just told me about a local qigong master who has quite a bit of power, but he didn't remember the name. So he sends me the info in an email and it turns out to be Zhou. My friend also said he felt healed by this guy, and recommends him very highly. . . . Maybe Zhou does have some actual skills but feels the need to pull off magic tricks due to insecurity or the need to impress Westerners ??

 

the placebo effect also works very well. Sometimes it is the patient who does the healing. Many western studies conclude that placebo patients have very good recovery rates when they believe they are receiving treatment when in actuality they are not.

 

Hawaiian shamanism uses this kind of approach quite often.

[freesun]

the placebo effect also works very well. Sometimes it is the patient who does the healing. Many western studies conclude that placebo patients have very good recovery rates when they believe they are receiving treatment when in actuality they are not.

 

Hawaiian shamanism uses this kind of approach quite often.

 

In fact they even work when the patient knows he is being given a placebo: http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=placebos-work-even-when-you-know-10-12-23

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[mewtwo]

who eric i have never been to master zhou.

[BlackSword]

Edited January 22, 2011 by BlackSword

[BlackSword]

Edited January 22, 2011 by BlackSword

[BlackSword]

Edited January 22, 2011 by BlackSword

[Vajrahridaya]

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche I have found gives the most inexpensive retreats filled with information and practices, as well as transmission and even gives transmission for free regularly online. His retreats are also sliding scale or you can work for the retreat if you are really hurting monetarily.

 

I'm also disappointed at the high cost of Wang Liping Retreats. Even though I respect him to a degree... I don't know enough about him to make a concrete opinion, but his fees are atrocious.

[zerostao]

Most of the spiritual community is not interested in seeking validation for a teacher's claims. There is a lot of rhetoric which has created an atmosphere in which the teacher is just assumed to be right.

 

"Where the footsteps of the master falls, only the willing will be able to hear." Translation: if you don't believe I am legitimate, you are obviously not ready for my teaching.

 

"Well it's spirituality, and that can't be proven." Translation: though one may claim to be able to do things like light stuff on fire, or move stuff, they aren't going to because "you can't prove it."

 

"If you show doubt, it will damage your progress, because you must believe in order to achieve results." Translation: if you are a skeptic, you will never be able to get anywhere. And if you have practiced for a long time and don't have anything, it means you were doing it wrong, and deep inside, you never believed it.

 

"People can't be persuaded by other people, no matter how much evidence, you have to prove it to yourself." Translation: I'm going to keep making claims. But I'm not going to prove it. If I do, it will be a demonstration on MY terms. If you ask questions, or if you know a way I could have faked it, it obviously means that I'm right, so I'm just not going to do it again. If you want to prove it, do it yourself.

 

And seeing as how in some systems, it can take years, DECADES, even, to get to a point where you can produce some sort of ability, well....... I'm sure there are lots of "believers" out there, running in their hamster wheel, and never going to get anything. Because obviously they just didn't believe

 

 

That's not to say there aren't real masters out there. That there aren't real people teaching real things to other real people who are getting real results. I am sure there are. But they aren't really in the public sphere. For whatever their reason, they don't want to be out and about. And that's their right. Unfortunately, that also makes it easy for charlatans to exist side by side, have an equal chance of getting students, and gain all sorts of things for their own person based on, essentially, a scam.

 

And what's sad, is that a fraud can actually be using material from a LEGITIMATE source (respected lineage, capable teacher, or something else). So, even real material can be misused. Of course, that also means that some frauds (SOME), are not without value. And I say that last bit with GREAT reservation.

 

 

So what do you do?

 

Well if you don't believe it's possible, just quit. Or at least, don't do your practice thinking powers are going to come somewhere down along the line. It's not really a safe bet. Of course, doing a practice because you want a new outlook on life, because it makes you happy/gives you piece of mind, well that's all well and good, no problems then!

 

if you think there are powers to be had, or you want a practice that gets them, find a teacher or holder of a lineage who has proclaimed to have had them, or that they could be gotten, and try it out. If it feels right to you, great, keep going. Find a teacher who seems upfront, honest, and legitimate. If they aren't willing to directly show anything, well you're either going to have to give them the benefit of the doubt, or just quit. Because again, the odds aren't very good that they're being truthful. Doesn't mean they're lying, just saying, you're taking a gamble with your time and/or money.

 

Ideally, you can practice in person with the teacher in question. If not, go with reliable books or DVD's. I'm of the opinion that with the right amounts of work and dedication, that you can learn something functionally well from a book or DVD source. But I should point out that books should make up around 10% of your total work. 90% should be practice to gain lots of personal experience. It's important to have a RELIABLE book or DVD source. Because as you go back and read/watch, you will see things you didn't see before, or you will notice different areas. I've sat and watched the same three seconds of someone doing a tai chi clip for nearly 30 minutes, because each time I saw those three seconds, I was looking at something in particular, had noticed something, wanted to see how not to do it, where I was going wrong, etc etc.

 

Though not everyone has access to a personal teacher, for a relatively cheap price you can find a lot of really genuine instruction. Far better than what some teachers do in person!

95% of the dvd's i have purchased. the creator of the dvd has been willing to take emails and phone calls from me to answer any questions. they are also willing to view video to make corrections. for me i like dvd's and books becoz i can rewind and re look at certain movement. when i am ready to practice, so is the dvd and book. alot of these guys also run workshops/seminars and you can visit them in person occasionally. there is alot to choose from out there. do your homework. i have a teacher i visit in person and also a main dvd teacher. they compliment each other nicely. i also sample other dvds just to compare. if i can get one new nugget out of a dvd i am ok with that. i am not ok to take decades for ability. unless you are talking master ability. for me every 3-6 months should be noticable progress. 2-3 years substantial progress.

[zerostao]

Just like this Kung Fu Master say here:

 

http://ymaa.com/netcasts/episode3

 

yes these Master say that he would even traind the students using his own money

 

so shame to Wang Liping and all these high fees master

 

for me i belive they are all fools

also this master being yang jwing-ming i have much respect for. he is not my main dvd teacher. but i have some of his dvds and books.but the reason i reply here is. there is land adjacent to his retreat center in northern cali. up for sale now. he would be an interesting neighbor , i am sure. this retreat center is on my list of places to visit this year. redwoods oh yeah.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend