[TTC Study] Chapter 17 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

It's that time again.

 

Chapter 17

 

John Wu

 

The highest type of ruler is one of whose existence the people are barely aware.

Next comes one whom they love and praise.

Next comes one whom they fear.

Next comes one whom they despise and defy.

When you are lacking in faith,

Others will be unfaithful to you.

The Sage is self-effacing and scanty of words.

When his task is accomplished and things have been completed,

All the people say, "We ourselves have achieved it!"

 

 

English/Feng

 

The very highest if barely known.

Then comes that which people know and love.

Then that which is feared,

Then that which is despised.

Who does not trust enough will not be trusted.

When actions are performed

Without unnecessary speech,

People say, "We did it!"

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

With the highest [kind of rulers], those below simply know they exist.

With those one step down—they love and praise them.

With those one further step down—they fear them.

And with those at the bottom—they ridicule and insult them.

When trust is insufficient, there will be no trust in return.

Hesitant, undecided! Like this is his respect for speaking.

He completes his tasks and finishes his affairs,

Yet the common people say, “These things all happened by nature.”

 

 

Questions/Comments?

Edited January 10, 2011 by Marblehead

[Mr. T]

hey all,

 

just for a little comparison action, d. lin's translation....

 

The highest rulers, people do not know they have them

The next level, people love them and praise them

The next level, people fear them

The next level, people despise them

If the rulers' trust is insufficient

Have no trust in them

 

Proceeding calmly, valuing their words

Task accomplished, matter settled

The people all say, "We did it naturally"

 

 

i really like this chapter. it seems interesting that trust is brought up where it is...talking about the hierarchy of ruling abilities capped off with some words on trust...i assume then that trust is of the utmost importance between leader/led, ruler/ruled, teacher/student, etc?

 

i also love the multifaceted aspect of the ttc. this chapter has meaningful things to say to both sides of this equation (leader/followers, etc). the first line is really powerful to me in that it says different thing if you are reading it from the perspective of the follower or the perspective of the leader. it's almost frightening to think that i don't know who is in control! i guess i have to trust them to have my best interest at heart....

 

really good chapter....

[Marblehead]

i really like this chapter. it seems interesting that trust is brought up where it is...talking about the hierarchy of ruling abilities capped off with some words on trust...i assume then that trust is of the utmost importance between leader/led, ruler/ruled, teacher/student, etc?

 

Hi Mr. T,

 

Yes, trust (dependability) is very important in any relationship. The concept is very important in my life. Doesn't matter the relationship, if dependability is not established trust will never grow.

[Easy]

Hi Mr. T,

 

Yes, trust (dependability) is very important in any relationship. The concept is very important in my life. Doesn't matter the relationship, if dependability is not established trust will never grow.

 

Yes, trust is the issue. Briefly I am going to bring in (as is my want) the Cleary translation. Bear in mind it is more a word-for-word translation from the old texts rather than an interpretation from preceding ones.

 

17.1 Very great leaders in their domains are only known to exist. Those next best are loved and praised. The lesser are feared and despised.

17.2 Therefore when faith is insufficient and there is disbelief,

17.3 it is from the high value placed on words. Works are accomplished, tasks are completed, and ordinary folk all say they are acting spontaneously.

 

Note that it is much shorter and it has the feeling of being brief and direct in contrast to the more interpretive renditions like English/Fen. (I like the English/Fen because it expands the chapter's fundamental concepts beyond just the realm of governmental operations simply by leaving out the word "leaders.")

 

Now look at how Cleary translated the part about speech: "Therefore when faith is insufficient and there is disbelief, it is from the high value placed on words."

 

I think the warning here is equal to the lesson learned by all those idealistic Democrat kids in the last presidential election in the USA. When all the valued words from the campaign trail are stripped away it is revealed that Obama has been a Republican all along.

Edited January 12, 2011 by Easy

[Marblehead]

Hi Easy,

 

I had to laugh at your last paragraph. (I'm not gonna' get into politics. Hehehe.)

 

But yes, strip away the words and watch the action. Indeed, the very good leaders rule without so many words. The ministers do their job and the people think that everything is the way it is supposed to be and that they have succeeded in attaining a good life.

 

I have not read Cleary's translation yet so I have not formed any 'feeling' toward it.

 

Yes, dualistically, when faith is lacking the opposite appears; disbelief.

[Mr. T]

howdy!

 

you know, the last few posts brought up something that i do find interesting about our interpretations of historical taoism, and that is the political side of it. i always got the impression that a segment of tao practitioners were involved politically to some extent. we obviously do not have that tradition here in the west (at least not in the us that i am aware of), so do you think our understanding of this chapter is especially minimized by the a-political nature of taoism in the west?

 

does anyone have the translation for business leaders? i would be interested to read this chapter in that book!

 

also, does anyone know of any taoist government official here in the west, either the states or elsewhere?

Edited January 13, 2011 by Mr. T

[majc]

does anyone have the translation for business leaders?

Sup T bag. For one that works with an exec's point of view, try this:

 

Exceptional leadership is mostly unnoticed.

 

The next best leadership is followed and praised.

The next best leadership is feared.

The worst leadership is hated.

 

With uncertainties involved,

there's always doubt.

 

The Master understands this well.

 

He succeeds when people say,

"We did it on our own."

 

http://www.openwisdom.org/tao-te-ching/#17

Edited January 22, 2011 by majc

[Marblehead]

Thanks for those last two posts Mr. T and Majc.

 

Very important considerations to the chapter.

[dawei]

Here is my translation:

 

太上,下知有之。

其次親而譽之。

其次畏之。

其次侮之。

信不足焉，

有不信焉。

悠兮其貴言，

功成事遂，

百姓皆謂我自然

 

 

The best rulers are barely known by the people

The next rulers are the ones loved and praised

The next rulers are the ones feared

The next rulers are the ones dispised

If his trust is insufficient

There is a lack of trust in him

If he is gentle, his words are valued

If the people feel:

Their work is accomplished and their affairs are completed

They will say:

This is our natural course of life

 

IMO, this chapter really rings for both Daoism and Confucianism. Confucius also thought that the king needed to stay out of people's affairs; Ruling less is best. When that ruling is done correctly, people are not even aware of being rule and find their life is more fulfilled with getting things done naturally and without interference.

 

The last line is:

百姓皆謂我自然

100 Surnames/Families/People Each-and-every Speak I'm natural

 

I actually moved the phrase "people" into the line before this since I see both lines as a continuous thought. I then left this line with just "they..."

 

百姓 - Bai (100) Xing (surnames): 100 surnames or families but sometimes translated as just [common] people. I have heard arguments whether this is really a reference to nobility since only nobility had surnames for the most part. But I don't agree since that is going back to the patriarchal phase and I think the 100 surnames go back to the matriarchal phase and thus there was no nobility per se.

 

自然 - Zi Ran. natural, naturalness or it-self-so-ing. A well known phrase which should be understood as closing the chapter. The people are most satisfied when life feels it is lived most naturally.

Edited February 27, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

IMO, this chapter really rings for both Daoism and Confucianism. Confucius also thought that the king needed to stay out of people's affairs; Ruling less is best. When that ruling is done correctly, people are not even aware of being rule and find their life is more fulfilled with getting things done naturally and without interference.

 

 

Agree. And it has been said, "The more laws a society has the more criminals there will be."

[lienshan]

The Guodian Laozi chapter 17

 

大 上 下 知 又 之

亓 即 親 譽 之

亓 即 畏 之

亓 即 侮 之

信 不 足 安 又 不 信 猷 乎

亓 貴 言 也 成 事 遂 功

而 百 姓 曰 我 自 然 也

 

An inferior wisdom has a great superior.

Its next to gives personal praise to it.

Its next to is afraid of it.

Its next to insults it.

Trust lacks; how is distrusting it planned?

The achieved merit of a completed work is its precious meaning,

yet do common people say: I am myself so!

 

Attributed to Muhammad "I am the greatest" Ali

 

Reading tips:

 

The three "it" 之 means "superior".

The three "its next to" 亓 即 means "great" (大 is next to 上)

Line six relates to "personal praise" in line two.

The last line tells, that "great superior" isn't "zi ran",

because common people too are great!

[Marblehead]

Hi Lienshan,

 

Here is Henricks' translation of that:

 

1 With regard to the very best rulers, the people below simply know they are there.

2 With regard to those one step down, they love them and praise them.

3 With regard to those another step down, they fear them.

4 And with regard to those yet another step down, they revile and insult them.

 

5 When trust is insufficient, there will be no trust in return.

6 Hesitant are they! In their cautious use of words.

7 They complete their affairs and finish their tasks,

8 Yet the common folk say, "These things happened all on their own!"

 

 

Attributed to Muhammad "I am the greatest" Ali

 

Yeah, we have heard many self-proclaimed "Greatests". Just another ego trip. I rather like Henricks' way of expressing it.

[ChiDragon]

dawei....

I preferred this approach. As long one display the original characters, regardless of what version that the translator was using, I can relate to the translation without guessing. Your translation of Chapter 17 reflects and in sync with the classic text. Indeed, it went so smooth that I do not have any comment to make.

Edited July 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

Here is Henricks' translation of that:

 

1 With regard to the very best rulers, the people below simply know they are there.

 

I rather like Henricks' way of expressing it.

1 大 上 下 知 又 之

 

大 上 in the first line is an exposed object (大 上 exposed is repeated by 之)

大 上 下 知 又 之 is thus equivalent to 下 知 又 大 上

and the verb is 又 because the 之 is after the verb by regular rule early/middle warring states.

 

Hi Marblehead.

 

Henricks treats 知 "know" as the verb, but 又 "have" is the verb due to classical chinese grammar!

His english is surely better than mine, but his first four lines are translated "wrong"

 

Henricks follows the wellknown versions and graduates after positions.

Those one step down are praised.

Those another step down are feared.

Those yet another step down are insulted.

 

But the Guodian version graduates the character 大 (great, greater, greatest)

Greatest (fantastic) is praised.

Greater (size) is feared

Great (fat) is insulted

 

The pointe of the Guodian chapter 17 is that the term 大道 is to avoid,

because 大道 means both great Dao, greater Dao and greatest Dao

Edited July 6, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Henricks treats 知 "know" as the verb, but 又 "have" is the verb due to classical chinese grammar!

His english is surely better than mine, but his first four lines are translated "wrong"

 

Hehehe. But I forgive him because, afterall, he is an Anglo.

 

Lin Yutang's first four are basically the same:

 

Of the bst rulers the people (only) know that they exist;

The next best they love and praise;

The next they fear;

And the next they revile.

 

Again, as I do not read the Chinese I rely on others. A key factor I look for is whether or not what is being translated is logical in the English (American) language. If it's not logical and doesn't make sense then this will lead only to much confusion.

 

We modern Americans don't think like the ancient Chinese elite thought. We need many things explained to us as simply as possible.

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. But I forgive him because, afterall, he is an Anglo.

 

Lin Yutang's first four are basically the same:

 

Of the bst rulers the people (only) know that they exist;

The next best they love and praise;

The next they fear;

And the next they revile.

 

Again, as I do not read the Chinese I rely on others. A key factor I look for is whether or not what is being translated is logical in the English (American) language. If it's not logical and doesn't make sense then this will lead only to much confusion.

 

We modern Americans don't think like the ancient Chinese elite thought. We need many things explained to us as simply as possible.

You have a nice sense of humor...

 

Here is the translation of the interpretation of an knowledgeable scholar 陳鼓應.

1. During the golden era, the people don't even know that the government had ever existed.

2. The second best, people are very close to and praise the government.

3. The worse government, the people are feared.

4. The next worse, the people are resented.

5. The government was untrustworthy,

6. The people will not trust it.

7. The best government doesn't issue decrees lightly,

8. And complete all affairs in an orderly manner.

9. All the people will say: for us that was only natural.

 

Received version.

1. 太上,不知有之。

2. 其次親而譽之。

3. 其次畏之。

4. 其次侮之。

5. 信不足焉，

6. 有不信焉。

7. 悠兮其貴言，

8. 功成事遂，

9. 百姓皆謂我自然

Edited July 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

You have a nice sense of humor...

 

Here is the translation of the interpretation of an knowledgeable scholar 陳鼓應.

1. During the golden era, the people don't even know that the government had ever existed.

2. The second best, people are very close to and praise the government.

3. The worse government, the people are feared.

4. The next worse, the people are resented.

5. The government was untrustworthy,

6. The people will not trust it.

7. The best government doesn't issue decrees lightly,

8. And complete all affairs in an orderly manner.

9. All the people will say: for us that was only natural.

 

Thanks.

 

Yes, I can deal with that translation and I think it honestly relates the concept being presented.

 

I think that if Lao Tzu really existed according to the stories told of him this would have been an obvious understanding for him.

[lienshan]

A key factor I look for is whether or not what is being translated is logical in the English (American) language. If it's not logical and doesn't make sense then this will lead only to much confusion.

 

Inferior scholars have a great -er -est superior.

Greatest when giving personal praise to him.

Greater when being afraid of him.

Great when insulting him.

Trust lacks; resulting in a scheme of distrust?

The fulfilled success of a completed task,

the superlative meaning of the phrase,

is like "myself" being added whenever common people say "I".

 

Therefore is even Greatest a belittling of Dao

resulting in benevolence and righteousness.

The six relations are not harmonious

resulting in filial piety and compassion.

The state matters are muddled and confused

resulting in appropriate officials.

 

 

I've placed the Guodian chapter 18 downunder

[Marblehead]

Therefore is even Greatest a belittling of Dao

resulting in benevolence and righteousness.

 

I don't know how accurate this translation is but I really like it.

 

I've placed the Guodian chapter 18 downunder

 

Yes, Henricks noted that the last two lines should be the first two lines of Chapter 18.

 

 

And I also think it is fair to use the word 'scholars' in place of 'rulers' (if the Chinese allows for it).

[lienshan]

I don't know how accurate this translation is but I really like it.

故 大 道 廢

therefore great dao belittling

 

"therefore greatest" due to the above "the superlative meaning of the phrase"

 

 

Yes, Henricks noted that the last two lines should be the first two lines of Chapter 18.

Henricks is wrong. His "last two lines" is half of one long last line:

 

(亓 貴 言) 也 成 事 遂 功 而 (百 姓 曰 我) 自 然 也

 

I've inserted () to show the two noun clauses marked by the two 也 characters.

The core of this sentence construction is 而 ... closed by 然

That's how to refer to what have been said. I will spare you for the detailes,

but Zhuangzi used the same sentence construction in his "fish dialogue".

 

 

And I also think it is fair to use the word 'scholars' in place of 'rulers' (if the Chinese allows for it).

I was inspired by ChiDragons knowledgeable scholar

[ChiDragon]

故 大 道 廢

therefore great dao belittling

 

"therefore greatest" due to the above "the superlative meaning of the phrase"

 

 

 

Henricks is wrong. His "last two lines" is half of one long last line:

 

(亓 貴 言) 也 成 事 遂 功 而 (百 姓 曰 我) 自 然 也

 

I've inserted () to show the two noun clauses marked by the two 也 characters.

The core of this sentence construction is 而 ... closed by 然

That's how to refer to what have been said. I will spare you for the detailes,

but Zhuangzi used the same sentence construction in his "fish dialogue".

 

 

 

I was inspired by ChiDragons knowledgeable scholar

lienshan...

Nice to see you here and there.

 

I don't mean to dispirit nor to despise you. I know you are making a big effort in learning the characters, but IMO you are in desperate need for some proper guidance. If you continue to make those erroneous assumption about the meanings of the characters, you are really confusing the public here.....

[Marblehead]

Henricks is wrong.

 

I beg your pardon! Hehehe.

 

Sounds like Immortal saying that Darwin was wrong. Hehehe.

 

(Of course, I am unable to argue my understanding.)

Edited July 7, 2011 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Oopps!

Edited July 7, 2011 by Marblehead

[lienshan]

Here is the translation of the interpretation of an knowledgeable scholar 陳鼓應.

1. During the golden era, the people don't even know that the government had ever existed.

2. The second best, people are very close to and praise the government.

3. The worse government, the people are feared.

4. The next worse, the people are resented.

5. The government was untrustworthy,

6. The people will not trust it.

7. The best government doesn't issue decrees lightly,

8. And complete all affairs in an orderly manner.

9. All the people will say: for us that was only natural.

The smallest scholar has the Greatest Superior.

Greatest when giving personal praise to him.

Greater when being afraid of him.

Great when insulting him.

Trust lacks and there is a mistrustful comparative form?

The superlative meaning of the degrees,

the glorious sublime of the job done,

is like "myself" being added whenever common people say "I".

Consequently, is Great Dao rejected

when there is benevolence and righteousness?

Are the six relatives not in harmony

when there is filial piety and love?

Is the family of states hegemonic

when there is a head and servants?

 

My commentary:

 

"the family of states" and "the six relatives" are the five hegemon states

Qi, Jin, Chu, Qin, Song, and the small dynasty state Zhou.

Edited July 13, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Interesting translastion. Thanks.