The Skeptic Within

[Cat Pillar]

Hello everyone...

 

I'd like to explore something with the community here in the hopes that someone may be able to offer an insight that will help me past a block.

 

As much as I try to remain open minded, a traumatic upbringing in fundamentalist Christianity has embedded in me a very deep mistrust of anything that claims to be spiritual. I saw so many liars and frauds that I became convinced there was no such thing as higher truth, only individuals out to manipulate my beliefs in order to control me.

 

This bitter and cynical worldview is not one I want to keep, but the patterns are so strong that it's very difficult to break them. I've started a meditation practice, and want to study inner alchemy, but I'm concerned that my cynicism will prevent me from making any progress beyond basic health benefits from the relaxation. Is that a valid concern?

 

Is there a practice that can overpower my worldview, or is it necessary to have faith before I can experience anything beyond the mundane? I'd like to avoid drugs...it would be too easy to dismiss anything I experienced as a simple drug-induced hallucination. Is there such a thing as a practice that will work even if you don't believe in it at first?

[Fire Dragon]

[Marblehead]

Hi Cat Pillar,

 

First let me say that I think Fire Dragon's response is excellent.

 

I too am a skeptic as a result of about the same conditions as yours.

 

Whatever practice you undertake, if it is for the development of body and well-being, will be good for you.

 

While you practice you will have inner experiences. These experiences will be coming from your (I chuckle while saying this) true self. What I am trying to say is that while you practice you are going to have physical experiences but you will also have emotional experiences. How you relate to these experiences will determine whether or not you will be able to connect with your higher levels of realization.

 

Have you read Chuang Tzu? I think he speaks very well to this concept but sadly there in no single place where he speaks to the concept comprehensively but rather it is an overlying theme in his writings.

 

My best wishes to you.

[pennyofheaven]

Hello everyone...

 

I'd like to explore something with the community here in the hopes that someone may be able to offer an insight that will help me past a block.

 

As much as I try to remain open minded, a traumatic upbringing in fundamentalist Christianity has embedded in me a very deep mistrust of anything that claims to be spiritual. I saw so many liars and frauds that I became convinced there was no such thing as higher truth, only individuals out to manipulate my beliefs in order to control me.

 

This bitter and cynical worldview is not one I want to keep, but the patterns are so strong that it's very difficult to break them. I've started a meditation practice, and want to study inner alchemy, but I'm concerned that my cynicism will prevent me from making any progress beyond basic health benefits from the relaxation. Is that a valid concern?

 

Is there a practice that can overpower my worldview, or is it necessary to have faith before I can experience anything beyond the mundane? I'd like to avoid drugs...it would be too easy to dismiss anything I experienced as a simple drug-induced hallucination. Is there such a thing as a practice that will work even if you don't believe in it at first?

 

Whatever you chose to do the skeptic in you might be a useful tool?

 

It is always helpful when we can question our own perceptions.

 

Whomever you learn off cannot give you the skill to do what you wish to do. They can only point to. So it matters not what you think of them if you are open to practicing what they teach. Only you can confirm within yourself as to the authenticity of what is being taught.

 

Then there are the things of the mind that a cultivator might not question. The skeptic in you might always question. This can be a good thing. It just might prevent you from being stuck in a cycle that you can move on from.

 

So it could be a useful tool?

[goldisheavy]

Hello everyone...

 

I'd like to explore something with the community here in the hopes that someone may be able to offer an insight that will help me past a block.

 

As much as I try to remain open minded, a traumatic upbringing in fundamentalist Christianity has embedded in me a very deep mistrust of anything that claims to be spiritual. I saw so many liars and frauds that I became convinced there was no such thing as higher truth, only individuals out to manipulate my beliefs in order to control me.

 

This bitter and cynical worldview is not one I want to keep, but the patterns are so strong that it's very difficult to break them. I've started a meditation practice, and want to study inner alchemy, but I'm concerned that my cynicism will prevent me from making any progress beyond basic health benefits from the relaxation. Is that a valid concern?

 

Being healthy is nothing to sneeze at. The way you say it, it sounds as if being healthy is just a stupid trifle. I think health is a bit better than a trifle.

 

Is there a practice that can overpower my worldview, or is it necessary to have faith before I can experience anything beyond the mundane? I'd like to avoid drugs...it would be too easy to dismiss anything I experienced as a simple drug-induced hallucination. Is there such a thing as a practice that will work even if you don't believe in it at first?

 

The practice is to examine your experience and your knowledge, and keep in mind, it's not a short-term game. You may achieve an amazing experience in a week, or an amazing insight in 2 days, but the path keeps going and going far beyond that. So it's not a sprint really, so don't try to look at it as a sprint.

 

Spirituality is all about honesty. I would define a spiritual state as simply a more honest state compared to the material one. Since it's all about honesty, you have to be honest with yourself. So if you don't believe something, don't try to pretend you believe it! Don't try to trick yourself. If you don't believe in miracles, then you don't believe in them. It's OK. Trying to force yourself to change your beliefs too quickly can result in mental instability. Changing beliefs is a gradual process that takes time. At each point of this process you have to be honest and always avoid tricking yourself.

 

Limiting beliefs can all be uprooted by questioning them, but only honest questioning has authentic power. In other words, you must really have these questions in your heart. If you don't have a wondering curious mind, then just asking questions mechanically is a waste of time, because mechanic questions are dishonest. You have to mean the questions for them to be honest ones. Honest questions have power over a long period of time.

 

And all that is just my, hopefully informed, opinion. Good luck!

[Moonbar]

Hello there Cat Pillar,

 

I think what you are feeling now pretty much everyone else here has felt at some time or other

 

I myself am in the exact same position & have been for years - the only way to know for sure is to give it a damn good go

 

You will only get out of a practice what you put in - so if you put nothing in ...

 

You & me & many others are still on the doubtful uphill slope (its a tough slog)

 

 

Good luck.

[rex]

I think your distrust is good and healthy. It's source may be from an inner sacred knowing that throws false guides into sharp relief when compared with the internal image of how things should be. Perhaps sitting in silence with something like the Centering Prayer to communue with your sense of the sacred within may help.

[Sloppy Zhang]

There is nothing wrong with (healthy) skepticism.

 

I am skeptical not only because of a Christian background in which I saw lots of duplicity, but also because when I was younger I got taken for a ride by a karate school (I thought all karate was karate) that wasn't as legit (in terms of lineage or in practicality) as I had assumed it was.

 

Skepticism keeps you grounded to reality, and allows you to sort fact from fiction. There's nothing wrong with having your head in the clouds, reaching for the stars, as long as your feet are on the ground. Otherwise you might find those stars are just painted on to the ceiling of somebody's basement as they are taking you for all the money and time you've got.

 

An irrational skepticism would be closed to knew ideas. A rational, and quite healthy, skepticism would be open to their possibility as long as there is enough supporting evidence. It's not that you automatically disbelieve something when you're a skeptic. But you don't automatically believe it either, or accept it as true unless you've got good reason. You recognize it's a possibility, you just want to see proof.

 

Here's a little video on

that might be interesting.

 

A genuine spiritual path should not be afraid of skepticism, from without or from within. Because a genuine spiritual path will work. If it solely relies on everyone having the self confidence that it would work, and it shatters because one person says, "I don't know if this really works", well then..... maybe you should find a new path.

[joeblast]

[Cat Pillar]

Thanks everyone for your replies! I've gotten a lot out of this thread, so I'm very glad I made the post.

 

Fire Dragon,

 

That's very solid advice about staying at my level. Keeping perspective is something I haven't been doing very well, which the responses have helped me to see. Thanks for your reply, it has been helpful.

 

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Marblehead,

 

I have not read Chuang Tzu, but I will check out the writings. Thanks for the suggestion! I appreciate your perspective, very level headed and resonates well.

 

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pennyofheaven,

 

You bring up a very good point. I used to consider this at one point, but I seem to have forgotten it. It relates a lot to something goldisheavy talked about in his reply. I forget how useful skepticism can - and has been - for me.

 

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goldisheavy,

 

I think you've struck gold with your response, it's had a heavy impact.

 

Being healthy is nothing to sneeze at. The way you say it, it sounds as if being healthy is just a stupid trifle. I think health is a bit better than a trifle.

 

Very perceptive. I have been treating my health like a trifle lately. I've been so focused on pursuing spirituality that I've neglected to take care of myself...seems I've been only paying lip service to the "mind-body-spirit" connection, as I have not been honoring the body portion of that combo lately. Something to add to my practice, then.

 

Don't try to trick yourself. If you don't believe in miracles, then you don't believe in them. It's OK. Trying to force yourself to change your beliefs too quickly can result in mental instability. Changing beliefs is a gradual process that takes time. At each point of this process you have to be honest and always avoid tricking yourself.

 

This is a very interesting response, because of why I am conflicted about my skepticism. All this time, I've been afraid that there isn't anything true and that in order to experience anything I would have to be deceived in some way. Also, the reminder that it's not a sprint and that it does take time is a good one. I have been rather desperate lately.

 

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Moonbar,

 

You're right, the only way to really know for sure is to jump in and try it. It sure is a tough slog. Good luck to all of us climbing that hill!

 

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rex,

 

I'm not familiar with the Centering Prayer, could you tell me more about it?

 

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Sloppy Zhang,

 

A genuine spiritual path should not be afraid of skepticism, from without or from within. Because a genuine spiritual path will work. If it solely relies on everyone having the self confidence that it would work, and it shatters because one person says, "I don't know if this really works", well then..... maybe you should find a new path.

 

That's a great measuring stick right there. Thanks for putting that into perspective for me!

 

 

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joeblast,

 

I judge everything by its consequences in relation to the well-being of everyone involved. I don't often measure up well to this standard, but it's the one I resonate the most with.

 

 

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Thanks again everyone, this thread did exactly what I hoped it would in giving me some new perspectives to view things by.

[hagar]

Your situation is a classical one. I have myself been secretly or overtly been ironic or sceptical towards my own practice for years, probably unconsciously for a decade. When that dawned on me it really put me into a place where I was wasting precious time. More importantly it revealed what rested underneath.

 

I think being "a sceptic" towards whatever is passed as spiritual is probably a sound attitude. What is unsound is focusing on what you conceptualize instead of learning to trust. I do not mean trusting as in believing without reason. Trust means resting in the truth of your experience, past or present.

 

In the core of what most people feel is their urge towards spiritual or contemplative practice is a yearning to be whole. And we cannot be whole without trust. In our core we are all 4 and a half. And being healthy, truthful, trusting, open and non-judgemental are trappings of that wholeness a 4 year old embodies. And also the fruits of right practice.

 

Ironic or sceptical worldviews are just a defense mechanism from the psyche. It means well, but its too conditioned to know your best interest. Instead of focusing on the lack of trust, focus on the pain that is there in the part of you that cannot stop trusting. see what happens. Don't worry. Life is ripe with opportunities to trust.All the best in your practice.

[9th]

Is there a practice that can overpower my worldview, or is it necessary to have faith before I can experience anything beyond the mundane? I'd like to avoid drugs...it would be too easy to dismiss anything I experienced as a simple drug-induced hallucination. Is there such a thing as a practice that will work even if you don't believe in it at first?

 

Overpowering a worldview is very possible but it will have extremely similar effects whether it is drug-induced or not. It is much less likely to erase your skepticism and more likely to send it into a manic frenzy or cause you to block out/distort the experience. For some people, it is a necessary step - although I would say this is rather rare. Belief has nothing to do with it, in fact all beliefs tend to shatter rather quickly in the light of such experience - which will further destabilize your worldview. It is not a common path, and also can be quite difficult. Generally such people have no choice in the matter, they will be surrounded by omens and it is only a matter of time until spirit descends upon them.

 

Purely blind faith will not aid you in a path of internal self-cultivation, but rather will cause all manner of blockages. Go forward with the simple stuff first, relaxing the body, stilling the mind, becoming aware of the current moment, etc. If you only practice in order to seek non-ordinary experiences it can very easily lead to a kind of "spiritual materialism" which is much worse than what you encountered in fundamentalist christianity.

[Cat Pillar]

Hello Hagar,

 

Instead of focusing on the lack of trust, focus on the pain that is there in the part of you that cannot stop trusting. see what happens. Don't worry. Life is ripe with opportunities to trust.All the best in your practice.

 

That's very sound advice. I'll have to give that a go at some point.

 

Hello 9th,

 

Thank you for your insight into overpowering worldviews.

 

If you only practice in order to seek non-ordinary experiences it can very easily lead to a kind of "spiritual materialism" which is much worse than what you encountered in fundamentalist christianity.

 

It's not just non-ordinary experiences I seek...or rather, that's not the end-all be-all of my pursuit. But it IS a milestone I'd like to reach, just so I have some sense of progress or being on the right path.

 

What I'm mostly seeking out of spiritual practice is meaning for my life, because right now I have none. Life is meaningless to me, and I'd like that to change.

[9th]

It's not just non-ordinary experiences I seek...or rather, that's not the end-all be-all of my pursuit. But it IS a milestone I'd like to reach, just so I have some sense of progress or being on the right path.

 

This is a hurdle to be dealt with. At some point you have to be able to practice for its own sake, and also sustain it with no expectations of reaching particular goals. Instead of using a means to reach an end, you eventually become the means which is the end. This is where you become fully committed, as opposed to just dabbling.

 

 

What I'm mostly seeking out of spiritual practice is meaning for my life, because right now I have none. Life is meaningless to me, and I'd like that to change.

 

You may be barking up the wrong tree here. There is a simplicity to the goodness of life which requires no support such as fantastical experiences. They can even become an avoidance of life as it is. If your senses were fully open to the moment, you would find meaning in every breath, every sensation. Its not particularly mystical, just a vibrant and visceral recognition of life.

 

The meaning and purpose of life is growth and evolution. My suggestion is to persevere in your practice without expectation, which indeed can be difficult. If possible, attempt to make this your goal. Don't focus on the mystical stuff until it is an undeniable reality. Then you will be ready to work with it. It will begin with flashes, and strange happenings - but eventually it will be a constant stream. You will need a strong foundation so you don't get washed away.

[NeiChuan]

If the practice is for real, as long as you have good intentions you'll receive good benefits.

 

Also..

 

Just because you're immersed or shown a perspective of something you'd like to know, don't let them destroy that idea for you..

 

Cause it could be priceless, whether or not you discover the view of what they've distorted.

Edited January 13, 2011 by NeiChuan

[rex]

rex,

I'm not familiar with the Centering Prayer, could you tell me more about it?

 

Hi Cat Pillar,

 

It's about being still and resting in faith, hope and love. Information from a rather unorthodox source can be found here:

 

Emptying the self

 

The 'official' website with instructions is here: http://www.contemplativeoutreach.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_practices_centering

 

All the best.

[Gerard]

Hello everyone...

 

Namaste, Cat Pillar.

 

Whichever path you desire to follow do it with your heart. All spiritual paths are valid, but you need to detach yourself from others' ideas and beliefs and find one that resonates with you best according to your personal meditative method. Start by meditating as often as possible (daily if you can) according to your personal needs and then make it a habit. Come back if you need further assistance as surely you'll find sound advice on this forum. But please try not to play with too many systems if you think that the more the better. It really is the "one" the better.

 

Blessings.

 

[宁]

imo, a skeptical mind is a prerequisite for being spiritual, it's a skill of the spirit, critical thinking, also.

[Cat Pillar]

9th,

 

You may be barking up the wrong tree here. There is a simplicity to the goodness of life which requires no support such as fantastical experiences. They can even become an avoidance of life as it is. If your senses were fully open to the moment, you would find meaning in every breath, every sensation. Its not particularly mystical, just a vibrant and visceral recognition of life.

 

The meaning and purpose of life is growth and evolution. My suggestion is to persevere in your practice without expectation, which indeed can be difficult. If possible, attempt to make this your goal. Don't focus on the mystical stuff until it is an undeniable reality. Then you will be ready to work with it. It will begin with flashes, and strange happenings - but eventually it will be a constant stream. You will need a strong foundation so you don't get washed away.

 

I must have heard this in various forms at least a thousand times, but never presented quite like this. My intuition tells me I should listen, so I will. I'll take your advice and do my best to focus on the practice, and let the rest flow naturally.

 

Hello NeiChuan,

 

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the following:

 

Just because you're immersed or shown a perspective of something you'd like to know, don't let them destroy that idea for you..

 

Could you elaborate?

 

rex,

 

Thank you for the link and the information! That's a very interesting website, I like the name. I'll be sure to read the article more thoroughly when I have the chance.

 

Namaste, Gerard...

 

Whichever path you desire to follow do it with your heart. All spiritual paths are valid, but you need to detach yourself from others' ideas and beliefs and find one that resonates with you best according to your personal meditative method. Start by meditating as often as possible (daily if you can) according to your personal needs and then make it a habit. Come back if you need further assistance as surely you'll find sound advice on this forum. But please try not to play with too many systems if you think that the more the better. It really is the "one" the better.

 

I think your advice dovetails nicely with 9th's, and my intuition is prodding me here as well...I've already made a good start on this, for the past week and a half I've been meditating for half an hour a day. But I will keep your advice close.

 

Little1,

 

I can certainly see where it will come in handy. Thank you for your reply.

[9th]

It is wonderful to be in a place where one is able to hear the message of any teaching. Often it is much less the fault of the teaching but more the fault of our own inability to hear its message.

 

In terms of the teaching itself, the message often becomes more valid in the dynamic interplay of life between people. It can be related to in a way that is more relevant to the current situation, and thus illuminated by reality rather than obscured by ideas.

 

I would say you are heading in the right direction, so keep at it. Take encouragement from this - you may not see the signs of mystery yet, but they are there.

[Cat Pillar]

It is wonderful to be in a place where one is able to hear the message of any teaching. Often it is much less the fault of the teaching but more the fault of our own inability to hear its message.

 

In terms of the teaching itself, the message often becomes more valid in the dynamic interplay of life between people. It can be related to in a way that is more relevant to the current situation, and thus illuminated by reality rather than obscured by ideas.

 

I would say you are heading in the right direction, so keep at it. Take encouragement from this - you may not see the signs of mystery yet, but they are there.

 

Thank you, 9th. I will try to stay encouraged. There is certainly something to be said for releasing attachment to results...I'm sure it will take time to fully adjust into a new perspective, but even acceptance of the goal of remaining unattached to results has already resulted in the introduction to a peaceful feeling I hope to explore and cultivate further.

[Otis]

Whatever you chose to do the skeptic in you might be a useful tool?

 

It is always helpful when we can question our own perceptions.

This is awesome advice!

 

I've found that my own skepticism is a habit, and like most habits, it wants to be expressed in some way. So I try to turn it toward my own inner processes, to doubt my thoughts. I get a lot more use out of it, that way.

[9th]

Overpowering a worldview is very possible but it will have extremely similar effects whether it is drug-induced or not. It is much less likely to erase your skepticism and more likely to send it into a manic frenzy or cause you to block out/distort the experience. For some people, it is a necessary step - although I would say this is rather rare. Belief has nothing to do with it, in fact all beliefs tend to shatter rather quickly in the light of such experience - which will further destabilize your worldview. It is not a common path, and also can be quite difficult. Generally such people have no choice in the matter, they will be surrounded by omens and it is only a matter of time until spirit descends upon them.