i come back with aprehention, do forms really matter?

[Starjumper]

Cool, we just gave me a new SIG line.

[mewtwo]

One must first study the forms before they can arrive at the formless, which is also a fundamental principle of Taoism. I didn't make that up, it's from the tai chi classics in the Taoist Cannon.

 

 

 

See it is stuff like this that confuses me. The way i take it is that once you have studied the forms like for 60 ish year then they dont matter. But again i must be wrong.

[三江源]

See it is stuff like this that confuses me. The way i take it is that once you have studied the forms like for 60 ish year then they dont matter. But again i must be wrong.

 

Mewtwo, do you read this board much? There is a lot of discussion here of various forms, their value, and also a lot of discussion of spontaneous qigong and what that is really all about, and its relationship to transmission, also.

 

I reckon if you do a few searches here,and read the various inputs, you will feel somewhat less confused.

 

You know how you have to learn to cook first of all with recipes, then if you have a gift for it, you make up your own recipes.. that process applies to a lot of things.

 

60 years form practice before you improvise is ok if you live to be 120, eh? Otherwise, maybe 60 years not quite needed.

 

I think you are very cool for showing your ideas and asking questions. It might also be cool if you did some background studying.

[New Dawn Fades]

... and its relationship to transmission

Some day I might describe what a real transmission is like

[Sloppy Zhang]

I'm going to relay this to another area of my life:

(no that's not me in the video!)

 

When I first started learning tricks, it was very hard and mechanical. I tried to copy exactly as I saw it. I bounced around from one person to another until I found the person who was doing it in a way that seemed easiest for me to do it, because everyone would do it slightly differently. It took me a long time to learn my first trick (the thumb around).

 

After, I did it a lot. A whole lot. Still do it a lot. Over time, the form became much more smooth. And then it started to change. I started to figure out how it worked best depending on the position of my hand and the type of pen or pencil I was using. Eventually I got to a point where I developed my own style of doing it. But I also grasped the mechanics behind the trick which made it work. I can do a "thumb around" with a pen, a banana, a knife, similar objects (probably a few more, but I haven't tried!)

 

So do forms matter? Um, maybe? (actually, the answer is in the last paragraph!) I mean, you gotta learn somewhere. But after I had reached a significant point in my learning, I realized that the external form of different pen spinners on different videos wasn't really as important. Trying to copy the other person's hand motions EXACTLY isn't going to get you very far.

 

Now to kind of connect it to the teaching thread, people have seen me practice various tricks and asked to learn. I make an effort to teach everyone who asks, and won't give up until they can do the trick! And they all do! Now some of my early "students" took a long time to teach, because I didn't really have a great method of instruction. But we worked through it together, I suggested different exercises to do, some things worked, and some didn't. But they learned it! I got to a point where I knew exactly what things to say in order to get them to grasp the mechanics of it themselves. I also got to a point where I could see how close they were to successfully doing the trick based on how they were messing up. This was from my own experience, but also from teaching people in the past.

 

Learning subsequent tricks was much easier, because I wasn't so concerned about the form. But that doesn't mean that form isn't important- because the mechanics express themselves through the form. Even if the form changes, the mechanics do not. So you learn the form to learn the mechanics to reshape the form.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[mewtwo]

Thak you very much sloppy zhang. you have answered my question in a way i like.

[Otis]

Much respect to all the teachers and those who have been learned great traditional forms from respectable lineage.

 

That said, there is a point to what MewTwo says, that comes from the heart of Taoism. Break down the one into the 10,000, and we lose the Tao. Break down the body into an esoteric system with forms based upon somebody else's body, and to some degree, we alienate ourselves from what is real about ourselves. The way that can be described is not the true way, nor is the form the true way to ourselves.

 

All forms are merely vehicles, to suggest and invite sensation, so that the practitioner can learn about the experience of Qi (and Qi itself is just a metaphor). These forms and metaphors are created by man, based upon his observation of the energetic world. They are the finger, pointing at the moon. In this case, the moon is learning to live as energy (rather than as an ego that moves energy around).

 

If the individual does not learn the internal experience of energy, then accurate replication of a form will not substitute. Whereas the accurate expression of one's authentic internal dance will always be a step forward toward freedom. We cannot be free, if we're not willing to (eventually) shed forms and trust our internal guidance.

 

What is important about the forms is that they are great teaching tools. That is why it is so important to know them so well, before one starts teaching. Of course the forms were themselves once improvised, based upon patterns by energetic intuitives who shared their authentic movements with others. Those forms proved to be very efficacious to a wide group of students, and so they were passed on.

 

Teach an impromptu form, and you're just projecting your own Qi neurosis on someone else. "This is what worked for me" doesn't mean that it will work for anyone else, because everyone's path grows from what's come prior.

 

If, however, you are an intuitive master, then why bother teaching your form? Teach instead how to be an intuitive master, because that's a much more useful skill.

[mewtwo]

Thank you very much otis, you expressed what i felt. You put it in better words then i could have.

 

Thanks a million.

[mYTHmAKER]

I'm going to relay this to another area of my life:

(no that's not me in the video!)

 

When I first started learning tricks, it was very hard and mechanical. I tried to copy exactly as I saw it. I bounced around from one person to another until I found the person who was doing it in a way that seemed easiest for me to do it, because everyone would do it slightly differently. It took me a long time to learn my first trick (the thumb around).

 

After, I did it a lot. A whole lot. Still do it a lot. Over time, the form became much more smooth. And then it started to change. I started to figure out how it worked best depending on the position of my hand and the type of pen or pencil I was using. Eventually I got to a point where I developed my own style of doing it. But I also grasped the mechanics behind the trick which made it work. I can do a "thumb around" with a pen, a banana, a knife, similar objects (probably a few more, but I haven't tried!)

 

So do forms matter? Um, maybe? (actually, the answer is in the last paragraph!) I mean, you gotta learn somewhere. But after I had reached a significant point in my learning, I realized that the external form of different pen spinners on different videos wasn't really as important. Trying to copy the other person's hand motions EXACTLY isn't going to get you very far.

 

Now to kind of connect it to the teaching thread, people have seen me practice various tricks and asked to learn. I make an effort to teach everyone who asks, and won't give up until they can do the trick! And they all do! Now some of my early "students" took a long time to teach, because I didn't really have a great method of instruction. But we worked through it together, I suggested different exercises to do, some things worked, and some didn't. But they learned it! I got to a point where I knew exactly what things to say in order to get them to grasp the mechanics of it themselves. I also got to a point where I could see how close they were to successfully doing the trick based on how they were messing up. This was from my own experience, but also from teaching people in the past.

 

Learning subsequent tricks was much easier, because I wasn't so concerned about the form. But that doesn't mean that form isn't important- because the mechanics express themselves through the form. Even if the form changes, the mechanics do not. So you learn the form to learn the mechanics to reshape the form.

 

Good example Sloppy. It's like we learn to print each letter of the alphabet and then we progress to tying the letters together to make words - then we progress from printing to writing. And some day when we get really good we internalize and write like a doctor and no one can read our writing .

[henro]

Much respect to all the teachers and those who have been learned great traditional forms from respectable lineage.

 

That said, there is a point to what MewTwo says, that comes from the heart of Taoism. Break down the one into the 10,000, and we lose the Tao. Break down the body into an esoteric system with forms based upon somebody else's body, and to some degree, we alienate ourselves from what is real about ourselves. The way that can be described is not the true way, nor is the form the true way to ourselves.

 

All forms are merely vehicles, to suggest and invite sensation, so that the practitioner can learn about the experience of Qi (and Qi itself is just a metaphor). These forms and metaphors are created by man, based upon his observation of the energetic world. They are the finger, pointing at the moon. In this case, the moon is learning to live as energy (rather than as an ego that moves energy around).

 

If the individual does not learn the internal experience of energy, then accurate replication of a form will not substitute. Whereas the accurate expression of one's authentic internal dance will always be a step forward toward freedom. We cannot be free, if we're not willing to (eventually) shed forms and trust our internal guidance.

 

What is important about the forms is that they are great teaching tools. That is why it is so important to know them so well, before one starts teaching. Of course the forms were themselves once improvised, based upon patterns by energetic intuitives who shared their authentic movements with others. Those forms proved to be very efficacious to a wide group of students, and so they were passed on.

 

Teach an impromptu form, and you're just projecting your own Qi neurosis on someone else. "This is what worked for me" doesn't mean that it will work for anyone else, because everyone's path grows from what's come prior.

 

If, however, you are an intuitive master, then why bother teaching your form? Teach instead how to be an intuitive master, because that's a much more useful skill.

 

Yeah, except that many of us are on this path because we recognize that the masters who came before us were able to find something that we're searching for. And we hope that by following in their footsteps we can get there in a reasonable amount of time with as few setbacks as possible. The teachings, the forms, meditation techniques, and mantra are time tested at this point. Will they work for everyone, no, but when something resonates with you it's worth investing the time.

 

I look at mewtwo like a young jazz musician who's stuck in classical music theory class. He's having trouble understanding why he has to study four part chorale writing, Bach, string quartets, etc. But suddenly the Romantic period comes up and he sees the beauty and depth of all that theory, and his own compositions explode. Now there are musicians who can create greatness without all that theory, just as there are spontaneous qigong masters, but the vast majority of us need and want to learn the theories behind the past masters before we can begin to create our own forms or masterpieces. And in this case, not knowing the theory can actually hurt you or someone trying to emulate you.

 

Now I did meet a taoist master in China who had no real formal qigong training. He would stand at the edge of a cliff in the morning, feel the wind and the sun, and begin an amazing spontaneous movement set. Looked like tai chi, bagua, and xing yi. We spent a couple mornings together and he would teach me what he was feeling, where the movement was coming from. He explained the elements and we talked a lot about my own practice. It definitely worked for him, and it did help my tai chi. But I'm not sure you could take anyone off the street and achieve those results without spending time in seclusion, being alone on the mountain, and convening with nature in an intimate way.

Edited January 14, 2011 by robmix

[devoid]

Hi mewtwo,

 

I think you got many good replies to this question from people who have not tried to insult you.

 

I would like to present it in yet another way - the way I like to think about forms:

 

A form will help you get to a particular destination that you may be in search of. The form can only get you to the gates of your destination - once there, it's up to you to explore inside.

Training (day by day) and repeating over and again as well as receiving corrections along the way (sit in more - increased you stride - straighten your spine, etc. which your form teacher will tell you) helps you perfect the form. Once perfected, you have a really good map for reaching your destination. As Sloppy tried to explain, once you're there the real fun begins - you now know the form so well that you can do it without even thinking consciously about it, or even play with it if you so chose.

 

Thus, my advice to you is to practice the forms as if you were training to become the world champion in executing the forms correctly. If you do this you may one day realize the specific wonders of the awesome destinations which the forms can take you to. Don't expect this to come over night.

 

Don't get me wrong: playing with your own forms is great fun although it will guaranteed not be anything resembling a martial art. In other words, the grass in your own backyard is probably not as green and lush as that of the promised land.

 

I wish you happy training!

[juju]

well where i got this idea was that there are a million different forms of taichi or qigong. and they all claim to do the same thing circulate chi. so yeah that is where i got my idea from. But apparently they ciculate different types of chi and such. so my theory must be wronbg.

Dear Mewtwo,

 

first of all: I do not do Qi Gong - but other stuff from within Vajrayana-Buddhism) . So I am not able to speak about Qi Gong specifics, but I do know some things about energy flows.

I have not seen your video because you cancelled it, before I was able to see it. This means I only can answer to what you transmit by your words.

 

You had many answers, many very clear and very good answers. But my impression is that you really just want to pick out the ones which underline your view. You want to teach, you like your forms and you want to hear that it is a great deal if you teach them. It sounds like if you basically want to receive the OK of the Tao-forum. You would like the forum to feed your ego - and are somehow disappointed as it does not fulfill your wish.

 

But now to your question:

Form does matter. Let me put in very very simple example: I you bend your back, you will feel a little depressed, not so secure, seeing the darker colours of life etc. If you straighten your back and open your heart-zone -immediately you will feel more opened, better, more space and light...

This is nothing special - we all do know this. But this is form. A quite gross form, but form.

If a simple change in your body posture, can change so much in your way of perceiving life - imagine what other, more subtle forms can do on this subtle level.

I - after quite some years of daily practice - discover often perceptions which are new to me. As my body opens a little more, I perceive more about what happens. And I do notice how tiny tiny, mostly not really visible changes in my form, change so much in the effect, in the way energy flows. The more I perceive, the more I understand how little I do know.

 

Until you do not really, very deeply know what certain tiny movements and forms do in the body-system - please do not go around changing. For yourself: Whatever you want. But please do not sell it as Qi Gong. Sell it as Mewtwo-Yoga - than at least everybody knows that in the package there is not Qi Gong movements which had been proven by many great masters; but self invented things.

In my very personal opinion right now you should not start to teach on a classical basis. It really is far too easy to damage people instead of helping them.

Maybe you can show some of your friends what you know. Because showing people, receiving questions, having to deal with all things that might arise, will help you a lot to understand, to learn, to perceive.... Teaching (even for a group of friends who do know what you know and what you do not know) helps your own practice to become better. But really: Not yet in courses for everybody.

 

I anyway do not believe that one can learn movements through a book or an DVD. You can get an idea. It can be helpful - but I do not think that this really works.

 

As in your living-place there is no teacher, maybe you can go for an intensive course (two/three weeks or so) - and there experience Qi Gong in a proper way, get your forms corrected etc etc etc

 

By the way: It really would be nice to read what you decided to do

[Otis]

Thank you very much otis, you expressed what i felt.

Sure, Mewtwo, glad it connected to what you were talking about.

 

I am absolutely choosing an intuitive path, myself, and looking to tradition, scriptures, etc., only for inspiration. I do think that is the core truth that both Taoism and Zen are getting at: that all forms have to give way to honest authentic following of our inner guide (what I like to call my 'path'). And for me, at least, it made more sense to start on that pathless path, then to start off with a whole bunch of form, en route to the pathless.

 

Here is the growth of another topic: how do we proceed, if we choose to do away with forms? Those with forms and traditions have the advantage, not only of having references to go to when stuck, but also yardsticks to measure. The formless path has no yardsticks (in fact, it sees them as attachments), so it's impossible to make any objective measure of my achievement (of course, it's impossible for anyone, but the formless path presents the truth of that too clearly to ignore).

 

I think that is not a problem, however, because achievement isn't the name of the game. It's merely: getting better. And that (comparing myself with my history) seems like the only reasonable way to measure growth. On a pathless path, there is no such thing as attainment, as enlightenment, etc., because those are all measurements against a yardstick. There is merely growth, growing lighter, less afraid, more compassionate, more powerful.

 

But how do we teach? Since almost all teaching is based on forms, then we neither have a syllabus, nor (again) a yardstick to see whether we are qualified to teach. All we have are our and other people's opinions. For this reason, I am very hesitant to teach, even though I have been asked occasionally, to share what I know.

 

And, of course, the truth is: I know nothing. I don't have drills or choreography or terms or traditions. I can't even teach someone else MY forms (if I had them), because I have no reason to believe that this form will work for another body, since it was based entirely on the intuition of MY body. The whole argument for a pathless path also demands that we recognize that what works for us may not do anything for another.

 

All I have to offer is an intuition that has been cleaned-up and well-practiced. The only thing I could possibly teach is for someone else to get in touch with their intuition. And I believe that that is probably the single best thing that anyone could teach another person. Forget about learning what I know; learn what will guide you for the rest of your life!

 

That goal: learning to teach another how to access their intuition, their own pathless path, that is utterly beyond my experience. So I'm not in a big hurry to teach, but I still see that role as an admirable one, as long as the teacher doesn't get attached to the role (huge ego traps in that one).

[Starjumper]

[三江源]

 

Have you, or anyone here, ever done this? It holds a strange fascination for me.

[King Kabalabhati]

Have you, or anyone here, ever done this? It holds a strange fascination for me.

 

Enemas, yes. Coffee enemas, not yet

 

Highly recommended. Fast for a day or two, or even more if you can. Take a few enemas a day. Verryy nice feeling.

[三江源]

Enemas, yes. Coffee enemas, not yet

 

Highly recommended. Fast for a day or two, or even more if you can. Take a few enemas a day. Verryy nice feeling.

 

Verryy nice!

 

Did you do it yourself, KK? Would you say it is a good thing to do yourself, or better with a helper, or no, definitely not a helper thanks.

[fiveelementtao]

Verryy nice!

 

Did you do it yourself, KK? Would you say it is a good thing to do yourself, or better with a helper, or no, definitely not a helper thanks.

 

http://www.colema.com/

 

Highly recommend for anyone over the age of 25 living in the western world.

[mYTHmAKER]

Be sure to use decaf LOL

They are a bit too harsh on ones system.

Better off cleaning up your diet

and doing a water fast for a day or two