The Ideology of Exclusivity

[ralis]

After hearing Sarah Palin's rant yesterday about the U.S. being exclusive of other countries, I thought I would add my thoughts more toward religious ideology, which may be one of the primary causes of nationalistic ideology.

 

Why do religious experiences engender authoritarian personalities? Are these personality types a product of social conditioning and as a result are attracted to any experience that may give them exclusive power? Or, according to some recent studies, are their brains hardwired for a more fundamentalist, conservative point of view? This reminds me of the environmental vs. genetic argument that was never resolved. I imagine authoritarian personalities are products of both sides of the equation.

 

The ideology of exclusive power has great appeal among the weak minded.

 

BTW, Palin used the anti-Semitic term "blood libel" in her speech in an attempt to portray herself as a victim in hopes of gaining political favor.

 

More later.

Edited January 13, 2011 by ralis

[Marblehead]

Just as a started response here I will say that this is a very valid topic for discussion but it is also a topic that can bring our emotions to the fore.

 

Please, when posting to this topic try to be as unoffending as possible. There are many members here who are religious and very good-hearted. Let's try to be respectful.

 

 

 

Anyhow, This reminds me of the environmental vs. genetic argument that was never resolved. No, it wasn't and never will if we are looking for either/or because it is a combination of both.

 

Why do religious experiences engender authoritarian personalities?

 

Because it makes you feel better if you believe your are right and you have god on your side.

[strawdog65]

Ralis thanks for posting this...it is a timebomb of a subject.

 

I am a believer that those that espouse god on their side, and then use

it to lash out in a hateful manner are entirely weak minded individuals

that require someone or something to lay the ground rules for what

is acceptable behavior in their lives.

 

It matters not what belief system they have, any behavior that

encourages separation of people (any people) based on ignorance

is detrimental to society and the world in general.

 

My personal opinion of sarah palin is very low.

She unfortunately is a weak minded puppet.

 

I know I have no right to be so judgmental.

I just feel she is a step backwards, towards McCarthyism.

[Ulises]

"St. Augustine announced the triumph of Literalist

fundamentalism, writing:

'Nothing is to be accepted except on the authority of scripture, since greater is that

authority than all powers of the human mind'." Tim Freke

 

A useful way to frame it: Gnostics versus Literalists:

 

The ecstatic experience of the numinous - the Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans - is first. Then some ecstatics try to encapsulate it to be transmitted...with the infortunate results that the words - "the scriptures", Christian, Buddhist, etc. - end up being more important that the vibrant original experience...as far as I know, the First People (Bushmen of the Kalahari, Aborigianl Australians) are the only ones that have avoided to fall in that deadly literalist trap. In fact the Bushmen stress a lot that words are the dominion of the Trickster...they say that the most unseful way for words is for...teasing, creating vibrant absurd humor to "shake" the ego from any rigid understanding....

Edited January 13, 2011 by Ulises

[Mr. T]

hey all,

 

my wife and i have talked about our gross unappreciation at how the christian mind works. i say christian because we are american obviously, so that is our context...everywhere there is christ!! ha! i sound like a preacher...but insert any religion into that, and it becomes somewhat confusing.

 

anyway, i think it is worth questioning how truly "faithful", "devoted", or "religious" most religious people actually are. same goes for taoists...we all have varying degrees of devotion, yet we all claim the same affiliation. who really knows what goes on in palin's head, obama's head, but i know in palin's position it is much safer to claim staunch belief and faith...it is safe for president obama to be a sunday christian...

 

the movie "jesus camp" was unsettling, and really had us going for awhile. the whole time, we just are baffled...

[Ulises]

A war on the Self..

 

http://www.lorinroche.com/page8/page8.html

[Dainin]

Why do religious experiences engender authoritarian personalities?

 

 

There are different types of "religious experiences". In my estimation, persons who have undergone what might be termed "mystical" religious experiences, regardless of their tradition, are neither authoritarian nor exclusivist. Perhaps you can clarify your statement...I would guess that you are talking about fundamentalists??

[Starjumper]

More apple pie and flag

[Otis]

From where I sit, the problem behind fundamentalism is a problem we all share: the need to be special, right, important. It's also the basis behind nationalism and other bigotries: if you're not like me, you must be worth less.

 

I know this yoga teacher who is also an atheist and a hardcore skeptic, and so he's constantly pushing his New Age friends to "question your spiritual bullshit". I agree with his position, but not with his rhetoric: he often refers to his own view as "grown-up spirituality". To me, the problem is when I say "anyone who disagrees with me is wrong", no matter what it is I believe in.

 

That problem is most obvious with fundamentalists, but I think it's worthwhile for us all to be on the look-out for our own need to be special.

[ralis]

Sometimes, I refer to the primate need to establish hierarchies and that can bother some. However, the evidence is increasingly clear that human behavior is not unlike chimp behavior as a social group. I say that in regards to chimps being a related species. I imagine this is a survival mechanism. This behavior is carried out in conjunction with humans that have evolved higher brain functions. Exclusivity and authoritarian personalities are what comes to mind.

 

Many times, religious experiences seem to exasperate the primitive social behaviors. Why?

 

I am a little tired now and will write more later. I am not certain the above is very coherent.

[ralis]

Thom Hartmann's analysis of Sarah Palin's rant. This is excellent!

 

 

 

[Otis]

Sometimes, I refer to the primate need to establish hierarchies

One of my favorite satori moments was being guided through my own belief in human hierarchy, having it revealed to me that all that hierarchy is just myth, just stories that we tell ourselves and others. And realizing that as long as I bought into the myth, as long as I believed any other human being less valuable than me, then I was imprisoned by that myth. I could never be on the top of any hierarchy, so I would always be lacking, could never fully accept myself.

[Owledge]

Thom Hartmann's analysis of Sarah Palin's rant. This is excellent!

I'd not call it excellent. It sounds like coming from an opposing political view, not like objective analysis. Some points are a bit off-target, some comments have other questionable implications. I don't like the mockery undertone. It comes from and boosts the ego and thus clouds objective perception.

[ralis]

I'd not call it excellent. It sounds like coming from an opposing political view, not like objective analysis. Some points are a bit off-target, some comments have other questionable implications. I don't like the mockery undertone. It comes from and boosts the ego and thus clouds objective perception.

 

If you lived in the U.S. you would understand the vitriol and hate she has created. She is a far right wing hate monger!

Edited January 29, 2011 by ralis

[Owledge]

My comment was not a matter of understanding or not, just stating my observations.

[henro]

If you lived in the U.S. you would understand the vitriol and hate she has created. She is a far right wing hate monger!

 

 

No, the hate began long before Sarah Palin. . . It wasn't long ago that someone shot and killed JFK, then his brother, and MLK. Then less than 20 years later took a shot at Reagan. Hell, some lunatic even killed John Lennon. . . Fast forward to the protesters throwing crap at Bush #2's car on the way to his inauguration, and the huge amount of hate literature published, totally unprecedented btw, during Bush's tenure.

 

I can't stand either side, bunch of hypocrites.

 

No Sarah Palin didn't create the hate, she's just the Paris Hilton for the right wing.

[sifusufi]

I personally recognize when I am in MCO or Kundalini city it is like being on the 70 mph freeway and most of

the world appears to be cruising at 25 mph.

 

The reality is I believe I am the only one who "gets it", and end up off on a superiority trip to nowhere.

 

I jumped on the 'True Blood" bandwagon with the rest of my family last season.

 

If you saw it I need not explain.

 

Come to think of it vampires, taoists, and JC (not John Chang) all have that eternal life thing goin' on eh?

 

Ralis, thanks as always for the keen insight

Edited January 29, 2011 by sifusufi

[Mark Foote]

 

Many times, religious experiences seem to exacerbate the primitive social behaviors. Why?

 

 

I'm thinking there is one group of primates that doesn't show the aggressive behaviour of chimps, and especially male chimps- and if I remember rightly, that group of primates makes love all the time, they're polyamorous. Only a little off-topic.

 

Words and images can remind us of subtle aspects of the way our minds and bodies coordinate in response to things. If the words and images become a way of holding onto a particular coordination, and we ignore what we feel, then we feel threatened by whatever doesn't agree with us. It's impossible to argue words and images with someone who ignores feelings, they are physically dependent on their beliefs, as it were; it's only possible to inspire feeling, as we ourselves experience feeling in our lives.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Mark Foote

[Vajrahridaya]

Liberation is exclusive to the liberated, arising dependent upon a particular insight that engenders omniscience of the direct nature of things, meaning the mystery of reality is revealed, instead of merely surrendered to in an absorbed by mystery sense which is what most traditions do. The truly liberated, have cut through the mystery.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Apech]

Politicians use hate and difference as a way to control people.

 

Some mystics are overwhelmed by their subjective experiences which makes them think they are some kind exclusive link to God - a prophet or whatever - people like this are to be avoided IMO.

[Vajrahridaya]

Politicians use hate and difference as a way to control people.

 

Some mystics are overwhelmed by their subjective experiences which makes them think they are some kind exclusive link to God - a prophet or whatever - people like this are to be avoided IMO.

 

This is true, which is why it's important to realize dependent origination/emptiness, thus cutting through this type of pride, like Muhammad had for example. He had a vision, got all psyched up, then went out and started murderous war on everyone that didn't believe that his vision was the one and only truth. If one realizes dependent origination, one realizes that there is not one and only truth that is even worth killing for. There are infinite truths and their emptiness, which is not even inherent as if things and ideas arise dependently, their emptiness is also dependent. One could say that this is saying the same thing, but... it's not if one has experiential understanding of the words.

 

Let's just talk it out instead. It's much more enlightening than sword and blood.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Mark Foote]

Some mystics are overwhelmed by their subjective experiences which makes them think they are some kind exclusive link to God - a prophet or whatever - people like this are to be avoided IMO.

 

"A legend in his or her own mind", as opposed to "a legend in his or her own time"; that's why I think it's safer to assume that we are talking to ourselves when we post (and pretty much all the time), and shoot to write or say something we didn't know before. Ah- gah-gah gah! Or something we barely know, feel and have to search for the exact words to express. If nothing else, it's a great exercise.

 

Speaking of exact words to express, what is:

 

 

thanks, ya old Maa'-kheru!

[Apech]

 

 

Speaking of exact words to express, what is:

 

 

thanks, ya old Maa'-kheru!

 

It's : htp di nsw dhwty = offerings given by the king to Thoth (god of wisdom).

[Otis]

Liberation is exclusive to the liberated, arising dependent upon a particular insight that engenders omniscience of the direct nature of things, meaning the mystery of reality is revealed, instead of merely surrendered to in an absorbed by mystery sense which is what most traditions do. The truly liberated, have cut through the mystery.

Isn't this an "ideology of exclusivity"?

[joeblast]

If you lived in the U.S. you would understand the vitriol and hate she has created. She is a far right wing hate monger!

Do you spend more time here or at the huffington post? I find it pretty laughable to attribute "vitriol" to her, unless its regarding spendthrift policies or stuff like appeasing adversaries all carrot and no stick - if anything its reactionary, most certainly not causative. And even at that - look up the word vitriol in the dictionary - what's so "highly caustic" that she's said? Or is vitriol simply a cool sounding word to use that's "generally in the direction of what you want to say" even though its not really accurate in the least?

 

Its pretty hypocritical to assault her on the usage of "blood libel" yet overlook everything else that's come from the other side of the political spectrum - even if you want to limit it to only stuff aimed at her!

 

Were you joined in the chorus blaming her for Loughner before anybody opened up the book of real circumstance on the matter?