"Right Bucks" by Ken Wilbur

[ShaktiMama]

Offered for your consideration.

Right Bucks.pdf

[Vajrahridaya]

Offered for your consideration.

 

I didn't read every word, cuz I just don't have time right now.

 

But, at first I was like..."Oh, that's dualistic... " but then I read on and realized, "Oh.. that's his point... ok yes, my thoughts too."

 

Money is just energy, and we get the value of what it's spent on.

 

Money is basically like Karma chips, or karma notes.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[3L3VAT3]

Very well put.

Good read.

 

i'm sure some haters are going to come up with a retort though...

[pilot]

"under the "kill it" part of testosterone" ... "the ecofeminists love horticultural societies: their idea of heaven; we love dem old digging sticks" ... "not nearly as much fun as, gosh, big game hunting, which men had largely to give up" ... "men, of course, continued to wander off, male bond, and hunt, following the major drive of testosterone: fuck it (sic) or kill it"

 

suffice to say I could not read any further, and so cannot contribute on the topic of dharma and money.

[3L3VAT3]

"under the "kill it" part of testosterone" ... "the ecofeminists love horticultural societies: their idea of heaven; we love dem old digging sticks" ... "not nearly as much fun as, gosh, big game hunting, which men had largely to give up" ... "men, of course, continued to wander off, male bond, and hunt, following the major drive of testosterone: fuck it (sic) or kill it"

 

suffice to say I could not read any further, and so cannot contribute on the topic of dharma and money.

 

why exactly?

[devoid]

Offered for your consideration.

 

Hi ShaktiMama,

 

I am not sure I understand this post and was wondering if you could help cast some light on it? I must admit upfront that I never read any other of the author's works - perhaps that is the source of my confusion.

 

I've been through the text twice now.

I see an 18 page rambling which attempts unapologetically (although I am not convinced) to justify the author having money (and spending it) given the authors acceptance and understanding of the concept of Dharma through time.

 

I would be curious to understand what you got out of it or was hoping that your fellow taobums should get out of it?

[9th]

Did you know that Ken Wilbur also heavily endorsed Bubba Free John?

[Vajrahridaya]

Did you know that Ken Wilbur also heavily endorsed Bubba Free John?

 

Yes, and I think he apologizes for that in the past somewhere? He's definitely not a Buddha in my non-Buddhahood opinion, but I think he's smart enough to read and get something from.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I would be curious to understand what you got out of it or was hoping that your fellow taobums should get out of it?

 

I didn't read every word and mostly just sped through it, but I got that money is energy and it's value is relative to ones understanding of everything. That it can be used for good. In the sense of dharma teaching, supporting it's possibility of dissemination through this energy is a blessed event that is beneficial for all involved and this is relative too.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[RiverSnake]

I have not read the article but i assume based on the posts that it explains the usage and value of money in spirituality.

 

-It's my opinion that the intentions behind an action are just as important, sometimes more so than the actions themselves.

 

-Money and power can be used for good, evil or just to by a sandwich ...it depends on the intentions behind it.

[9th]

Yes, and I think he apologizes for that in the past somewhere?

 

Yeh, eventually he came to a new understanding of it.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yeh, eventually he came to a new understanding of it.

 

It's funny, someone as stupid as I was able to see right through Bubbas first book. Once anyone starts saying that, "I am the 1 and super teacher of this time." I run in the other direction and his first book was so filled with ego, and not that enlightened kind of ego either.

 

I think he had some experiences that arose dependent upon his personal pride, which totally confused him.

 

I think Ken suffers from the same ailment, just not to such an extreme degree as Bubba.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hm, the writing made sense, and I understand his point.... I just don't know that I agree with it.

 

I also don't feel like money is some kind of "karma chips". That someone can change a boatload of money and say, "well if you've got good karma, or are meant to learn this in this life, then you'll get the money together." That money is somehow tied to your quality.

 

I recall reading somewhere, along when I was researching some kung fu lineage, that it was actually in bad taste to make a living off teaching martial arts. It wasn't necessarily an aversion to the worldly sphere (as this writing may suggest), but it was in an effort to keep the teachings true to themselves. To know that when a teacher taught, the teacher was teaching because he wanted to teach. And that when the student learned, it was because the student had shown the capability and dedication to impress a teacher enough to take him in.

 

But I'm sure if you really wanted to you could find a way to counter argue it with something in this paper.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[9th]

I think Ken suffers from the same ailment, just not to such an extreme degree as Bubba.

 

Its a very prevalent issue with the emerging wisdom community of the modern western world. You could consider this grey area of exploitation as some sort of "growing pains" but that probably doesn't make it less painful for the people going through it. There are many shades to it, and it runs very subtle. It could appear harmless to everyone and may just end up doing nothing more than wasting a bit of time. Or it could cause all manner of suffering in peoples lives. The evidence for this is all over the place, but only if you are willing to investigate.

 

The problem that people in the western world were less prepared to deal with was the demonstration of strange and non-ordinary experiences, which people in the east, (particularly india and tibet and china so forth) are much more accustomed to as just another part of life. They tend to have a cultural understanding that such ability does not necessarily indicate anything other than power.

 

While it is true there is a tradition of siddhas and mahasiddhas who overpower the phenomenal world in an enlightened way, that does not mean that siddhis for their own sake are relevant to enlightenment. In fact, many traditions warn against them because they are so enticing, because they work so well - it becomes a trap for certain people such as Bubba Free John and others of his ilk. The modern western world is now learning this lesson the hard way, but for some people its the only way possible. The question is how long will it take, and how much pain will all these people have to endure?

[9th]

[Vajrahridaya]

Hm, the writing made sense, and I understand his point.... I just don't know that I agree with it.

 

I also don't feel like money is some kind of "karma chips". That someone can change a boatload of money and say, "well if you've got good karma, or are meant to learn this in this life, then you'll get the money together." That money is somehow tied to your quality.

 

You misunderstood what I meant by karma chip. Karma means action, and through your action in employment or employer, this energy manifests as money. It's more relative than the black and white considering you had of my words.

 

Of course having or not having money is no reflection of a persons inner quality. Wandering mendicants can have far more character, wisdom and realization than a wealthy merchant.

 

Karma also is neither good nor bad, it's just action and it's fruit.

 

But in this sense, what better offering of ones energy? Supporting dharma.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

The problem that people in the western world were less prepared to deal with was the demonstration of strange and non-ordinary experiences, which people in the east, (particularly india and tibet and china so forth) are much more accustomed to as just another part of life. They tend to have a cultural understanding that such ability does not necessarily indicate anything other than power.

 

Yup

 

While it is true there is a tradition of siddhas and mahasiddhas who overpower the phenomenal world in an enlightened way, that does not mean that siddhis for their own sake are relevant to enlightenment. In fact, many traditions warn against them because they are so enticing, because they work so well - it becomes a trap for certain people such as Bubba Free John and others of his ilk. The modern western world is now learning this lesson the hard way, but for some people its the only way possible. The question is how long will it take, and how much pain will all these people have to endure?

 

I'm not clear on where we are going as an increasingly inter-connected human society.

[Sloppy Zhang]

You misunderstood what I meant by karma chip. Karma means action, and through your action in employment or employer, this energy manifests as money. It's more relative than the black and white considering you had of my words.

 

Of course having or not having money is no reflection of a persons inner quality. Wandering mendicants can have far more character, wisdom and realization than a wealthy merchant.

 

Karma also is neither good nor bad, it's just action and it's fruit.

 

But in this sense, what better offering of ones energy? Supporting dharma.

 

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. Your comment was more of a jumping off point. I've seen various people in the marketing regions of the spiritual community that say things that are far more extreme and black and white than you had put in your post. Sorry if it came across that I was targeting you specifically

 

But even if your working and actions in employment manifest as money, there is still no guarantee that there is even going to be enough money to find its way to dharma. If you work in a low paying job, and have to pay rent, then there's money for food, taxes, maybe even a family.... even if you just consider all the basic necessities, it can take a tremendous amount of effort just to keep your life situation balanced. A sudden illness or injury, inability to work, can put you or your family out on the street in some cases!

 

For people living in that situation, money towards any kind of teaching is pretty much impossible. So I don't think it's really fair to say that someone should just put their energy towards dharma, because even if someone wanted to, they realistically cannot.

 

Of course, one could say life's not fair.... but that doesn't really help get people the dharma, now does it?

 

While I'm sure there are plenty of people who, if they restructured their life and cut out some useless excesses, could quite easily access the dharma, I'm sure there are plenty more who, quite literally, have nothing to spare.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Vajrahridaya]

[9th]

Yup

 

I'm not clear on where we are going as an increasingly inter-connected human society.

 

The first step would be to get clear on where you are going in your own life, then get clear on where you are going as part of that inter-connection. Some people have spoken of "the universal", which can mean an underlying common ground. Constant contact with this common ground would eventually lead to a "universal" understanding. Then perhaps to a vastness from which "the universal" has arisen.

 

"Perhaps" is a word I like to use very often.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

But even if your working and actions in employment manifest as money, there is still no guarantee that there is even going to be enough money to find its way to dharma. If you work in a low paying job, and have to pay rent, then there's money for food, taxes, maybe even a family.... even if you just consider all the basic necessities, it can take a tremendous amount of effort just to keep your life situation balanced. A sudden illness or injury, inability to work, can put you or your family out on the street in some cases!

 

This is true, which is why all the Tibetan Masters that I know of operate on a sliding scale, or even allow one to offer some physical labor in place of money in order to support the retreat in some way. Their motto is, "no one is turned away." That's why when prices come up for retreats, they don't say, "the price is", they say, "suggested donation is."

 

 

 

For people living in that situation, money towards any kind of teaching is pretty much impossible. So I don't think it's really fair to say that someone should just put their energy towards dharma, because even if someone wanted to, they realistically cannot.

 

I understand, but that's why I said the above, if energy cannot be offered as money, it's offered as work directly associated with the retreat or teaching in order to support the entire affair.

 

Of course, one could say life's not fair.... but that doesn't really help get people the dharma, now does it?

 

No, it doesn't.

 

While I'm sure there are plenty of people who, if they restructured their life and cut out some useless excesses, could quite easily access the dharma, I'm sure there are plenty more who, quite literally, have nothing to spare.

 

Yes, but at the same time, this is ones karma. It's said that one should first get ones home life in order, then focus on dharma, otherwise... it's kind of like throwing teachings away when the person getting them does not have any sturdy support in order to build the teachings from. Again, this is not a black and white thing and it's as relative and unique as individual situations.

 

I get your point though.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

The first step would be to get clear on where you are going in your own life, then get clear on where you are going as part of that inter-connection. Some people have spoken of "the universal", which can mean an underlying common ground. Constant contact with this common ground would eventually lead to a "universal" understanding. Then perhaps to a vastness from which "the universal" has arisen.

 

"Perhaps" is a word I like to use very often.

 

For a Buddhist, the universal ground is compassion, or bodhichitta reflective of understanding inter-connectivity.

 

I've had dreams of a flash of bright light, and some sort of change of dimension where all the "good" people come together on Earth... I don't have any nuanced information to give out about this.

 

But, people have so many different ideas of how this common ground manifests. So many think it's just, "reading thought." Like, if you read the thoughts of our group, your in, or something. I find that very egotistical though and just a group psychosis for the most part as ignoring thought is shunned by these groups of people. Reading thought on a constant basis is pretty annoying.

 

So, I like to think of my universal ground as bodhichitta, and that's it. This both transcends thought and embraces it, but doesn't get caught up in it, but rather utilizes it for benefit that is not merely self centered gratification of mutual acceptance, like joining a gang.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[9th]

For a Buddhist, the universal ground is compassion, or bodhichitta reflective of understanding inter-connectivity.

 

I've had dreams of a flash of bright light, and some sort of change of dimension where all the "good" people come together on Earth... I don't have any nuanced information to give out about this.

 

But, people have so many different ideas of how this common ground manifests. So many think it's just, "reading thought." Like, if you read the thoughts of our group, your in, or something. I find that very egotistical though and just a group psychosis for the most part as ignoring thought is shunned by these groups of people. Reading thought on a constant basis is pretty annoying.

 

So, I like to think of my universal ground as bodhichitta, and that's it, this both transcends thought and embraces it, but doesn't get caught up in it, but rather utilizes it for benefit that is not merely self centered gratification of mutual acceptance, like joining a gang.

 

 

You would also benefit from this.

[Vajrahridaya]

You would also benefit from this.

 

Yes sure, suggestions and assertions are not awareness, but they can reflect awareness.

[9th]