[TTC Study] Chapter 18 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 18

 

John Wu

 

When the Great Tao was abandoned,

There appeared humanity and justice.

When intelligence and wit arose,

There appeared great hypocrites.

When the six relations lost their harmony,

There appeared filial piety and paternal kindness.

When darkness and disorder began to reign in a kingdom,

There appeared the loyal ministers.

 

 

English/Feng

 

When the great Tao is forgotten,

Kindness and morality arise.

When wisdom and intelligence are born,

The great pretense begins.

When there is no peace within the family,

Filial piety and devotion arise.

When the country is confused and in chaos,

Loyal ministers appear.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

Therefore, when the Great Way is rejected,

It is then that we have the virtues of humanity and righteousness;

When knowledge and wisdom appear,

It is then that there is great hypocrisy;

When the six relations are not in harmony,

It is then that we have filial piety and compassion;

And when the country is in chaos and confusion,

It is then that there are virtuous officials.

 

 

 

I love the last line. It says so much to me.

 

 

Comments?

[Mr. T]

hey folks,

 

this is sort of a sad chapter to me...if reminds me of the bad things in life.

 

my question is why is the reference made to six relations? i remember hearing that it might have had something to do with family connections in the chinese language, and that is used as a metaphor for all your relationships in life...anyone have any more info on the six relations? it's odd that usually the numbers given are 5's or 8's or 10,000

 

that is my poor attempt at a tao joke...

Edited January 17, 2011 by Mr. T

[Marblehead]

hey folks,

 

this is sort of a sad chapter to me...if reminds me of the bad things in life.

 

my question is why is the reference made to six relations? i remember hearing that it might have had something to do with family connections in the chinese language, and that is used as a metaphor for all your relationships in life...anyone have any more info on the six relations? it's odd that usually the numbers given are 5's or 8's or 10,000

 

that is my poor attempt at a tao joke...

 

Hi Mr. T,

 

From Derek Lin's translation:

 

The six family relationships are Parent, child, older sibling, younger sibling, husband, and wife. When these six are in a state of harmony the family enjoys a strong bond that requires no effort to maintain. When they degenerate into a state of disharmony we must work on filial piety, obedience, and aggection to keep the family together.

[Mr. T]

yes, that interpretation makes sense...i really wish that i somehow intuitively understood chinese culture, language, etc...it would make this whole tao thing much more wholesome and understandable. (well, maybe it would make some of the colloquialisms in the ttc easier to understand.)

 

also, filial piety is perhaps the biggest improvement i can see that i need. that's also why i get sad when i read this chapter...it reminds me of how much i take my family for granted and it brings back all the bad things i have done to them throughout life. it's a good thing they love me unconditionally!

[Marblehead]

Hi Mr. T,

 

Yes, the cultural differences between the East and the West is an obstacle that prevents quicker understanding of the TTC. But they can be overcome if we keep an open mind. For me, reading Chuang Tzu was a great help.

 

I know what you are talking about in your second paragraph.

 

Luckily I was able to re-establish bonds but it did take a long time.

[Easy]

Hey,

I have never been very impressed with this chapter of the TTC. I sense an undertone of sophistry in it...not the sage's best moment.

 

But I think the different translations are interesting in that everyone I have read (within recent memory) cast the first line in the present tense except Wu who puts it into the past tense. This has two effects, I think; one is to again conjure up that antique Taoist nostalgia for an actual paradise lost. The second is to shade the rest of the chapter with a fatalistic review of the fallen human condition rather than give the warnings (as the other translations do) of the dire consequences of deviating from The Path--Be afraid...be very, very afra... Oh No! Here come the ministers now!

[Mr. T]

"Be afraid...be very, very afra... Oh No! Here come the ministers now!"

 

hopefully they are loyal ministers....

[DrumR]

"Be afraid...be very, very afra... Oh No! Here come the ministers now!"

 

hopefully they are loyal ministers....

The "ministers," of that time, may have worn ceremonial robes but today they are garbed in two-piece suits and the appropriate title they hold is "Bureaucrat."

 

This is a quick look at Chapt. 18 and not quite as thorough as I am want to do. Yet before looking at #18 one may find that the lesson of #17 may shed more light upon the subject as well.

 

When an alternative (Derek Lin) to the Feng/Hendricks/Wu translation trilogy was included, and the clarification of the "6 Relations" provided, I believe that great insight may have been offered. Thus I add an additional translation, and some observations of my own, to help "muddy the waters."

 

 

On the decline of the great Tao,

The doctrines of "love" and "Justice" arose.

When Knowledge and cleverness appeared,

Great hypocrisy followed in its wake.

 

When the six relations no linger lived at peace,

There was (praise of) "kind Parents" and "filial sons."

When a country fell into chaos and misrule,

There (was praise of) "loyal ministers."<1>

 

I was struck by the Confucian tone of the last portion and lo, to my surprise

Mr Yutang in his notes states:

Essential Confucian doctrines, usually translated (badly) as "benevolence" and "righteousness."<1>

 

Yet another aspect that, over the years, I have found useful is to examine the chapter(s) from the bottom up, i.e.:

 

There (was praise of) "loyal ministers."

When a country fell into chaos and misrule,

 

There was (praise of) "kind Parents" and "filial sons."

When the six relations no linger lived at peace,

 

Great hypocrisy followed in its wake.

When Knowledge and cleverness appeared,

 

The doctrines of "love" and "Justice" arose.

On the decline of the great Tao,

 

Comments? Please!

 

References:

1) Laotse, The Book of Tao - Modern Library - Lin Yutang

[Marblehead]

Hi DrumR,

 

Yeah. I like your transposition of the lines.

 

And yes, I like Yutang's translation a lot. It is just that this series started out using the three translations so that is the form I continue to use when I present a new chapter.

 

I think that this chapter is also speaking to the differences between the Way of Tao (Natural) and the way of man (Artificial). Afterall, when we do not allow the flow to be natural we must replace that way with artificial ways.

[Mr. T]

hey all, happy friday to you!

 

warning: about to hijack thread

 

drumr, that is only the second time i have heard of someone doing that (reversing the lines and reading backwards, that is), and it's kind of weird to me. it seems like hearing a recording in reverse and then pulling out words you think you might hear. where did you hear of this, and do you feel it has been a beneficial practice for you?

 

i am not saying that you should not do it or that i think it's wrong, i just don't understand it and would like to get your opinion...and anyone else's, of course! i guess i can see how the lines do read differently, but i am confused reading most chapters forward, the last thing i need to do is try it in reverse!!

 

should we continue this in another thread? i think i will because i am genuinely interested in different takes on this....

[The Observer]

So when unspoken virtues need to be taught and instilled it's a sign that things have gotten rotten?

[Marblehead]

 

i am not saying that you should not do it or that i think it's wrong, i just don't understand it and would like to get your opinion...and anyone else's, of course! i guess i can see how the lines do read differently, but i am confused reading most chapters forward, the last thing i need to do is try it in reverse!!

 

should we continue this in another thread? i think i will because i am genuinely interested in different takes on this....

 

I wanted to respond to this here because I think it is a valid question.

 

By way of example:

 

When we do a math problem and we attain a solution it is possible to check our solution by working the equation backward. If the two side of the 'equal' sign balance then the answer is correct. In other words, if A = B then B (must) = A.

 

We get the same thing when considering a statement for logic and correctness. If it reads correctly in both direction then it is most likely valid.

[dawei]

Verse 18

大 道 廢 有 仁 義

慧 智 出 有 大 偽

六 親 不 和 有 孝 慈

國 家 昏 亂 有 忠 臣

 

 

When great Dao is abandoned, kindness and justice arise.

When learning and wisdom appear, great pretense follows.

When families are out of balance, filial piety ascends.

When the country is in turmoil, loyal servants prevail.

 

 

Line 3:

六 親 - Six relations/relationships

孝 慈 - Filial piety

 

An alternate, instead of ascend, is what we are left with:

 

When Dao falls from use we are left with kindness and justice.

When learning and wisdom appear we have pretense.

When relationships are out of balance there is still filial piety.

When the country is in turmoil we are left with loyal ministers.

Edited February 26, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Okay. That is presented in a more positive atmosphere. Myself, being an optimist, I would prefer that translation.

 

The first line is still a problem for me because of the usage of the translation to the word Tao (Dao). The section would hold much more validity, I think, if the Chinese character were translated to "Way" instead of "Tao".

 

That would make your first line read:

 

When the Way falls from use we are left with kindness and justice.

 

(Naturalness has been replaced with [practiced] kindness and justice.)

[dawei]

Okay. That is presented in a more positive atmosphere. Myself, being an optimist, I would prefer that translation.

 

The first line is still a problem for me because of the usage of the translation to the word Tao (Dao). The section would hold much more validity, I think, if the Chinese character were translated to "Way" instead of "Tao".

 

That would make your first line read:

 

When the Way falls from use we are left with kindness and justice.

 

(Naturalness has been replaced with [practiced] kindness and justice.)

Yes, I agree... and also with your last paren statement. There are a few chapters where "Way" reads way better

 

Hinton sticks to "Way" throughout all his translations:

When the great Way is abandoned

We're faced with Humanity and Duty

When clever wisdom appears

We're faced with duplicity

When familial harmony ends

We're faced with obedience and kindness

And when chaos engulfs the nation

We're faced with trustworthy ministers -- Tr. Hinton

[aridus]

So when unspoken virtues need to be taught and instilled it's a sign that things have gotten rotten?

 

I read it as an effect of The Way being The Way of all things. Nothing else would be necessary. I don't see it as rottenness exactly, I only see it as the fact that if we misalign anything, other things come into play - it could be seen as "needing a bit of help". I think many are simply lost and would not mean harm, if they knew any better.

[Marblehead]

Hinton sticks to "Way" throughout all his translations:

 

I would have a problem with that because there are time when the word should be a noun: Tao.

 

When the great Way is abandoned

We're faced with Humanity and Duty

When clever wisdom appears

We're faced with duplicity

When familial harmony ends

We're faced with obedience and kindness

And when chaos engulfs the nation

We're faced with trustworthy ministers -- Tr. Hinton

 

A little clunky, in my opinion, but still valid at presenting the concept.

[Marblehead]

I read it as an effect of The Way being The Way of all things...

 

Nice response Aridus.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 18

 

　世上有没有至极之乐呢？有没有可以全生保身的方法呢？现在应当有何作为？以何为依据？回避什么？安处在哪里？趋就什么？舍弃什么？喜欢什么？厌恶什么？

 

天下所最崇尚的，就是富有、尊贵、长寿、善名；所最喜欢的，就是身体安逸、丰足的美味佳肴、漂亮的服饰、悦目的色彩、悦耳的音乐；所卑贱的，就是贫穷、地位低下、夭折和坏名声；所苦恼的，就是身得安逸，口不得丰厚的美味，身上穿不到美丽的服饰，眼睛看不到悦目的色彩，耳朵听不到悦耳的音乐。如果不能得到这些，就大为忧惧，这样的养身方法岂不是大愚蠢了吗！

 

富有的人，劳苦身体加速做事，多积财富而不能尽数享用，这是求养身于外呀！高贵的人，夜以继日，思虑分辩为善去恶，这对养身不是太疏远了么！人一生下来，就与忧愁同在。长寿的人衰老得胡里胡涂，长处忧愁而不死去，何等苦恼啊！这与养生健体更离得远了！

 

殉名之上为天下人称善，却不能使自身生命得以保存。我不知道这种善确实是善呢，还是不善呢？如果认为是善，又不能使自身存活；认为是不善，又使他人存活，所以说：“以忠诚之心去匡正谏止而不被听从，就退却而不强争。”以前伍子胥因为强谏，而身遭残害；然而不去谏争，他也不会成名。

 

这佯说来到底还有没有善呢？现今世俗之所为与所乐，我也不知那果真是乐呢，还是不乐呢？我观察世俗之所乐，所有人都争着奔向所乐，坚定果敢的样子好象没法停止似的，而他们都以为乐，我认为没有什么可乐，也没有什么不可乐。果真有乐没有呢？

 

我认为无为确实是可乐的，而世俗之人又认为是大苦。所以说：“最高的快乐就是无忧无乐，最完美的赞誉就是不赞誉。”天下之是非确实是不定的。虽然这样，无力却可以定是非。最高之快乐与存活自身，唯有无为差不多可以作到。请尝试讲一下：天由于无为而能清虚，地由于无为而得宁静，故而天地两者无为相合，万物都化生出来。恍惚暗昧，不知从何所出！暗昧恍惚，又没有一定形象！万物繁杂众多，都从无为生殖出来。所以说：天地是无为，又是无不为的。人谁能懂得无为之道而效法啊！

Edited June 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Edited March 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Ah! The search for happiness.

 

First, of course, is to define what happiness is and come to an agreement with that defination. Until we define we know not what it is we are searching for.

[ChiDragon]

Ah! The search for happiness.

 

First, of course, is to define what happiness is and come to an agreement with that defination. Until we define we know not what it is we are searching for.

 

Ahhhh....

You'd jumped the gun. The answer is in the last two paragraphs...

[Marblehead]

Ahhhh....

You'd jumped the gun. The answer is in the last two paragraphs...

I have been known to do that in the past so this certainly is not the first time I have jumped the gun. Hehehe.

 

But really, there still is no answer yet, is there?

[ChiDragon]

Is there an ultimate happiness...???

Is there a complete method to kept one alive...???

Now, what should we do...???

What are we depending on...???

What are we evading...???

Where do we settle at...???

What are we pursuing...???

What are we discarding...???

What do we like....???

What do we disdain...???

 

The most adorable things are: rich, prestige, longevity, and fame. Hence, the most things we like would be a healthy body, good foods, nice clothes, attractive colors, and nice musics.

 

The most despicable things are: poverty, low-level, death and a bad reputation.

 

The most torments are when one is comfortable but without the gourmet foods, not wearing beautiful clothes, the eyes cannot see the beautiful colors, and the ears cannot hear the melodious music. If one cannot have all things, then one is perturbed. However, having this kind of method for cultivation, isn't that a little ignorant...???

 

Those who are rich labored their bodies to accelerate the accomplishment of their affairs. Thus they gain lots of wealth but cannot use them all. That was placing oneself outside of the self-cultivation. The noble ones are mentally too busy distinguishing the good from the bad daily; wasn't that too remote from self-cultivation...???

 

People are born with troubles, those who lived long become muddled and living in worries but not passed away; how sad? Hence, that was definitely too remote from self-cultivation and preserving one's life.

 

Giving up the fame was considered to be good by the people but it cannot sustain life. I don't know this kind of goodness is really good or not? If I reckon it was good, then it cannot keep me alive. If I reckon it was not good, then it can keep others alive. Therefore, it can be said: "With a sincere heart to advise someone to correct and cease a mistake but rejected, then, stepped back with no rigorous quarrel." In the past, Wu Zi Xu(伍子胥), was persisted to advise his ruler and brought harm to himself. If he did not persist to advise the ruler, then, he won't become famous.

 

Come to think of it, is there really any "good"? Nowaday, people reckon the so-called happiness, I don't know is really happiness or not? I'd observed that people reckoned as happiness, they all do not hesitate to pursue this happiness. It seems they were determined and affirmatively cannot stop, thus they thought that was happiness. However, I reckon that there was nothing to be enjoyable. Also, there is nothing that is not enjoyable. Was there really any happiness or not?

 

I reckon that there is no need to verify what is enjoyable, but people in the world think that would be an extreme torment. Thus I would say: "The ultimate happiness is no vexation and no happiness; a perfect appraisal is not to be appraised." The rumors in the world were proven that they are not true. Hence, one can determine what is a rumor does not require any physical strength. The ultimate happiness and survival that almost can be accomplished is only by being Wu Wei(无为). Let's try to analyze it: Heaven can be clear and vacuous was because of Wu Wei, Earth can be in serenity was because of Wu Wei. Therefore, both Heaven and Earth are integrated by Wu Wei. All things become vitalized and existed. It was obscure and didn't know where they came from. It was obscured without a definite image or form. There are reproduction of all things with many kinds; they all came from Wu Wei. Thus it can be said: "Heaven and Earth are Wu Wei and there was nothing that they cannot be accomplished. Who can understand the principles of Wu Wei and follow after it...!!!

Edited April 1, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Protector]

Ah! The search for happiness.

 

First, of course, is to define what happiness is and come to an agreement with that defination. Until we define we know not what it is we are searching for.

 

Give me what you defined as happiness and the world will destroy it