[TTC Study] Chapter 18 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Give me what you defined as happiness and the world will destroy it

 

Ha! That is why I keep my true happiness within. External happiness can be expressed openly.

[Marblehead]

Let's try to analyze it:

Have you ever sat in a garden and just watched the beauty of a butterfly fluttering in the air?; fluttering from one flower to the next?

[ChiDragon]

Have you ever sat in a garden and just watched the beauty of a butterfly fluttering in the air?; fluttering from one flower to the next?

Yes, and the bees too...

[Protector]

Ha! That is why I keep my true happiness within. External happiness can be expressed openly.

 

It's still will be gone when you're gone

[dawei]

It's still will be gone when you're gone

I felt this but did not know how to state it. Nice.

[Marblehead]

It's still will be gone when you're gone

I disagree. If one is happy when one passes on then that happiness becomes eternal.

[ChiDragon]

I have been known to do that in the past so this certainly is not the first time I have jumped the gun. Hehehe.

 

But really, there still is no answer yet, is there?

 

The last two paragraphs of Chapter 18 say.....

 

Come to think of it, is there really any "good"? Nowaday, people reckon the so-called happiness, I don't know is really happiness or not? I'd observed that people reckoned as happiness, they all do not hesitate to pursue this happiness. It seems they were determined and affirmatively cannot stop, thus they thought that was happiness. However, I reckon that there was nothing to be enjoyable. Also, there is nothing that is not enjoyable. Was there really any happiness or not?

 

I reckon that there is no need to verify what is enjoyable, but people in the world think that would be an extreme torment. Thus I would say: "The ultimate happiness is no vexation and no happiness; a perfect appraisal is not to be appraised." The rumors in the world were proven that they are not true. Hence, one can determine what is a rumor does not require any physical strength. The ultimate happiness and survival that almost can be accomplished is only by being Wu Wei(无为). Let's try to analyze it: Heaven can be clear and vacuous was because of Wu Wei, Earth can be in serenity was because of Wu Wei. Therefore, both Heaven and Earth are integrated by Wu Wei. All things become vitalized and existed. It was obscure and didn't know where they came from. It was obscured without a definite image or form. There are reproduction of all things with many kinds; they all came from Wu Wei. Thus it can be said: "Heaven and Earth are Wu Wei and there was nothing that they cannot be accomplished. Who can understand the principles of Wu Wei and follow after it...!!!

Edited April 1, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

The last two paragraphs of Chapter 18 say.....

Yes, but I get from this that each person will judge for themself what happiness is and whether they are or have ever experienced it.

 

"True happiness is the ability to be happy in an empty room." - Marblehead

 

This thought is thanks to Pascal for his thought that:

 

"The trouble with Western man is that he does not know how to be content (happy) in an empty room."

[ChiDragon]

Yes, but I get from this that each person will judge for themself what happiness is and whether they are or have ever experienced it.

 

"True happiness is the ability to be happy in an empty room." - Marblehead

 

This thought is thanks to Pascal for his thought that:

 

"The trouble with Western man is that he does not know how to be content (happy) in an empty room."

 

"The ultimate happiness is no vexation and no happiness; a perfect appraisal is not to be appraised."

[Protector]

Behold! The Tao of the Marshmallow!

 

http://rawksoup.com/neighborhood/pg/blog/read/10461/how-to-get-everything-you-want-and-be-happy-what-i-learned-so-far

[CloudHands]

There is something I don't understand. What sounds odd to me is the reference to a golden age where people lived the natural way, then have been transformed by themselves. "Forgetting it" they have found instead morality, goodness (humanity, justice), and mind-sophistication leading to hypocrisy.

Maybe I'm wrong but I relate this to language (developments) because I see in it the seeds of all intellectual manipulations, the base of concept creation which are done to be useful but imperfect and allows anyone to feel that, he, by himself is/can be the truth-speaker.

 

Where that goes really confusing is that our brain seems to be managed firstly to act socially and (I believe) the language area takes a huge place in it that even is what looks typical of us.

To conclude, does that reflection make sense ? and if so, our path as species is to go through disharmony, isn't it ?

[Marblehead]

There is something I don't understand.

Good observations. Difficult question.

 

In my understanding, when this "golden age" is spoken of it really never happened. It is but an ideal. Yes, a nice ideal, but still.

 

But then, I think it is true that any person with all their faculties can self-transform into a person who is always true to themself.

 

And yes, language is probably the most important thing that allows people to live with others in a social group.

 

Yes, there will be periods of disharmony. I think that this is why we must remain flexible, not only regarding our inner essence but also between ourself and our outer reality. A nature of Tao is change. Each change brings disharmony. So we modify the tune and return to harmony for a while until the time of our next disharmony. I think that is called living. So let's not look at disharmony as something negative but rather just one of the processes of Tao.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Marblehead

[CloudHands]

In my understanding, when this "golden age" is spoken of it really never happened. It is but an ideal. Yes, a nice ideal, but still.

Yes, possible. That changes a lot of things and I understand better this way : )

I did not want to make feel disharmony as something negative, only something difficult, because unstable. The state between 1 and 3. But... don't you have the impression that we (western people) keep changing in 2 at least since the fall of the kings ?

 

Quote I relate :

"“The reason people find it so hard to be happy is that they always see the past better than it was, the present worse than it is, and the future less resolved than it will be.” -Lao Tzu

Someone quotes it in the quotes section, I did not remember of it.

 

I thank you for your answer, you spoke the Tao.

[Marblehead]

Good quote for the discussion at hand.

[Stosh]

In black narcissus , the people of the village are being described, I paraphrase from memory here,

'The men are simple mountain folk ,but no better, no worse than such men anywhere else.

The women and children are like women and children anywhere.'

 

Im just positing that even 2500 years ago one could see the differences between those raised in a small community off the beaten path and that of a large complex social community... and even today as our society becomes yet more remote from simpler ways of days gone by, the same trend seems true. Normal values get subverted to 'fit ' with the greater complexities that folks are subject to, but the people at heart arent really different.

[CloudHands]

the people at heart arent really different.

Probably : ) Some will say not, so how to be sure ?

I met very different people, all are more or less similar on their needs (at heart?).

To call different is matter of scales (time, quantity, quality), the discussion could never end.

 

- if we're here to discuss -

I can add, that psychology confirmed what taoist thinkers felt : the bigger you think you can get and the less you are more you create frustration and anger. In general case (I speak about people close to western values) the distance between these 2 points has (imo) never been that far.

Society (as everything) is always changing, disharmony (or tension) just looks more obvious nowadays.

Am I just reformulating my way what you expressed ?

[dawei]

Good observations. Difficult question.

 

In my understanding, when this "golden age" is spoken of it really never happened. It is but an ideal. Yes, a nice ideal, but still.

Let's be a better student of history than to write it all off as simply mythology:

 

 

“In the beginning there was as yet no moral or social order. Men knew their mothers only, not their fathers. When hungry, they searched for food; when satisfied, they threw away the remnants. They devoured their food hide and hair, drank the blood, and clad themselves in skins and rushes. Then came Fu Xi and looked upward and contemplated the images in the heavens, and looked downward and contemplated the occurrences on earth. He united man and wife, regulated the five stages of change, and laid down the laws of humanity. He devised the eight trigrams, in order to gain mastery over the world.” (Ban Gu, Baihu tongyi written in the first century AD). -- Legge

 

Zhuangzi wrote: “Are you, Sir, unacquainted with the age of perfect virtue? Anciently there were Rong-cheng, Da-ting, Bo-huang, Zhong-yang, Li-lu,Li-Chu, Xian-yuan, He-xu, Zun-lu, Zhu-rong, Fu-xi, and Shen-nong. In their times the people made knots on cords in carrying on their affairs. They thought their (simple) food pleasant, and their (plain) clothing beautiful. They were happy in their (simple) manners, and felt at rest in their (poor) dwellings. (The people of) neighbouring states might be able to descry one another; the voices of their cocks and dogs might be heard (all the way) from one to the other; they might not die till they were old; and yet all their life they would have no communication together. In those times perfect good order prevailed.” -- Legge

 

The legalist document Policies says, “In the times of Shen-nong, men ploughed to obtain food, and women wove to obtain clothing. Without the application of punishments or governmental measures, order prevailed; without the raising of mailed soldiers, he reigned supreme. After Shen-nong had died, the weak were conquered by force and the few oppressed by the many. Therefore Huang-di created the ideas of prince and minister, of superior and inferior, the rites between father and son, between elder and younger brothers, the union between husband and wife, and between consort and mate. At home, he applied sword and saw, and abroad he used mailed soldiers; this was because the times had changed. Looking at it from this point of view, Shen-nong is not higher than Huang-di, but the reason that his name was honoured was because he suited his time. “ -- Legge

 

The so-called “Model of Shen Nong” paints a utopian picture where neither punishment nor army nor ruler nor social inequity existed: where people slept sound, awoke refreshed, knew their mothers but not their fathers and were neighbors with the deers. The Shangzi says that there was neither punishment nor administration, yet society was quite stable. Without the need for soldiers or weapons he rose to rulership.

 

 

The Teng Wen Gong said: “In the time of Yao, when the world had not yet been perfectly reduced to order, the vast waters, flowing out of their channels, made a universal inundation. Vegetation was luxuriant, and birds and beasts swarmed. The various kinds of grain could not be grown. The birds and beasts pressed upon men. The paths marked by the feet of beasts and prints of birds crossed one another throughout the Middle Kingdom. To Yao alone this caused anxious sorrow. He raised Shun to office, and measures to regulate the disorder were set forth. Shun committed to Yi the direction of the fire to be employed, and Yi set fire to, and consumed, the forests and vegetation on the mountains and in the marshes, so that the birds and beasts fled away to hide themselves. Yu separated the nine streams, cleared the courses of the Ji and Ta, and led them all to the sea. He opened a vent also for the Ru and Han, and regulated the course of the Huai and Si, so that they all flowed into the Jiang. When this was done, it became possible for the people of the Middle Kingdom to cultivate the ground and get food for themselves. During that time, Yu was eight years away from his home, and though he thrice passed the door of it, he did not enter. Although he had wished to cultivate the ground, could he have done so? The Minister of Agriculture taught the people to sow and reap, cultivating the five kinds of grain. When the five kinds of grain were brought to maturity, the people all obtained a subsistence. But men possess a moral nature; and if they are well fed, warmly clad, and comfortably lodged, without being taught at the same time, they become almost like the beasts. This was a subject of anxious solicitude to the sage Shun, and he appointed Xie to be the Minister of Instruction, to teach the relations of humanity: how, between father and son, there should be affection; between sovereign and minister, righteousness; between husband and wife, attention to their separate functions; between old and young, a proper order; and between friends, fidelity. The high meritorious sovereign said to him, "Encourage them; lead them on; rectify them; straighten them; help them; give them wings - thus causing them to become possessors of themselves. Then follow this up by stimulating them, and conferring benefits on them." -- Legge

 

Zhuang Zi, a Warring State period philosopher, describes the transition of the early times of order to the then-present disorder:

'And moreover I have heard that anciently birds and beasts were numerous, and men were few, so that they lived in nests in order to avoid the animals. In the daytime they gathered acorns and chestnuts, and in the night they roosted on the trees; and on account of this they are called the people of the Nest-builder. Anciently the people did not know the use of clothes. In summer they collected great stores of faggots, and in winter kept themselves warm by means of them; and on account of this they are called the people who knew how to take care of their lives. In the age of Shen Nong, the people lay down in simple innocence, and rose up in quiet security. They knew their mothers, but did not know their fathers. They dwelt along with the elks and deer. They ploughed and ate; they wove and made clothes; they had no idea of injuring one another: this was the grand time of Perfect virtue. Huang-Di, however, was not able to perpetuate this virtuous state. He fought with Chi-you in the wild ofZhuo-lu till the blood flowed over a hundred li. When Yao and Shun arose, they instituted their crowd of ministers. Tang banished his lord. King Wu killed Zhou. Since that time the strong have oppressed the weak, and the many tyrannised over the few. From Tang and Wu downwards, (the rulers) have all been promoters of disorder and confusion.’ -- Legge

 

In another passage he writes: ‘This condition (of excellence) deteriorated and decayed, till Sui-ren and Fu-xi arose and commenced their administration of the world; on which came a compliance (with their methods), but the state of unity was lost. The condition going on to deteriorate and decay, Shan Nang and Huang-Di arose, and took the administration of the world, on which (the people) rested (in their methods), but did not themselves comply with them. Still the deterioration and decay continued till the lords of Tang and Yu began to administer the world. These introduced the method of governing by transformation, resorting to the stream (instead of to the spring), thus vitiating the purity and destroying the simplicity (of the nature). They left the Dao, and substituted the Good for it, and pursued the course of Haphazard Virtue. After this they forsook their nature and followed (the promptings of) their minds. One mind and another associated their knowledge, but were unable to give rest to the world. Then they added to this knowledge (external and) elegant forms, and went on to make these more and more numerous. The forms extinguished the (primal) simplicity, till the mind was drowned by their multiplicity. After this the people began to be perplexed and disordered, and had no way by which they might return to their true nature, and bring back their original condition.’ – Legge

 

And again writes: 'There is no one whom the world exalts so much as it does Huang-Di, and still he was not able to perfect his virtue, but fought in the wilderness of Zhuo-lu, till the blood flowed over a hundred li. Yao was not kind to his son. Shun was not filial. Yu was paralysed on one side. Tang banished his sovereign. King Wu smote Zhou. King Wen was imprisoned in You-li. These are the six men of whom the world thinks the most highly, yet when we accurately consider their history, we see that for the sake of gain they all disallowed their true (nature), and did violence to its proper qualities and tendencies: their conduct cannot be thought of but with deep shame.” -- Legge

[Marblehead]

Let's be a better student of history than to write it all off as simply mythology:

Damn Dawei! You don't expect me to respond to all those quotes, I am sure.

 

Yes, I will grant that there is almost always some truth in mythology. I look at human nature today and see what I see.

 

Perhaps there was a time when people lived in peace and trust with their neighbor. I don't deny the possibility.

 

I wish I could say more but nothing is coming to mind.

[dawei]

Damn Dawei! You don't expect me to respond to all those quotes, I am sure.

 

Yes, I will grant that there is almost always some truth in mythology. I look at human nature today and see what I see.

 

Perhaps there was a time when people lived in peace and trust with their neighbor. I don't deny the possibility.

 

I wish I could say more but nothing is coming to mind.

No I didn't expect any comment to the quotes... only an acknowledgement of the possibility that not all stories are just stories... too many references and so little space to soften our incredulity...

 

But you know I may hammer away at the philosophy-is-enough aspect at times. Glad your sporting enough to put up with it as I am to put up with it

[Marblehead]

No I didn't expect any comment to the quotes... only an acknowledgement of the possibility that not all stories are just stories... too many references and so little space to soften our incredulity...

 

But you know I may hammer away at the philosophy-is-enough aspect at times. Glad your sporting enough to put up with it as I am to put up with it

Yeah, you are another of those folks I was talking about yesterday. We don't always agree but I do enjoy talking with you. You have caused me to think a few times and that is good.

 

I do try to never deny the possibility of anything. The Mystery is so mysterious!

[ilumairen]

I don't see negativity in Chapter 18. I see as clear of a picture of the 'what is' of a society that can be painted.

[Pelly]

I keep reading different versions of 18 and the only one that makes the most sense to me is Ron Hogan's:

 

When people ignore Tao,
they start talking about "righteousness" and "sanctity".
When they forget what's true,
they start talking about "self-evident truths".
When they do not respect each other,
they start talking about "political correctness" 
and "family values".
When the nation is unstable,
they start talking about "patriotism".