The Secret of Conscious Co-Creation

[freeform]

jumping in a little late...

 

Very interesting reading, this thread... I think I've learnt more about the people here than I have about the 'truth', but people are far more interesting than 'truth' for me...

 

Hagar's position is that the film is glamourising the constant urge to control the universe... because he has learnt through experience that we never really have control - all control is illusion...

 

Sean's position seems to be that the film explains well a model (illusion) that is very usefull - and since most of us operate in illusion constantly, then why not choose your illusions so that you can have more fun?

 

So this is my observation: you need a bit of both! Just because something is an illusion doesn't mean it's inherently evil, or is somehow in opposition to the tao etc. We all live in illusion, however much we like to think that we're free from them, no one here, imo, has demonstrated that they're free from them - that includes you hagar, me and everyone else...

 

So let's say a young lady has been raped... no normal human in that circumstance would think 'oh well - that's life'... people always tend to attach meaning and emotion to what happened... a very common feeling for rape victims is that they brought it on themselves (and most of em havent seen this film)... they think "I shouldn't have been out at night in this part of town" - or "I shouldn't have worn these clothes" etc etc - they just constantly blame themselves for the horrific thing that happened to them... This guilt is an illusion. It can affect the victim for the rest of their life, and it generaly affects them in a detrimental manner (i.e. it limits their freedom in some way).

 

Having studied how people tend to recover from terrible traumas I've learnt that there is a specific model (illusion) that tends to allow them to move on... I wont go into details about it - but the point is: would you rather leave this rape victim with an illusion that is detrimental or would you help them adopt a new illusion that allows them to move on and grow past this trauma? Or would you just tell her - it's all illusion, so it doesn't really matter how it makes you feel... learn to live with it?

 

For some reason in the deeper spiritual circles illusion's got a bad reputation - yes, I do agree that if you want to really progress in your spiritual evolution then you have to transend illusion... but the thing is, that since we have the neurology that we do - we will spend most of our lives living right in the midst of illusion. Illusion is the only thing that can be controlled! and I think it's ridiculous to dogmatically denounce people who play with their illusions and I think it's ridiculous to dogmatically assert the solipsistic view that 'it's all an illusion, so why bother trying to transend it'.

 

I'm pragmatic - if you live in a massive pile of shit - then you take that shit and build a castle out of it! rather than sitting around thinking - well it's all shit anyway, so I'm gonna try and ignore it and get enlightened, because I dont want to be associated with shit.

 

IMO - just like in life, one's spirituality tends to move through phases... first is the accumulation phase - that means using illusion to get what you want in life - money, sexual partners, security, chi flow, push-hands skills, great flexibility etc. I think this is an important part (maybe frivolous, but important)... because once you've accumulated all this, you realise deep inside that all this accumulated stuff is just illusion... and that's when the turning point happens - this is the somewhat painfull, confusing and most exciting part of transformation - this is where you have the chance to empty yourself of all the illusion! it's hard because everything you find comfortable, true, real and important has to go! That means your deepest beliefs about spirituality, it means all the characteristics that you identify with, all your pre-conceptions, all the skill you've built up in all the areas of your life have to be let go of.

 

P.S. Hagar,

 

The UNIVERSE will reflect what you think? What kind of huge egos are we becoming?

 

can you see how your aversion to this model is in itself indicative to your own illusions? Maybe different illusions, but imo they still are just that: illusions. Don't you think that your distaste for the film is coming from the ego? I'm in no way claiming it's a bad thing... certainly most of what you've read from me is my own self-built illusion coming from the ego. But you say that people are kidding themselves with these sorts of ideas - but arent you kidding yourself with your own ideas?

 

I may be wrong, but the way I see it: both you and I are living in the pile of shit... I've built myself a shit-castle, you've built yourself a shit-palace and we're both sitting on our shit-thrones telling each other what is wrong with each others shit-dwellings... and maybe discussing how great it would be not to live in this pile of shit in the first place.... I think that I should use the shit - build myself a shit-plane and fly off - and when high up in the air jump out and live life falling through the moment, with no shit involved.

 

P.P.S I hope you read the above, realising the tongue-in-cheek tone that I intended.

[thaddeus]

That's it, enough talking

 

h

I don't want to do a disservice to you and cloud by not responding to all your points, I just can't right now. But I did want to say that your comments about pain leading to enlightenment are interesting. Can the 'gay guy in the movie' also use joy to be enlightened. You and the other teachers use pain as a guidance system, just as many other teachers use joy as a guidance system. What is joy and what is pain? Is someone inflicting pain on himself somehow different than one indulging in joy? I don't really see the difference. Why does embracing only the hurtful parts of life lead to awakening? There are just as many unhurtful stories of awakening, like when buddha purportedly held up the flower--noone was crying when that happened. This is all more of the tired all belief systems whereby poor=good, pain=true, etc. I choose joy..but it's the same as choosing pain. A joyous persons chances are just as good atawakening as one wallowing in misery..Another interesting idea is that somehow getting prayers answered is a bad 'disgusting' thing. I don't see the world that way.

More later..T

[hagar]

Thank you Freeform, for such a good recap of the basic points.

I will try to be a bit less polemical this time, and just answer some of your arguments.

 

First of all, we don't live in a pile of shit. Where's the shit? Life is beautiful. . But it's not beautiful because I perceive it to be so. It's actually not an illusion. We don't need a little bit of both. Here's where I think Sean and some others are completely off track: We don't have to live in illusion. Pain is not an illusion. Anger is not an illusion. But our responses to them is creating illusions. That kind of destillation of spiritual traditions is down right wrong. Thinking that everything is emptiness is the kind of sidetrack that gets you stuck in nihilism. And that will cut you off from other people, and reality. Emptiness is also form: The earth will be filled with painful things. Real life is I have a pain in my hip. Illusion is this: I affirm positive thougths and it will go away. Reality is this: I drink a good red wine. What a wonderful taste. Illusion is this: I want to have this kind of taste experience every time, so I will affirm this experience over and over. I want more red wine in my life. Reality is this: I see a friend who is depressed. Please don't sit and affirm that this person is not depressed!!! Or even worse, visualize that you don't have depressed friends! Instead, spend time with him, take in all his negative energy, be with him and feel his pain. And realize that he may never fully recover. And feel compassion about that. THAT IS NOT AN ILLUSION!

 

Your story about the rape victim is exactly what this movie is trying to push down our throats. Wanting good things are not evil. And a Lamborghini is not evil. But if I get stuck in affirming to myself only good things and not "feeding" the negative, I get stuck in dualism. That will stop your opening to reality. Reality is actually there. And if the lady really sat down and felt the pain of her abuse, she would probably wake up from illusion, not create pleasing ones. She would suddenly connect her suffering to the suffering of all others, and probably it would never really go away, but instead make her a compassionate person. Read the buddhist vietnam veteran who did this all the way. Hard core suffering made into hard core realization.

 

I remember some time ago, I reflected back on what had happened in my life, seeing how it had shaped me as a person. And I remeber especially one incident that stood out, as I clearly remember it as the worst and best day of my entire life so far. I broke my back skiing. I had moved into an appartment in a French ski resort in the Alps, and just bought my season pass. And then I wiped out on a powder day, compressing my spinal column, and fracturing a disc.

In that very moment, I was gasping for air, feelig absolutely terrified, thinking how life would be as a paraplegic, and thinking what a complete idiot I was. And at the same time as I was still. Completely at ease, like I have been born into this world for the very first time. I saw the mountains and the sun, and the glittering snow as I was turning back and forth trying to breathe again. I was like being shot. The most beautiful moment of awakening I ever had experienced, like being taken into the lap of the universe, being whispered its secrets. Then I threw up, put myself slowly back together and for some idiotic reason skied back down on my own, to the hospital. Later I was told, I could not compete anymore because of the injury, and I started with qigong, and met my master who healed my injury. Very good. Conclusion: stop being perfect, let's evolve.

Watch "Fight Club" again and rethink the discussion above.

 

And, Yes; My ego responded to the movie! And it would really like to be bigger.

 

h

[hagar]

Jeez, I should stop typing....

 

T. Very good point. And also a difficult one to answer.

Since I'm not any more enlightened than the average couch potato, I should probably not try to answer either...

 

The only thing I can say is that there is no way around pain. Sooner or later in practice you must face your demons, your holding patterns, your suppressed emotions and you fear of death. And it's not pleasant, its not all good, and definately not just something you can affirm your way out of. So I have bad news, that's actually good news. If you don't mind being in abit of pain your life will unfold in such a way unimaginable to you before you embark on the journey through purgatorio. How are pearls made? From the pain of sea shells.

 

A spiritual path that emphasizes joy is fine and dandy. But if that path is not integrating pain, then there cannot be any joy. Actually, happiness is actually abit painful. If there wasn't abit of sadness or grief there, then it would't be so. Why is something beautiful? Because it sooner or later will wither and pass away. But if you accept this pain, life is even more beautiful. There's also much pleasure in loss. Like the feeling you have of complete surrender when you fail on an exam, or your girlfriend packs her bags and leaves. An eerie sense of powerlessness that is actually a crack where the light seeps in.

 

h

[cloud recluse]

And your point about the tao is.....?

 

 

Um,sorry if this is going to sound really dense,but I dont understand your statement here Im sure its really obvious,but Im not sure what your trying to say here.I mean I get the next bit about Dream/Life etc ,but whats are you getting at with the first question?Could you make that clearer please.

 

Sorry if Im being a bit thick here Regards,Cloud.

[freeform]

wow Hagar - great stuff!

 

I think I'm starting to understand your point much better. Again when you talk about the world, the universe and life, to me you are really talking about yourself - this is how I learn about myself and the people around me - I read what you wrote carefully, with a constant thought in the back of my mind - 'what would it be like if this was true for me?' this allows me to empathise with you, and conversely to anyone else... after I empathise, I go back into my own centre and think 'what can I learn from this?' and that's when it gets interesting.

 

I completely agree with you on one point - most people tend to supress pain and reframe it as pleasure - creating all this illusion! I dont know if it's a cultural thing, or an individual thing, but we're programmed to constantly avoid pain - even if that means inventing some illusion to make it seem like there is no pain! and that is how blockages to expriencing the present are created.

 

I think your advice to experience whatever it is that happens without attempting to supress, or in some way control the effect it has on you is a noble one - and is indeed one of the most important lessons for someone looking for some sort of spiritual transformation.

 

However thaddeus made a very good point! I've met many people who (whether cultural, or individual) tend to hold on to pain! It's counter intuitive for most people, but I bet you've met several people like that. Somehow framing everything as potential pain and discomfort helps to keep their ego together. And the structure or process of that subconcious behaviour is exactly the same as when people try to hold on to pleasure.

 

Now, if we take that structure and process and forget about the basic constituents 'pleasure' and 'pain' (they are just labels afterall) and notice that most of our experience is actually filtered through that structure and process! It may not be about pleasure and pain, it is far more likely to be the hundreds of shades of gray in between... but the fact still remains we constantly create illusion!!!! We tend to only notice the things around us that allows us to stay 'sane' (otherwise known as keeping your ego intact)... this structure/process happens at light-speed, we dont notice it - it's unconcious - but we do it all the time.

 

And this brings us to your experience of having your back broken. And I've had a similar situation. Your mind shuts up... everything becomes clear, time stops and you are in the present - no filtering, no process, no structure, just being. Those are the moments that arise after some shock - whether the shock is extreme pain or extreme pleasure - or extreme nothing... but the point is in that moment you dont need anything, you dont look for anything, you dont see beauty, you dont see ugliness, you just see, just experience pure, filterless attention.

 

And that is why I was saying that we live in shit - shit=illusion, but we live in it all the time - it can be good it can be bad - but only when we have the shock of falling out of the shit-plane do we experience the universe as it truly is... and that is a rare event. Your unconcious immediately recognises the value of this state and sends you off to try to re-live it... whether by doing spiritual excersises or extreme sports, or pain or pleasure... the problem is that again it's a case of grasping for something, trying to re-live some peak experience - when in fact enlightenment lies right here in front of you, between now and your next thought!

 

As good old Will Shakespeare said: "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"... if you stop 'thinking' you wont feel pleasure or pain, you will just be in the now. Whether it's pleasure that stops this thinking structure/process or pain that stops it - it doesn't really matter. Because you learnt the most valuable lesson of your life through pain doesn't mean that someone else cant learn theirs through pleasure.

[Yoda]

Debating the pros and cons of the law of attraction is identical to the debate over the existence of karma: both share the same 'blame the victim' problem and both are in some respects incidental or even detrimental to the path.

 

Actually, the 'law of attraction' is simply the 'law of karma' renamed and refocused from a past life emphasis to emphasizing its action in this life.

 

Regarding the 'blame the victim' aspect of karma, many Buddhist teachers emphasize that the idea of karma isn't for export and proselytizing... that would be very offensive, as people would immediately think of Nazi Germany and starving children. The idea of karma is a tool to be applied to one's own life as a useful feedback device and to help cultivate an understanding of the world that would support one's practice and evolution.

 

Mahamudra type teachers who teach at a very advanced level might say that the whole concept of karma is completely false as it focuses on an 'I' that is separate from the world and that this division needs to be left behind.

 

I believe that the law of karma/attraction is false just like Newtonian physics is false from a deeper, quantum perspective and that it can hold one back from the deeper understandings if clung to too tightly. But, just like Newtonian physics is still used for the bulk of our day to day applications, as long as one does perceive that the 'I' is separate from the world, the law of karma/attraction is still very useful.

 

The benefit of the law of attraction has over the law of karma, is that the focus is on this life so there's more utility to it. Also, it is freer from the trappings and moral-ism of religion and is less restrictive and judgemental about what a good desire is and a bad desire. It's an incarnation of tantra: follow your bliss no matter what it is and that bliss will grow and grow and grow into a powerful, never ending love for all of creation that can even burn through the duality of 'me' and 'you'.

 

If one is in the mood to test out the law of attraction, there's just one catch: it can't be tested in the life of another. There's no way I can feel all the vibes of another person, so it's impossible to judge whether or not there was a manifestation that was inconsistent to another's feelings. Follow your own feelings and see if it matches. Society teaches us that there isn't a match, that random things just happen to you, that you shouldn't follow your feelings, that you should do as you are told, that you don't have power, etc. Test it for yourself.

 

The belief in the law of karma or attraction isn't a prereq. for a happy, blissful, yogic, uplifting life in the slightest but a commitment to joy, love, appreciation, and happiness is. There's no need for anything esoteric for that. It's just a tool that some find helpful.

 

-Yoda

[thaddeus]

Um,sorry if this is going to sound really dense,but I dont understand your statement here Im sure its really obvious,but Im not sure what your trying to say here.I mean I get the next bit about Dream/Life etc ,but whats are you getting at with the first question?Could you make that clearer please.

 

Sorry if Im being a bit thick here Regards,Cloud.

No, probably me just rushing and not thinking things or explaining things enough...crazy day..my point was you were bring up the dao but at the same time complaining that people "don't like complexity & want easy answers that appeal to the ego"..when you can argue the whole point of the dao is that it is simple.

Something like that..

T

also, why do you think accepting something like the 'law of attraction' is devoid of critical thinking skills?

[el_tortugo]

I liked it.... what I didn't sleep through that is. I do plan to watch it all soon when I am more awake.

 

I was a good movie do doze in and out of. I kept waking up to these really excited people telling me I could have whatever I want and to be greatful for the good things that I have.

 

But I'm gonna watch ong bak and some tibetan medicine documentary first.

 

I guess I liked what I saw because its helpful to me at this point. I am changing conscious and unconcious behavioral patterns and a slight bit of the depression. Things like this give a good push. With their inspirational practices that calm you down, make you smile and do nice things for others.

 

I saw alot in there to cross pollinate with chaos magick and other stuff.

 

I liked it. I figure I may as well take advantage of being a citizen of the empire while it lasts.

 

I am kind of scared to do things like this because I did a sigilization exercise that is the entry prereq. to get into T.O.P.Y. and it worked. I wasn't trying to join them i just decided to do it. It worked and I got into alot of trouble. I am still recovering. So now I am very careful about thinking of and asking for my ultimate dreams or desires. What if you get them and its not really what you want? or can handle?

 

Some of the exercises were very close to chaos magick practises and that interested me and also made me waery.

[lezlie]

I am kind of scared to do things like this because I did a sigilization exercise that is the entry prereq. to get into T.O.P.Y. and it worked. I wasn't trying to join them i just decided to do it. It worked and I got into alot of trouble. I am still recovering. So now I am very careful about thinking of and asking for my ultimate dreams or desires. What if you get them and its not really what you want? or can handle?

 

Some of the exercises were very close to chaos magick practises and that interested me and also made me waery.

 

How did you get into trouble and what is TOPY? What do you mean by not trying to join them, but it worked, exactly? How (are you) and what are you recovering from?

 

I'm not trying to critique or anything, I am just genuinely curious, you are speaking my language... sort of, but I don't know what any of that info means.

 

One of the things I've learned about magic in general is that you don't intend huge things into your life, say a career change. You intend a good day or more energy or something basic, so that can boost you to make the changes that you make when you are ... full of energy or... you know... having a good day. But, yeah, you don't want to be living an existance that say your 18 year old self wanted you to have... your goals/etc have changed since then, since life is always changing.

 

What makes the ideas from the movie specific to Chaos magick and not just magic in general? I don't know very much about Chaos magic...

[thaddeus]

http://www.ushpizin.com/home.html

 

cool movie based on the results of prayer..

[thelerner]

Best quote so far - Hagar -" This movie is working like a kind of existential anaesthesia; ". The movie "I Love(heart) Huckabees" has been making the rounds on HBO. It show cases the talents of two existential detectives

 

Michael

[Lozen]

I love that movie!

[neimad]

Debating the pros and cons of the law of attraction is identical to the debate over the existence of karma: both share the same 'blame the victim' problem and both are in some respects incidental or even detrimental to the path.

 

Actually, the 'law of attraction' is simply the 'law of karma' renamed and refocused from a past life emphasis to emphasizing its action in this life.

 

 

right on.

 

 

 

i just wanted to add this in regards to manifestation and creating what you want in your life.

 

manifestation is true, we do have the ability to alter our own life and create what we want from it with our intention.

 

we are all so focused on the magic of "i want a ferrari" and then poof in 2 weeks we suddenly get one.

 

perhaps if your intent and focus is that strong is this possible.... but the often neglected point is that manifestation takes work, just like everything else!!!!! just like enlightenment takes work, so too does the ability to get what we want in our life.

 

a very simple example:

a fat person decides they really don't want to be fat anymore. there intent is so strong, they do all the right things... the affirmations, etc. then.... they start working towards the goal. they start eating the right food, they start exercising. pretty soon the energy they are putting towards this goal begins to expand.... suddenly people are giving them advice on diet, they make new friends at the gym to keep them motivated..... and 6 months to a year later.... wow! they have lost a lot of weight, are feeling better about themselves and have just.... wait for it.... ALTERED THEIR REALITY!!!!

 

this kind of story is so mundane that we gloss over it and forget that this is the kind of power we all have. we have a goal, we want it strongly enough that we pour our energy into it and if our intent is strong enough..... it comes true because to some degree we are able to influence our illusion. it's our game and we all do have the ability to move within it in the pattern we want.

it's about the level of intent, about how much you really want whatever it is.... cos if your intent is pure and strong, you will do whatever you can to achieve that goal and it will come true. you get back what you give out.... for sure.

 

although i still dwell on the thoughts of their being a strong matrix of collective consciousness (earth consciousness) that tries to hold us into a set pattern or agenda in the same way our thoughts hold the set pattern for the cells within our body...... overcoming that bigger pattern (collective karma?) is what us spiritual seekers are looking for as well as overcoming our own micro-patterns (individual karma?).

[cloud recluse]

No, probably me just rushing and not thinking things or explaining things enough...crazy day..my point was you were bring up the dao but at the same time complaining that people "don't like complexity & want easy answers that appeal to the ego"..when you can argue the whole point of the dao is that it is simple.

Something like that..

T

also, why do you think accepting something like the 'law of attraction' is devoid of critical thinking skills?

 

Ok,now I get your point Well,with the first bit,I dont think the Dao itself is Simple,I think its Mysterious.Dropping the ego may be "Simple",in thats its a radical NotKnowing instead of an addition to conceptual knowledge,bit the Dao Itself isnt conceptually simple,its conceptually transcendant.Any concepts we come up with,be they simple or complex,cannot 'contain' the Dao itself,but harmonizing with the Dao's flow is "simply" a case of dropping our ego,not adding something to it.To call the Dao itself simple is to conceptualise it,to fail in the face of its immensity.So would calling it 'complex' for that matter,but in a way 'complex' is "closer",if you were to say unimagnably complex,in that no concept would be sufficient.

 

Then we get to the Daos local manifestations,the stuff we are all in the middle of,& so can make some reasonable comments about,as long as they are kept open to the revision of further experence.This is where you would observe & evaluate any finite phenomena,in the 'Realm of Duality' if you like,a realm far more dreamlike & flexible than its usually given credit for,but still a realm of finitude & form.So this is the place where you can talk about a 'thing',& whether or not its Simple or Complex etc.But such things are finite subsets of the Dao,thats what makes them 'graspable',& not the Daos totality.They are too 'small' to define the Daos Mystery.

 

In this realm,the realm we are now chatting about & trying to make balanced observations about,the Law of Attraction is only one of a number of forces interacting & flowing.There is also forces independent of us entering our lives,our own capacity for focus,conventional causality & chaos,& who knows what else.So my problem with the movie is it takes one finite influence,controlled & uncontrolled attraction,& makes it the sole determinant! This makes for a dangerously imbalanced picture which actually devalues & degrades manifest life,albeit unintentionally ( I dont think 'dualistic' life is bad or an irrelevant illusion,its just finite).

 

So ,to me ,thats the inaccuracy of the film,an old blunder & a potentially dangerous one.As to peoples personal motivations,instead of opening to the Daos Mystery,something that can be as terrifyingly disorientating as it can be heartbreakingly beautiful,its a lot easier to lock it into a smaller concept drawn from finite life.This is a standard egoic resistance,inevitable to some degree.Critical thinking is one faculty that can ameliorate this,though not the only one.We may never conceptually contain the Dao,but we can do its manifestations the honour of a balanced investigation.

 

The movie fails in this utterly,& just caters to the wishful thinking crowd.

 

As to your motives Thad,I have no idea.I cant actually see you or meet you & speak to you face-to-face I cant pick up on tone & inflection over the internet.So all i can do is try & hammer out something as comprehensive as possible in conceptual terms,a poor substitute perhaps,but it has its place.I agree that the law of attraction is simple,but its not the only law in operation here in the manifest realms,and to say that it is & demand it becomes an article of faith ( my impression of the movie after 2 viewings,Im not inclined to a 3rd) sounds like a fairly standard egoic copout.

 

The irony of all this is that this whole episode feels a bit like an uncontrolled manifestation.I only looked at the movie coz the topic of manifestation within finite life had become of particular interest to me very recently,& your post alluded to Victor Frankl,whose works I had just started rereading on the same day!!

 

What are the odds Regards,Cloud.

Edited June 11, 2006 by cloud recluse

[Smile]

This is all more of the tired all belief systems whereby poor=good, pain=true, etc. I choose joy..but it's the same as choosing pain.

Yes, pain or joy are just tools. And they all fall under 'impermanence'.

 

Pain is not an illusion. Anger is not an illusion. But our responses to them is creating illusions. That kind of destillation of spiritual traditions is down right wrong.

Pain and pleasure, anger and kindness... They come and go, do they not? So how are they not an illusion?

[Smile]

To add to what I just posted:

 

It's an interesting way to put the old ideas and market them this way to inspire people to change their lives. Their method can definately work and bring all the prosperity- I don't think it will bring happiness without a lot of supplementary work. I can hardly see it anything to do with spiritual path- more like with getting what you want in life.

 

A simple sitting meditation would be much more effective in doing that without creating traps.

[hagar]

Yes, pain or joy are just tools. And they all fall under 'impermanence'.

Pain and pleasure, anger and kindness... They come and go, do they not? So how are they not an illusion?

 

What does samsara relate to? Our grasping. The web of maya in buddhism doesn't make physical reality go away. Thus, if you become enlightened, you don't live in a void. You live on this earth, in this body.

Pain is NOT an lillusion, as it is a physical reality, just as the earth, as a sensation, as a physical innervation between inner and outer reality. Emptiness is form. YOu end up where you began.

 

In the end, this is what the Dao or Buddha nature is about. Recognizing the physical reality of this very moment. All the rest is illusion. This very instant is what is, either we experience pain, boredom, anger, pleasure, or we are too hot. Our interpretation of reality is creating suffering, but that doesn't mean that you can't sit down and eat a strawberry and feel how delicious it tastes.

There really is nothing else than state of affairs. You see this in some old, wise people, who at the end of their lives really understand that there really isn't anything to realize, nothing to attain, nothing to let go of. You just sit and drink your coffee with milk, and say ah, this is a darn good cup of coffee. That's as real as it gets.

 

The notion of impermanence is actually quite tricky. There is such a thing as our body, and our minds are just that, our bodies...

[thaddeus]

a very simple example:

a fat person decides they really don't want to be fat anymore. there intent is so strong, they do all the right things... the affirmations, etc. then.... they start working towards the goal. they start eating the right food, they start exercising. pretty soon the energy they are putting towards this goal begins to expand.... suddenly people are giving them advice on diet, they make new friends at the gym to keep them motivated..... and 6 months to a year later.... wow! they have lost a lot of weight, are feeling better about themselves and have just.... wait for it.... ALTERED THEIR REALITY!!!!

 

This isn't exactly manifestation the way I see it. Because this 'fat person' decides to lose weight and starts to actively exercise etc. he/she is actually 'doing' alot to force the new reality. They are essentially saying "I am a fat person who is going to go on this tried and true method to lose 60 pounds by diet, exercise and starving myself. I will probably fail, but I'm going to give it my best shot. If this doesn't work, I'll go on weight watchers, etc." Which is fine, but for the purpose of discussing the concept of manifestation I want to point something out. I believe that if the fat person begins to feel like a skinny person, very subtle chemical changes begin in their body to reflect the new thinking. They may be able to process sugar better, dopamine levels may increase, they may actually start to burn calories more efficiently. These subtle changes begin to seep into the day to day. I also believe that on some level our ideas about ourselves are broadcast to others around us on an unconscious level. Other people somehow start to treat the 'fat person' as if they were skinnier. While on this topic, I think a complete belief change is almost impossible. This is theortical. I think something that might be more acceptable instead of "I am skinny" is "I am getting thinner" etc. It's easy to self doubt "i am skinny" when you pass a mirror, but it's harder to doubt "I am getting thinner".

Anyway, my two cent ramble..

 

T

[thaddeus]

Ok,now I get your point Well,with the first bit,I dont think the Dao itself is Simple,I think its Mysterious.Dropping the ego may be "Simple",in thats its a radical NotKnowing instead of an addition to conceptual knowledge,bit the Dao Itself isnt conceptually simple,its conceptually transcendant.

<snip> ...

So my problem with the movie is it takes one finite influence,controlled & uncontrolled attraction,& makes it the sole determinant! This makes for a dangerously imbalanced picture which actually devalues & degrades manifest life,albeit unintentionally ( I dont think 'dualistic' life is bad or an irrelevant illusion,its just finite).

 

So ,to me ,thats the inaccuracy of the film,an old blunder & a potentially dangerous one.As to peoples personal motivations,instead of opening to the Daos Mystery,something that can be as terrifyingly disorientating as it can be heartbreakingly beautiful,its a lot easier to lock it into a smaller concept drawn from finite life.This is a standard egoic resistance,inevitable to some degree.Critical thinking is one faculty that can ameliorate this,though not the only one.We may never conceptually contain the Dao,but we can do its manifestations the honour of a balanced investigation.

 

The movie fails in this utterly,& just caters to the wishful thinking crowd.

..<snip>..

The irony of all this is that this whole episode feels a bit like an uncontrolled manifestation.I only looked at the movie coz the topic of manifestation within finite life had become of particular interest to me very recently,& your post alluded to Victor Frankl,whose works I had just started rereading on the same day!!

 

What are the odds Regards,Cloud.

I don't think there is anything 'complicated' in the sense that it can't be explained. I invariably find when I'm scratching my head trying to understand something someone is saying, it turns out they don't know what they are talking about. If I can't explain something simply, it just means I don't understand it.

 

I think you are being too harsh. It's just a movie..and of course it can only talk about 1 or 2 things. When you give speeches in public, you have to speak simply and slowly and repeat yourself so that people can understand. If this movie were anymore complicated or intellectual it would just fail, it would be so boring and turn everyone off. I feel it will inspire a lot of people to look deeply into how their thoughts and feelings affect their circumstance. Jesus spoke in parables to reach people. He was also at ease apparantly talking shop with the top rabbis. If he tried to talk to the locals like they were seasoned rabbis they wouldn't listen to him. No one is going to claim his message was 'dangerous' because it's wasn't a complicated hard to decipher message or was just a 'half truth'.

So, yeah, we can intellectualize, study, argue, and in the end, we'll say 'be happy' or 'just do good' or 'love' or whatever..I do know it won't be a diatribe.

as to the synchronicities you experience..very cool..it's makes life continuously special and surprising!

T

[cloud recluse]

 

I think you are being too harsh. It's just a movie..and of course it can only talk about 1 or 2 things. When you give speeches in public, you have to speak simply and slowly and repeat yourself so that people can understand. If this movie were anymore complicated or intellectual it would just fail, it would be so boring and turn everyone off....

 

Well,youve probably got me there,but from my 2 viewings,they were reducing EVERYTHING to the law of attraction,including political oppression & international politics.Would it have really cut into their running time that much to take a second to qualify what they said?Yes its only a movie,but movies are potent in this day & age.

I dunno,perhaps I am being harsh,but isnt that one of the priveleges of old age?y,know,part of the general senility package ?

 

Regards,Cloud

[Smile]

What does samsara relate to? Our grasping. The web of maya in buddhism doesn't make physical reality go away. Thus, if you become enlightened, you don't live in a void. You live on this earth, in this body.

Pain is NOT an lillusion, as it is a physical reality, just as the earth, as a sensation, as a physical innervation between inner and outer reality. Emptiness is form. YOu end up where you began.

 

Form is emptiness and emptiness is form.

 

I see that we are talking about the same thing but from different points of view. All the mental and physical sensations may seem so real at the moment but do they last? They come and go as they please. Buddha and other masters talked about not clinging to the sensations of this world because they are not lasting. They don't stay forever. The physical reality may stay as a whole but if you look at all the things that comprise it, you will see how they gradually change. Physical reality does change with every moment, hence they teach non-attachment.

[Yoda]

It's an interesting way to put the old ideas and market them this way to inspire people to change their lives. Their method can definately work and bring all the prosperity- I don't think it will bring happiness without a lot of supplementary work. I can hardly see it anything to do with spiritual path- more like with getting what you want in life.

 

A simple sitting meditation would be much more effective in doing that without creating traps.

 

 

Max,

 

The role of this kind of information may or may not have on the spiritual path is a good one for debate.

 

Some say that becoming a master of karma puts you in the god realm which is a bum steer. Some say that karma theory simply adds to the delusion of the ego being separate from the world. Some say that it's not harmful to be a zillionare or anything, it's just a waste of time.

 

 

At the very least, I would argue that being in this world, one needs to have some degree of mastery over karma in order to manifest enough cash and free time to practice and not to be too concerned with common worldly problems involving family, politics, the health of others, etc. You need to know enough about karma to see the bigger picture so that one can walk in joy in the midst of whatever is out there.

 

I think that us spiritual types tend to be extremely sensitive to the suffering of the world which really keeps us down. We need some sort of uplifting bigger picture perspective that encourages more tranquility, joy, and enthusiasm to help balance us out.

 

Aside from purely yogic applications, I'd argue that learning to "follow your bliss" more successfully snowballs on itself until eventually the bliss naturally evolves to very uplifting desires and manifestations for others.

 

Again, I don't think that a belief in karma or law of attraction is the key, but some form of happiness-boosting philosophy is.

 

-Yodsterz

[hagar]

Max

 

I agree that we are talking about the same thing. Only with different emphasis. Let's not try to become too buddhist or too philosophical, and just state the obvious: Things take form and pass away. But talking about what is real often turns into a tautology. This pain is painful, this mountian is a mountain. But they are in existence, they are REAL. But the moment you start to apply interpretation, things are veiled over by Maya. Then this pain I feel is "bad" and the mountian is "high". If we think that "everthing is emptiness, I am an illusion, or a fabric of my own mind, the "I" is non-existant, we are going to suffer, and often increase the alienation we feel towards others.

 

Instead, true spiritual cultivatoin is being so open, so present, that things hurt. Then you can see the beautiful in everything ephemeral, like people. See how they all suffer, will die, are lost. This is the biggest gift we can receive. Because it will never wither away, as wealth or abundance will. Life become so wonderful when having this openness. It's like when you walk around a city, and you want to give that stressed out businesswoman a big embrace, because you feel her suffering, her hopes, her fears, her joy. You see how hard she tries. How similar you and she is. That is living in gratitude. To feel the interconnection with you and others. You and that tree, that child.

Instead, if you spend your time visualizing things you want, things that make "you" happy, you separate yourself from this openness, because you move in the opposite direction. Towards duality.

 

So to get back to where I started: Why focus on one side of reality as a practitioner? THere is a third place, where meditation is actually possible. THis place is neutral.

 

From a neutral perspective, you see the focus on "getting what you want" as a big, big mistake. It will prolong your path towards open, still, acceptance of what is.

[Yoda]

the focus on "getting what you want" as a big, big mistake.

 

 

Hagar,

 

At first I was turned off by Esther b/c of the getting what you want focus, but I gradually realized that her teaching isn't about that.

 

While she does teach "ask and ye shall receive" it's only when you "seek first the kingdom of God, that all else will be added unto you." That's why it doesn't really matter if one buys or rejects the "ask and ye shall receive" philosophy as long as the "seek ye first" thing is primary. I comparison, it's an incidental 'marketing arm' of her message.

 

-Yoda