[TTC Study] Chapter 19 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[Mr. T]

hey guys and gals,

 

derek lin's translation just for kicks...

 

End sagacity; abandon knowledge

The people benefit a hundred times

 

End benevolence; abandon righteousness

The people return to piety and charity

 

End cunning; discard profit

Bandits and thieves no longer exist

 

These three things are superficial and insufficient

Thus this teaching has its place:

Show plainness; hold simplicity

Reduce selfishness; decrease desires

[Marblehead]

Yep. Good translation, I think.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Easy]

Hey,

 

Have you noticed that in his translation Henricks cuts the first line of Chapter 20 and pastes it to the bottom of Chapter 19? It seems to fit, no?

[Marblehead]

Henricks also states that Chapters 17, 18, and 19 should be read together as a unit.

[Tree Stump]

Here is the Bynner translation:

 

19.1 Rid of formalized wisdom and learning, people would be a hundredfold happier,

19.2 Rid of conventionalized duty and honor, people would find their families dear,

19.3 Rid of legalized profiteering, people would have no thieves to fear.

19.4 These methods of life have failed, all three,

19.5 Here is the way, it seems to me: Set people free, As deep in their hearts they would like to be

 

btw - has anybody come across a web page with the original chinese of the TTC, ideally with links from each Chinese symbol to a translation or etymology?

 

TS

[thelerner]

Interesting synchronicity, the book (9 1/2 Mystics) I'm reading has this line, 'The end of philosophy is the beginning of wisdom'. I've been chewing on it for a while.

 

Would you say in Western terms the Sage is academic, whereas in Eastern terms the Sage is a mystic? Or in the East is he a combination? Or, on the third hand in Traditional Chinese should we start academic and progress to mystic??

 

Michael

[Apech]

Interesting synchronicity, the book (9 1/2 Mystics) I'm reading has this line, 'The end of philosophy is the beginning of wisdom'. I've been chewing on it for a while.

 

Would you say in Western terms the Sage is academic, whereas in Eastern terms the Sage is a mystic? Or in the East is he a combination? Or, on the third hand in Traditional Chinese should we start academic and progress to mystic??

 

Michael

 

 

Hi,

 

Plenty of western philosophers have been mystics - but quite often it has been hidden by academics/the Church - because this type of thinking was suppressed in the west - while in the est this didn't happen as much.

[Easy]

Henricks also states that Chapters 17, 18, and 19 should be read together as a unit.

 

Thanks for that information MH. From what I can see in the Cleary translation, one can read from #17 down through #24 and see it stacking up as a unit.

[KCHooligan]

[Marblehead]

Thanks for that information MH. From what I can see in the Cleary translation, one can read from #17 down through #24 and see it stacking up as a unit.

 

Excellent observation.

[Marblehead]

[devoid]

Firstly, apologies to join into this discussion a bit late. Thanks to everybody all for all the great translations and comments!

 

It is interesting to see how the different translations can be so far apart in their conclusions on this chapter. I believe we can divide the translators into two main camps:

• Idealists
  
• Pragmatists
  

While the idealists tell the reader to be moderate in ones own pursuits and desires, the pragmatists seem to suggest that although the ideal is both easy to understand and highly desirable, it is far from reality - a kind of Utopia, if you will.

[Marblehead]

Firstly, apologies to join into this discussion a bit late. Thanks to everybody all for all the great translations and comments!

 

It is interesting to see how the different translations can be so far apart in their conclusions on this chapter. I believe we can divide the translators into two main camps:

• Idealists
  
• Pragmatists
  

While the idealists tell the reader to be moderate in ones own pursuits and desires, the pragmatists seem to suggest that although the ideal is both easy to understand and highly desirable, it is far from reality - a kind of Utopia, if you will.

 

Funny reading your post. I am both and Idealist and a Pragmatist. Sometimes that causes me confusion. Hehehe. I have oftentimes called myself a Realistic Optimist. (I imagine the ideal but know it's not going to happen.)

[manitou]

In its most simplistic form, the mantra for all this is Do Nothing.

[devoid]

Funny reading your post. I am both and Idealist and a Pragmatist. Sometimes that causes me confusion. Hehehe. I have oftentimes called myself a Realistic Optimist. (I imagine the ideal but know it's not going to happen.)

 

I know what you mean Marblehead, I guess we all have both sides in us - and occasionally they will quarrel about who is right - at the end of the day I believe there are many situations in real life where one has to compromise one for the other, no matter how much one would like to satisfy both

 

As such, I guess that we say the one who generally sacrifices pragmatism to idealism can be said to be righteous and have a high moral compass whereas one who constantly satisfies ideology for pragmatism can be said to be opportunistic and may even be accused of being self-serving and cynical. I'll certainly admit to all of those (including the both the flattering as well as the less flattering ones )

 

Somehow, the old Walt Disney: Donald Duck cartoons with Donald's inner angel and inner devil (each on one shoulder) trying to tell him what to do springs to mind

[Marblehead]

 

Somehow, the old Walt Disney: Donald Duck cartoons with Donald's inner angel and inner devil (each on one shoulder) trying to tell him what to do springs to mind

 

Ha! And that reminded me of the Native American story about the grandfather telling his grandson that we all have a good wolf and a bad wolf inside of us constantly fighting for dominance. The grandson asks which one wins and the grandfather says "The one we feed."

[manitou]

Ha! And that reminded me of the Native American story about the grandfather telling his grandson that we all have a good wolf and a bad wolf inside of us constantly fighting for dominance. The grandson asks which one wins and the grandfather says "The one we feed."

 

Now that's a great answer.

[devoid]

Ha! And that reminded me of the Native American story about the grandfather telling his grandson that we all have a good wolf and a bad wolf inside of us constantly fighting for dominance. The grandson asks which one wins and the grandfather says "The one we feed."

 

 

Now that's a great answer.

 

Ditto! What a great story and so true.

[windblown]

It's interesting that this chapter was chosen.

 

I am about to be offered a promotion at work that will hopefully come with a small raise. I know that the girl before, before last made $9.00 per hour. This made the current last girl very upset as she only made $8.67. I was hired at $8.50. I've been there 5 months. It's a retail job.

 

My question is do I ask for $9.00 when offered the promotion or do I settle for the .25 cents raise that she will try to give me? I should get what the before, before girl made as I have equal experience.

 

The new job entails much more responsibility and hard work and the manager is known for slicing the budget to a minimum...including payroll. She is highly moody and I don't want to get on her bad side but at the same time I am not an assertive person and perhaps I should try to be in this instance. I know some of you may be laughing that I only make $8.50 an hour at 40 years old but to tell you what...this is the best job I've ever had and I love going to work!

 

As this practical situation relates to this chapter does it mean that I should be free from the desire of asking for the extra quarter raise? Should i just take what is offered and go about my business?

 

I am the idealist type but I'm starting to be more practical which has certainly balanced my life out in a very positive way.

 

The only way I can 'get' the Tao Te Ching is to apply it to real situations in my life otherwise it remains superfluous theory. I hope you all don't mind my approach to trying to solve problems using the wisdom of the Tao Te Ching.

[manitou]

It's interesting that this chapter was chosen.

 

I am about to be offered a promotion at work that will hopefully come with a small raise. I know that the girl before, before last made $9.00 per hour. This made the current last girl very upset as she only made $8.67. I was hired at $8.50. I've been there 5 months. It's a retail job.

 

My question is do I ask for $9.00 when offered the promotion or do I settle for the .25 cents raise that she will try to give me? I should get what the before, before girl made as I have equal experience.

 

The new job entails much more responsibility and hard work and the manager is known for slicing the budget to a minimum...including payroll. She is highly moody and I don't want to get on her bad side but at the same time I am not an assertive person and perhaps I should try to be in this instance. I know some of you may be laughing that I only make $8.50 an hour at 40 years old but to tell you what...this is the best job I've ever had and I love going to work!

 

As this practical situation relates to this chapter does it mean that I should be free from the desire of asking for the extra quarter raise? Should i just take what is offered and go about my business?

 

I am the idealist type but I'm starting to be more practical which has certainly balanced my life out in a very positive way.

 

The only way I can 'get' the Tao Te Ching is to apply it to real situations in my life otherwise it remains superfluous theory. I hope you all don't mind my approach to trying to solve problems using the wisdom of the Tao Te Ching.

 

 

It would be interesting to try to apply the principle of wu-wei to this situation, if we could just figure out what that would be.

 

To say 'do nothing' is totally disingenuous. But there is a 'do-nothing' dynamic that may be beneficial.

 

If it were me, (and particularly if you love the job as much as you do) I would go to the trouble of studying up about it. Study up about the level ahead of you as well. Know your stuff. Anticipate the problems before they arrive - in other words, be the type of employee that are few and far between.

 

At some point in time I would approach the boss and let her know that you are aware of the tight financial conditions at this time, but that at some point in time you look forward to a nice raise or promotion. This will only work if you have something over and above what everyone else has to offer. Have some sort of a device in mind which is all yours, like an idea for a more efficient operation. If you show her that you care more about the job than just an employee putting in his 8 hours, I think she'll be putty in your hands down the road. Plant the seed.

 

Once you've instigated this 'plan', do 'do-nothing' from that point on. Water the seed. Let it come to you; be as impeccable and as kind to everybody as you can every day; let your good character shine through. Don't obsess over the extra quarter - your reward will be much greater than that down the road - just 'know' that you will be rewarded whether it comes in the form you're expecting or not. that's how wu-wei works. Good luck to you....

[Marblehead]

Hi Windblown,

 

I would feel uncomfortable speaking to your issue but I do wish you the very best with the job and promotion.

[dawei]

絕 仁 棄 義 ，

Abandon benevolence and discard righteousness

 

絕 巧 棄 利 ，

Abandon cleverness and discard monetary gain

 

見 素 抱 樸

Manifest purity and embrace simplicity

 

少 私 寡 欲 。

Lessen selfishness and weaken desires

 

絕 學 無 憂 。

Abandon [all] learning without worry

[Marblehead]

You sure are challenging my little pea-brain this morning. Hehehe.

 

I cannot speak to this one as I have no knowledge of the Chinese language.

 

I do understand though that in translating, much is open for interpretation. I therefore must rely on logic when reading various translations. If the flow of the words used are consistent with the concept being presented as well as the overall theme of the TTC I can accept the various words. On the other hand, if the logic breaks down I will question or even ignore that specific translation.

[manitou]

絕 仁 棄 義 ，

Abandon benevolence and discard righteousness

 

絕 巧 棄 利 ，

Abandon cleverness and discard monetary gain

 

見 素 抱 樸

Manifest purity and embrace simplicity

 

少 私 寡 欲 。

Lessen selfishness and weaken desires

 

絕 學 無 憂 。

Abandon [all] learning without worry

 

My god, I love this.

 

Benevolence and righteousness is what arises after the Tao has been lost. In its purest form, there is no need for benevolence as the Tao is self infused with love and compassion.

 

Cleverness is an intentional warping of the uncarved wood. It is not natural; it is contrived; cleverness is not a great usage of knowledge. Honesty is better. Cleverness insinuates a type of contrivance that is done with intent. I understand the monetary gain thing in my soul, but it's really hard to put into words. If we stay in a state of awareness, if we could essentially Be Here Now all day, we would see opportunities arise that we wouldn't see otherwise because we have planned out a path for ourselves and we sort of have blinders on. The sage would rely more on the things that rise and fall each day and keep himself open to what rolls down the pike.

 

And conventional wisdom tells us to plan out a financial path, but the Sage would certainly make use of serendipity, much as in the Art of War. To focus our attention specifically on 'monetary gain' without infusing it with passion for other things, like doing an impeccable job, becoming very proficient at what you do - all these are what the Sage would do as opposed to just going for it for monetary gain. The desire for monetary gain is self-propelling and never stops.

 

Manifest purity. I don't think they're talking about good and bad here, not in that sense. The words are looking for purity of character in a different sense, in a sense of intentional self-realization. I can be a witness to the fact that walking this path with serious intent for years does indeed produce a more simple and graceful way of life. It seems to happen naturally. Other things fall away of their own accord.

 

Selfishness and desire. I see this as changing from an inner-directed person to becoming an outer-directed person, grabbing an old phrase from the 60's. If we buy into the idea that all is One, then that person you're standing across from is actually You. When it's looked at from that perspective, it's a lot easier to give someone your sweater because they're cold.

 

Desire. Lessen desire. I think that if we're desiring something to the point of distraction, maybe it's because we're lacking in gratitude for what's already there in front of us, or what we already possess. Desire in and of itself is never fulfilled for very long; there's always the next thing to want. And desire just seems to set up more desire, kind of like an alcoholic taking the first drink. I think the sage would consciously try to eliminate a lot of desire out of his psyche by finding more gratitude.

 

I wonder why it says to abandon learning without worry. It doesn't seem that the two go together. I understand abandoning learning; I think what it means is that thinking our left brain alone, the organized information gatherer, isn't going to cut it. We have to leap into the abyss (Castaneda concept) and trust that there really is a 'magical' component which is accessible with the right brain. The way to get the right brain activated is to self examine our psyche, to question our attitudes in particular.

 

But why 'without worry?' I guess he's saying that you don't have to worry about abandoning learning (in this limited sense) even though nobody else in the world will understand this dynamic. As to my own 'learning', I was a total left brain queen until I had a breakdown some years ago, at which time the right brain necessarily opened on a psychiatrists couch for the first time. The learning all merges together anyway, once both dynamics in the brain are working in concert. I guess we just need to abandon the search for more and more external knowledge; there's a time to just Be and let the inner process begin. Striving for great knowledge will only put this process off, as far as I can tell.