The After Death Question

[Cat Pillar]

I know this can of worms has probably been beaten into glue already, but I wanted to bring it up.

 

For me, the question has always been "does experience end with death?" Many state they have had personal experiences which leave them with no doubt, but personally I expect I'll never know until I actually die.

 

Recently, though, I have been thinking a new question about this issue. And that is..."does it matter?"

 

In other words...should the existence or non-existence of after-death experience be allowed to affect our decisions in life?

 

I'm curious to hear your opinions.

[Aaron]

I know this can of worms has probably been beaten into glue already, but I wanted to bring it up.

 

For me, the question has always been "does experience end with death?" Many state they have had personal experiences which leave them with no doubt, but personally I expect I'll never know until I actually die.

 

Recently, though, I have been thinking a new question about this issue. And that is..."does it matter?"

 

In other words...should the existence or non-existence of after-death experience be allowed to affect our decisions in life?

 

I'm curious to hear your opinions.

 

 

Hello Cat Pillar,

 

I don't think this topic can ever be beaten into glue. I think the question is not only important, but one we all struggle with at some point in our life. There's a reason so many religious sermons remind us constantly of what happens after we die, it's because if they don't we'll start to have questions.

 

For me, I'm one of those people that are certain about what happens, because I did have an experience that assured me of what happens, but even if I did not have this experience I think there are some very basic points that can be made that can grant anyone peace, even if perhaps they don't feel their consciousness will exist after they die.

 

First we are more than our consciousness, we are our hair, our nails, even our lungs. We have this idea that we are passengers in a vehicle, forgetting that we are actually the vehicle. We are not within our bodies, we are our bodies. Our bodies are part of a larger organism, the universe. Much like the bacteria that exist within our stomachs to help us digest food, we play a part in the universe. This part doesn't end when we die, rather death is a part of it.

 

"Ashes to ashes, dust to dust..." in other words, from whence we came, we will return. Taoists believe this too by the way, that we arise from emptiness and return to emptiness. Vedanta takes this a step further and says that everything arises from the same source and because it arises from the same source everything is everything, in other words we are the completeness of the universe. I am you and you are me. If you die and I don't you haven't died. So if this is true what can we make of death? Well it's just a transference of energy in the long run. Our bodies, having served their purpose in one way, serve a different purpose. But if that's so does our consciousness cease to exist once we die? After all isn't our consciousness merely made of cells in the brain?

 

Science seems to think so. You poke one part of the brain and it triggers an emotion, another and your foot itches, that seems to be logical proof that consciousness is contained within the brain, but what about the other things that exists within us?

 

Many religions believe that we are made up of three parts that combined make up the whole, the body, the spirit, and the mind. When we die the body and mind die as well, but the spirit lives on. Science knows that at the time of death we weigh less than we did when we were alive, yet there doesn't seem to be any verifiable proof as to why this happens. I personally believe that the spirit leaves our body and rejoins the immaterial, but you don't have to, because even if you have doubts about this, what this says is that when we die something changes, something that we are not completely certain about.

 

What I will say is this, even if I am not reincarnated, I know that I will continue to exist. My atoms will go on, just as yours will. My consciousness is made up of those atoms, and when those atoms join the rest of the atoms in this universe, I join this universe as well (even though really I'm a part of it now). I'm not so worried about whether I will remember everything I remember now, because that's not the important thing, in fact it's a bit selfish. What I will worry about is how I can be of service to this world while I am here and be thankful that even in death something good can come of me.

 

Aaron

Edited January 24, 2011 by Twinner

[surfingbudda]

I know this can of worms has probably been beaten into glue already, but I wanted to bring it up.

 

For me, the question has always been "does experience end with death?" Many state they have had personal experiences which leave them with no doubt, but personally I expect I'll never know until I actually die.

 

Recently, though, I have been thinking a new question about this issue. And that is..."does it matter?"

 

In other words...should the existence or non-existence of after-death experience be allowed to affect our decisions in life?

 

I'm curious to hear your opinions.

 

Hello Cat Pillar,

For me, I almost know without a shadow of a doubt that experience doesn't end with death, I look at death as another beginning, not an end. Does that mean I look forward to it or worry about, certainly not, I look at death with a neutral viewpoint in that I accept that it will happen when it happens and so be it. I would appreciate spending and enjoying as much time in this life experience as I can and hope to live to a ripe old age, as most people probably wish as well. I recently saw a video online which I could find for you if you wanted, it was a documentary about great Yogis in Tibet. One thing about the video I found interesting was that the especially achieved Yogis were known for choosing their time of death. For example a student of a great Yogi described the event of his master passing. He said that his master, although old, was in great health showed no reason he would be passing anytime soon, however he gathered all his students around and said, "Today is a good day for me to die", so he prepared his final meal with his students and gave each of his students prayers for good fortune and when he was done he simply closed his eyes and tilted his head into a restful state and he passed away. Another instance in the video was when they showed the last great elder Yogi of Tibet who apparently had already done a ceremony of cutting his hair which meant he was preparing to die, but it said that the Dalai Lama asked him to live a little longer to help his people so the great Yogi agreed to live a another year or so to continue helping his people. Also in the video it was noted that when these greatly achieved spiritual masters die it is a common occurrence that their bodies resist decay for weeks or even longer and stay perfectly the same with their bodies still showing life as if they were sleeping. This is just some interesting things I found relevant to your question.

 

To me, even just the simple ability to feel qi proves to me that there is much more to this world than meets the eye. To answer your second question, does it matter to worry about death. No I do not think one should worry about death any more than worry about the future or regret about the past. Simply focus on the NOW which is the only time that were in

[torus693]

If you heart stops beating and you lungs stop breathing for 30 minutes, are you dead?

What if they stopped for only 5 minutes?

Have you ever wakened from a dream, or fallen asleep and suddenly recall what exists

between the two? There is a gap there. A fine line between one kind of experience and the next.

Where is that gap? What does it look like? What do you feel like as you go through it?

What is the 'you' that passes through?

[Sunya]

 

a whole new world...

[3bob]

Death is that which dies, that which knows this does not.

 

Om

[devoid]

I know this can of worms has probably been beaten into glue already, but I wanted to bring it up.

 

For me, the question has always been "does experience end with death?" Many state they have had personal experiences which leave them with no doubt, but personally I expect I'll never know until I actually die.

 

Recently, though, I have been thinking a new question about this issue. And that is..."does it matter?"

 

In other words...should the existence or non-existence of after-death experience be allowed to affect our decisions in life?

 

I'm curious to hear your opinions.

 

Hi Cat Pillar,

 

I think this is a great question and topic post - although it is a question which can only be answered through personal experience or belief system I think it matters a great deal.

 

Here's my take on it coming from my own experience: Our physical senses: touch, smell, sound, taste, sight etc. is subject to our physical organs - without the physical body, such sensory input is simply not available to us. Yet, in my experience, something else allows us to communicate with something else if we still our minds enough - so, people talk about third eyes, energy, vibrations, higher self, spirit bodies, etc. Just like the tao, it is impossible to describe in words and even difficult to sketch or outline - for me experience remains the real transformational element.

 

In other words: if I recount my experiences to you can chose to like them or not, believe or disbelieve them, make up your own mind - yet your own experiences are no matter of liking or believing - instead, they are part of your realty (your personal reality).

[Gauss]

As far as I see it the only way of knowing where one will end up is to practice orthodox cultivation. Only then can one visit the heavens during meditation and as high as one climbs to at the point of death, that is where you will go(and belong) because that is your level.

 

Obviously, if one does not do anything like that one has to focus on either being a good person(provided one believes good is rewarded with good and evil is rewarded with evil) or if one has no faith in anything of afterlife one forgets everything and follows the trends of modern society.

[Marblehead]

I have already spoken to this question so I have little to say. However, to this:

 

And that is..."does it matter?"

 

 

IMO, no, it doesn't matter in the least.

 

Edit to add:

 

Ooopps! Unless you are a Buddhist or a Christian or a Moslem, or ...

Edited January 24, 2011 by Marblehead

[C T]

 

Ooopps! Unless you are a Buddhist or a Christian or a Moslem, or ...

Do i detect a sort of contempt here, Marblehead?

 

What does a statement like this aim to demonstrate? That your wisdom is somehow more advanced than those you have neatly boxed up above? Do you feel more holy after such an utterance?

 

Its words like these, and those who say them, that causes such divisiveness in the world.

 

Think about it.

 

(and please do not attempt to dismiss it as humor, because its not. cant understand why you are not able to get over such narrow views while many others here do actually and sincerely strive to do so. )

 

And to make matters worse, you portray yourself as a philosophical taoist. This is a shame. Perhaps it might do you well to reassess what this term really implies, because i am certain you are not as philosophical as you want to think you are.

 

Apologies if you took offense to this. I could be wrong of course.... maybe this is part of what philosophical Taoism imparts to its adherents, and if this is so, then i have nothing more to say.

[Marblehead]

Do i detect a sort of contempt here, Marblehead?

 

None whatever. I hold no contempt for anyone who believes in life after death. It is just that I believe they are deluded and I will speak to this whenever the subject is brought up for discussion.

 

What does a statement like this aim to demonstrate? That your wisdom is somehow more advanced than those you have neatly boxed up above? Do you feel more holy after such an utterance?

 

A statement like this is intended to cause anyone reading it to cause them to think about why they believe in a concept that has no, not even a shread, of evidence in support of. They only the teachings of those who wish to control others. And I suggest that those who follow are being controlled and limited in their free thinking.

 

Its words like these, and those who say them, that causes such divisiveness in the world.

 

No, I honestly believe you are wrong here. It is words like these that cause people to think about what they believe and why they believe what they believe. Just because someone who some hold in great regard has said something doesn't necessarily make it true. We must always question else we are subject to being mis-led.

 

Think about it.

 

Oh, I thought about it. That is why it was added in an edit. I understand that there are many who believe in life after death. And this is why I pointed out the three that I did as an example. For those, the question of life after death is important. For others it is not.

 

(and please do not attempt to dismiss it as humor, because its not. cant understand why you are not able to get over such narrow views while many others here do actually and sincerely strive to do so. )

 

No, it was not humor. I was serious. My narrow views are a result of my observations of nature. This is one of the most important concepts in Taoist Philosophy. To observe the workings of nature and try to live as close as possible with the processes. To believe in something that has not been observed is only illusion and delusion.

 

However, my views are not narrow by any standard. Sure, many of them do not agree with yours. Does that make me wrong and you right? NO, I think that this only shows that we have different understandings.

 

And I have no problem with others who strive to believe in something that will never be proven. And if it helps them through their life then it is good. But I will not remain a member of this forum and not speak to issues that I feel are illusions and delusion. You should be used to this by now.

 

And to make matters worse, you portray yourself as a philosophical taoist. This is a shame. Perhaps it might do you well to reassess what this term really implies, because i am certain you are not as philosophical as you want to think you are.

 

I am a Philosophical Taoist. You have no right whatever to judge me. You have never had that right nor will you ever have that right. You can judge only yourself. Have you done this recently? It truely is a valuable undertaking. So you go ahead and call yourself whatever you like and I will call myself whatever I like. But please, never think that you have the knowledge or authority to judge others.

 

Apologies if you took offense to this. I could be wrong of course.... maybe this is part of what philosophical Taoism imparts to its adherents, and if this is so, then i have nothing more to say.

 

No apologies needed and I will not apologize for what I said in my above post nor in this one. You have said what you felt needed to be said and I have said the same.

 

I remember recently I said to Ralis that many of his posts were too course and combative. I sometimes present myself in this manner as well. I make no excuses for this. Whatever I say I use the best words I can come up with at that point in time. I have no intention of presenting only flowers, there will be thorns and the dirty roots as will.

 

And so, back to the subject matter, no, the question of life after death to an Atheist has no value whatever. However, it does to a Buddhist, Christian, Moslem, ...

[RongzomFan]

If you want to gain personal experience with the fact that consciousness can exist separately from the physcial body take up OBE.

 

My understanding from Robert Bruce, people fall into an extremely realistic lucid dream after death. It is so realistic that people do not know they died. You could actually be dead right now LOL. And this you can also prove to yourself as well. It is called a WILD...Wake induced lucid dream. A WILD is as realistic as reality.

Edited January 24, 2011 by alwayson

[Jetsun]

I know this can of worms has probably been beaten into glue already, but I wanted to bring it up.

 

For me, the question has always been "does experience end with death?" Many state they have had personal experiences which leave them with no doubt, but personally I expect I'll never know until I actually die.

 

Recently, though, I have been thinking a new question about this issue. And that is..."does it matter?"

 

In other words...should the existence or non-existence of after-death experience be allowed to affect our decisions in life?

 

I'm curious to hear your opinions.

 

I think that the fact that we don't really know what is going to happen gives us an urgency or motivation in our life to make the most of our time and fulfil our potential while we can

[forestofclarity]

For Marblehead, who says there isn't a "shred" of evidence:

 

Lancet NDE Study

 

Dr. von Lommel, as many others before him, became convinced that mind does not depend on matter after conducting his NDE study on patients in the cardiac ward.

 

What has not been proven is the modern assumption that matter is primary and mind is secondary, and that one causes the other. Our direct experience would suggest the opposite.

[3bob]

The Day Begins

---------------------------

Cold hearted orb that rules the night,

Removes the colours from our sight,

Red is gray and yellow white,

But we decide which is right.

And which is an illusion?

Pinprick holes in a colourless sky,

Let insipid figures of light pass by,

The mighty light of ten thousand suns,

Challenges infinity and is soon gone.

Night time, to some a brief interlude,

To others the fear of solitude.

Brave Helios wake up your steads,

Bring the warmth the countryside needs

 

from the Moody Blues

[Marblehead]

For Marblehead, who says there isn't a "shred" of evidence:

 

Lancet NDE Study

 

Dr. von Lommel, as many others before him, became convinced that mind does not depend on matter after conducting his NDE study on patients in the cardiac ward.

 

What has not been proven is the modern assumption that matter is primary and mind is secondary, and that one causes the other. Our direct experience would suggest the opposite.

 

Hi Forest,

 

Thanks for the response.

 

I read the article. I especially liked this: "... most patients who have been clinically dead should report one."

 

That is so funny. Clinically dead? In other words, they were in a coma but were not really dead, their brain continued to function and there thoughts went to the knowledge that was already there and I would suggest that everyone who had a NDE was someone who believed in life after death and those who did not have one were those who did not believe in life after death.

 

I have been near death three times during my lifetime and I never once had an NDE. I just knew that I was in deep shit.

 

There is no mind without matter; mind is a subset of brain. I say this with 100% confidence. I have no intention of trying to change anyone's beliefs in this regard. I only present questions for consideration. What others believe is none of my business. But I feel obligated to ask others to ask why they believe what they believe.

[Marblehead]

Hi Bob,

 

I like the Moody Blues. I got burned out on them a few years ago and have been avoiding them until I am inspired to listen to their music again. I think I have six of their LPs.

 

I don't understand where the lyrics fit into this conversation though. (Hehehe. I am a little slow sometimes.) Care to enlighten me? Thanks in advance.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I think it is very important, at least for me it is. I want to end the cycle of rebirth and never be reborn again. That's my primary goal for life.

 

I know this can of worms has probably been beaten into glue already, but I wanted to bring it up.

 

For me, the question has always been "does experience end with death?" Many state they have had personal experiences which leave them with no doubt, but personally I expect I'll never know until I actually die.

 

Recently, though, I have been thinking a new question about this issue. And that is..."does it matter?"

 

In other words...should the existence or non-existence of after-death experience be allowed to affect our decisions in life?

 

I'm curious to hear your opinions.

[Marblehead]

I think it is very important, at least for me it is. I want to end the cycle of rebirth and never be reborn again. That's my primary goal for life.

 

Thanks for your response More_Pie_Guy. Makes this discussion less one-sided.

[3bob]

A couple of quotes from the Tao Teh Ching:

 

"...And he who dies but perishes not enjoys real longevity". chapter 33

 

"...to be heavenly is to be one with Tao;

To be one with Tao is to abide forever

Such a one will be safe and whole

Even after the dissolution of his body." chapter 16

[3bob]

Hi Bob,

 

I like the Moody Blues. I got burned out on them a few years ago and have been avoiding them until I am inspired to listen to their music again. I think I have six of their LPs.

 

I don't understand where the lyrics fit into this conversation though. (Hehehe. I am a little slow sometimes.) Care to enlighten me? Thanks in advance.

 

Hello MH,

I think the following two lines from the song have some bearing on the subject:

 

"But we decide which is right.

And which is an illusion?"

 

Om

[Marblehead]

Hello MH,

I think the following two lines from the song have some bearing on the subject:

 

"But we decide which is right.

And which is an illusion?"

 

Om

 

Good. Thanks. And yes, I would agree that this is a valid statement and worth considering in this discussion.

[Aaron]

I have already spoken to this question so I have little to say. However, to this:

 

 

 

IMO, no, it doesn't matter in the least.

 

Edit to add:

 

Ooopps! Unless you are a Buddhist or a Christian or a Moslem, or ...

 

 

Hello MH,

 

I think Cow Tao made a valid point, this really wasn't necessary, it's antagonistic and shows a lack of respect, almost bigotry. I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but when you make blanket statements that belittle or demean others, that's what it comes across as. In the end if it really didn't matter, you wouldn't have made the second comment. Apparently it does matter to you.

 

Aaron

Edited January 24, 2011 by Twinner

[3bob]

I think it is very important, at least for me it is. I want to end the cycle of rebirth and never be reborn again. That's my primary goal for life.

 

Imo being reborn or not is not the primary problem, but not being free is; notice in the Tibetan wheel there is a depiction of a Buddha in every realm yet that Buddha is still free even those realms is he not?

 

Om

[Marblehead]

A couple of quotes from the Tao Teh Ching:

 

"...And he who dies but perishes not enjoys real longevity". chapter 33

 

And I will suggest that there are many different translations and interpretations of this line and especially the word "perishes". Select the one that feels good to you (you meaning everyone).

 

"...to be heavenly is to be one with Tao;

To be one with Tao is to abide forever

Such a one will be safe and whole

Even after the dissolution of his body." chapter 16

 

I have never had a problem with this. We all (even the unheavenly) return to whence we came. Dust to dust, you know.