The After Death Question

[Aaron]

None whatever. I hold no contempt for anyone who believes in life after death. It is just that I believe they are deluded and I will speak to this whenever the subject is brought up for discussion.[/qoute]

 

[qoute]

And so, back to the subject matter, no, the question of life after death to an Atheist has no value whatever. However, it does to a Buddhist, Christian, Moslem, ...

 

I think you're making blanket statements again, without really understanding what you're attacking. Why do you believe life after death matters to Buddhists? Why do you believe it matters to Christians? Why do you believe it matters to Moslems? You're lumping them all in the same group, so is it for the same reason, or is it just convenient? Where is your proof that these philosophies place more emphasis on what happens after one dies than when one is alive? Or is that not important, rather it's the idea that someone would be so ignorant as to believe in life after death?

 

I really don't think you have a valid point here. I don't believe you're a bigot, but when I hear you say stuff like this I worry what others might think.

 

Aaron

Edited January 24, 2011 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Hello MH,

 

I think Cow Tao made a valid point, this really wasn't necessary, it's antagonistic and shows a lack of respect, almost bigotry. I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but when you make blanket statements that belittle or demean others, that's what it comes across as. In the end if it really didn't matter, you wouldn't have made the second comment. Apparently it does matter to you.

 

Aaron

 

Yes, CowTao had a valid point. And I responded to it as best I could. My comment was necessary in my mind and it is my mind that I operate from, not CowTao's nor yours.

 

There was no antagonistic intentions included in my post. I was simply stating the truth as I understand it. Others may think I was being off the wall but that is their right to feel such emotions.

 

Bigotry? You should look that word up in the dictionary so that you fully understand its meaning before using it on someone who has an opinion that he lives by.

 

Yes, I made a generalized statement. But where do you or anyone else see any intentions to belittle or demean others? What you see is coming from your own mind, not mine.

 

Everything matters to me but then nothing matters. That's just the way it is. And not only for me but for every person who is living on this planet at this moment in time as well as everyone who has ever lived on this planet. Life goes on and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

So I will suggest that if anyone was offended by my earlier posts they should question why they were offended. To believe what we believe without being offended by anything anyone else says is a sign of being secure with your beliefs. Anything less one should question why it is.

 

Fear of questioning is a fault. Fear of accepting the answers is also a fault.

[3bob]

And I will suggest that there are many different translations and interpretations of this line and especially the word "perishes". Select the one that feels good to you (you meaning everyone).

 

I have never had a problem with this. We all (even the unheavenly) return to whence we came. Dust to dust, you know.

 

Ok, but ime "dust to dust" is only indicative of permutations in flux, (or some kind of flux-capcitor dealy bob) while the "changeless" (as also mentioned at the end of TTC 52) or Spirit unto Spirit can not be known as dust to dust or as any other thing. (or duality, yet it knows itself)

 

Om

Edited January 24, 2011 by 3bob

[Jetsun]

I think it is very important, at least for me it is. I want to end the cycle of rebirth and never be reborn again. That's my primary goal for life.

 

I have been trying to understand the Buddhist view of after death but things don't seem to properly make sense to me. If we are never born and all that we are is a result of continual causes and conditions then there is no death as such or we are continually being born and dying each moment, but then what is is that is reincarnated? I have heard people say it is your karma which is reincarnated but what is it that keeps your karma together to take form in a newly born body rather than being scattered for instance in a different number of bodies if there is no soul or self?

[Marblehead]

I think you're making blanket statements again, without really understanding what you're attacking. Why do you believe life after death matters to Buddhists? Why do you believe it matters to Christians? Why do you believe it matters to Moslems? You're lumping them all in the same group, so is it for the same reason, or is it just convenient? Where is your proof that these philosophies place more emphasis on what happens after one dies than when one is alive? Or is that not important, rather it's the idea that someone would be so ignorant as to believe in life after death?

 

I really don't think you have a valid point here. I don't believe you're a bigot, but when I hear you say stuff like this I worry what others might think.

 

Aaron

 

I am not attacking anyone or anything. I am simple stating my understanding. I included in my post the words "Buddhist", "Christian" and "Moslem" because these belief systems believe is some form of life after death. Yes, I was generalizing because I did not want to do the research and include every belief system that has some form of concept of life after death.

 

I do not like the way you suggested that I might think that poeple who believe in life after death are ignorant. That word is yours and not mine. I have never included anything in any of my posts in this thread that suggest that anyone is ignorant nor have I said a single word that ever remotely implies belittling or demeaning others. Please stop reading unsaid words into what I have said.

 

It doesn't matter if you think I have a valid point. I think I have and I have every right to express it just as everyone else who is a member of this forum has.

 

I am glad that you do not believe me to be a bigot. Anyone else who reads my posts has every right to question anything I say. I have never, nor will I ever, put anyone's questions to me off nor will I ever think that they are trying to give me a hard time.

 

If my further expressions of my understandings help to clarify what I have said then good, if not then that is a fault of mine, not of the one who is questioning me.

 

And once again, I have never seen any kind of 'proof' of such a thing as life after death so I will always question that concept whenever it is presented in public. Maybe one day someone will present to me sufficient 'proof' that will cause me to reconsider my understandings. Maybe not.

[Marblehead]

Ok, but ime "dust to dust" is only indicative of permutations in flux, (or some kind of flux-capcitor dealy bob) while the "changeless" (as also mentioned at the end of TTC 52) or Spirit unto Spirit can not be known as dust to dust or as any other thing. (or duality, yet it knows itself)

 

Om

 

Hehehe. Okay. How about "all thing experience transmutation"?

 

There is only one "changeless". I refer to this as Tao. No, I cannot define Tao. I can speak a little of the processes though. Birth and death are the same. That's written somewhere in the TTC. There are no dualities outside the mind of man.

 

Your "Spirit to Spirit" is close. How about "Energy to Energy"? (The word "Spirit" has too many connotations.)

[Mokona]

My personal experienced confirmed for me life after death, but it matters to me in an abstract fashion, as energy work and meditation allow me to experience that "other" side to things and enjoy benefits for this side too.

[Marblehead]

I have been trying to understand the Buddhist view of after death but things don't seem to properly make sense to me. If we are never born and all that we are is a result of continual causes and conditions then there is no death as such or we are continually being born and dying each moment, but then what is is that is reincarnated? I have heard people say it is your karma which is reincarnated but what is it that keeps your karma together to take form in a newly born body rather than being scattered for instance in a different number of bodies if there is no soul or self?

 

Great questions Jetsun. Sadly, I have no answers for you. But keep asking the questions. That's important!!!!!

[3bob]

"...Breathe deep the gathering gloom,

Watch lights fade from every room.

Bedsitter people look back and lament,

Another day's useless energy spent.

Impassioned lovers wrestle as one,

Lonely man cries for love and has none.

New mother picks up and suckles her son,

Senior citizens wish they were young.

Cold hearted orb that rules the night,

Removes the colours from our sight.

Red is grey and yellow white.

But we decide which is right.

And which is an illusion?"

 

.

Edited January 24, 2011 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

My personal experienced confirmed for me life after death, but it matters to me in an abstract fashion, as energy work and meditation allow me to experience that "other" side to things and enjoy benefits for this side too.

 

Very nice addition to the discussion. Chuang Tzu discussed this question in great depth but he never gave us a definative answer although he did suggest toward his opinion.

 

What you spoke to is the concept of living in both 'yo' (the physical) and 'wu' (the spiritual) simultaneously.

[Marblehead]

"...Breathe deep the gathering gloom,

Watch lights fade from every room.

Bedsitter people look back and lament,

Another day's useless energy spent.

Impassioned lovers wrestle as one,

Lonely man cries for love and has none.

New mother picks up and suckles her son,

Senior citizens wish they were young.

Cold hearted orb that rules the night,

Removes the colours from our sight.

Red is grey and yellow white.

But we decide which is right.

And which is an illusion?"

 

.

 

Yes, breathe deep and understand that these are only words we are throwing around.

 

Ha! Senior citizens wish they were young.

 

I finally got over that one. It's a sad realization at first. Knowing that we are going to get feeble (if we are lucky enough to do so) and will die.

 

No, I will not lament any more. I will live until I die. If it is too cold to do anything outside I will sit here at the computer and have discussions with people who enjoy discussing the same concepts I enjoy discussing even if we are totally in disagreement with each other.

 

So I will keep my reds red and my yellows yellow and understand that the sun will continue to go 'round and 'round (you know what I mean) and enjoy all the beautiful colors of reality, etc., until the day I no longer capable of doing so and that will be the day of my death.

[Marblehead]

Anyhow. Thanks for the discussion y'all.

 

Keep going if that is your wish and I will catch up later. I have some work to do on one of my sword scabbards and have to go buy some supplies before I can do the work.

[exorcist_1699]

The point is how we define death: stop of breathing , heart beat or the brain is having no activities at all / not emitting any electrical pulse ?

 

However, in some Taoist/Buddhist practice, even all the above-mentioned phenomena arise, they do not necessarily lead to people 's death. On the contrary, a very clear mind can still station there and take charge of the situation.

In fact , we can deliberately let ourselves experience death or near death many times we want...

 

It seems a much clear definition of death should be :

 

Besides those above-mentioned , the soul who is previously in charge of the physical body, now leaves it and never returns again .

 

Concretely speaking ,there can be two status :

 

1) Because our body is seriously damaged ,so qi is no longer able to stay in it; and, accompanying the leave of qi (yang) , our soul (yin ) is forced to leave...

Or, because of aging, the qi that sustains our life is gradually diminishing and to a certain point , it no longer can grasp the soul..

 

So death comes to us in a passive way , and is resulted from the separation of yin and yang .

 

Or ,

 

2) We deliberately polish and manipulate our qi with the force of our mind so that at certain stage, we can freely let our soul leave the physical body for a while and then return. As the foundation of our physical life, qi, is still in our body, so the leave of the soul does not necessarily lead to death unless the soul get lost and not returns...

 

The significance of Taoist qi practice is that it provides us a way of testing death and revival on ourselves...and , to me , its theoretical framework , comparing to those provided by Buddhism , is clearer and more coherent .

[Otis]

I want to end the cycle of rebirth and never be reborn again. That's my primary goal for life.

This concept is utterly alien to me. Why is that your "primary goal in life"?

[Otis]

My personal experienced confirmed for me life after death...

How so?

[forestofclarity]

You're misreading the article. If NDEs have a physical cause, they should be more prevalent. The brain was no longer receiving oxygen. Typically, brains without oxygen become confused and scattered, with little to no memory. NDErs report the opposite. Also, NDE people who have OBEs are able to describe in detail medical procedures far more accurately than a control group.

 

Also, NDEs share a lot in common with other NDE experiences, unlike hallucinations. NDEs are also significant in that they lack traditional religious imagery, and in fact many religious people become non-religious or spiritual after their NDE.

 

A lot of doctors, like the doctor in this study, went into the study as skeptics and come out as believers. Some of this has to do with stunning anecdotal evidence as described above.

 

You say mind is a subset of the brain, but there is no evidence to back this up. A lot of people confuse correlation with causation. For example, in a television set, the set must be in working order to play a program. But to say the set creates the program is wrong.

 

Not to mention that neuroplasticity has punched a big hole in the brain as epiphenomenon theory. Now we have the movie changing the projector.

 

In fact, the brain is a mental object and can only be known when there is a mind. Consider this: Advaita and the Brain It is almost like saying the projector in the movie creates the movie.

 

No area is black and white, scientifically, philosophically, or otherwise.

 

 

Hi Forest,

 

Thanks for the response.

 

I read the article. I especially liked this: "... most patients who have been clinically dead should report one."

 

That is so funny. Clinically dead? In other words, they were in a coma but were not really dead, their brain continued to function and there thoughts went to the knowledge that was already there and I would suggest that everyone who had a NDE was someone who believed in life after death and those who did not have one were those who did not believe in life after death.

 

I have been near death three times during my lifetime and I never once had an NDE. I just knew that I was in deep shit.

 

There is no mind without matter; mind is a subset of brain. I say this with 100% confidence. I have no intention of trying to change anyone's beliefs in this regard. I only present questions for consideration. What others believe is none of my business. But I feel obligated to ask others to ask why they believe what they believe.

Edited January 24, 2011 by forestofemptiness

[Marblehead]

Hi Exorcist,

 

I like that a lot. Thanks for joining in.

 

Concretely speaking ,there can be two status :

 

1) Because our body is seriously damaged ,so qi is no longer able to stay in it; and, accompanying the leave of qi (yang) , our soul (yin ) is forced to leave...

Or, because of aging, the qi that sustains our life is gradually diminishing and to a certain point , it no longer can grasp the soul..

 

So death comes to us in a passive way , and is resulted from the separation of yin and yang .

 

Or ,

 

2) We deliberately polish and manipulate our qi with the force of our mind so that at certain stage, we can freely let our soul leave the physical body for a while and then return. As the foundation of our physical life, qi, is still in our body, so the leave of the soul does not necessarily lead to death unless the soul get lost and not returns...

 

The significance of Taoist qi practice is that it provides us a way of testing death and revival on ourselves...and , to me , its theoretical framework , ...

[Marblehead]

You're misreading the article.

 

Hehehe. And you, Sir, are reading words into the article that are not there.

 

No, I didn't misread the article. You may not agree with my understanding of it but that is a different matter.

[devoid]

Hi Marblehead,

 

Firstly, sorry for addressing you by responding to my own post - I know this is kind of tacky

 

Yet given the discussion since I wrote it this morning I think we have a prime example on pages 2 and 3 of this thread of discussing belief over experience: In summary I tried to say that unless you experience what is being talked about it becomes a discussion of belief.

 

Until few years ago I was very much in line with your train of thought as presented in this thread - then I experienced a number of things that made me realize that there is more available than meets the eye.

 

I follow no religion, yet due to experience I am absolutely convinced about dead people existing around us (lets just call them souls to try to prevent unnecessary gory imagery ) - why, because I have experienced it first hand and was later able to validate my experience through others (in their flesh and blood ) who would probably also think I'm a mad hatter if I told them about my experiences - instead we left it at them being puzzled that I could say the things I said about somebody who died decades before I was born.

 

With this I simply want to add that I find your insisted scepticism both healthy and entertaining - healthy, because you will apparently not accept anything somebody else tells you without first validating it on your own and entertaining, because of your non-stop insistence on pursuing the dialogue in this thread.

 

So, let me end off with this: When you one day check out from this life and realize that it doesn't end that easily, feel free to look me up to say goodbye - I can't guarantee it, but with the intent of wanting to say goodbye to devoid from the taobums site should probably be enough. If that happens, I'll happily show you around a bit. For now, I hope you can simply appreciate my proposal as benign token of cordial goodwill, even though you choose not to believe a word of it for now.

 

Hi Cat Pillar,

 

I think this is a great question and topic post - although it is a question which can only be answered through personal experience or belief system I think it matters a great deal.

 

Here's my take on it coming from my own experience: Our physical senses: touch, smell, sound, taste, sight etc. is subject to our physical organs - without the physical body, such sensory input is simply not available to us. Yet, in my experience, something else allows us to communicate with something else if we still our minds enough - so, people talk about third eyes, energy, vibrations, higher self, spirit bodies, etc. Just like the tao, it is impossible to describe in words and even difficult to sketch or outline - for me experience remains the real transformational element.

 

In other words: if I recount my experiences to you can chose to like them or not, believe or disbelieve them, make up your own mind - yet your own experiences are no matter of liking or believing - instead, they are part of your realty (your personal reality).

[surfingbudda]

Hey Cat Pillar,

I believe you would really enjoy reading the book Destiny of Souls by Michael Newton. Michael Newton is a soul hypno-therapist, as in he induces an extremely deep trance state in his participant and brings the person deeper into their life to recall their earliest memories, then memories in the womb, then even deeper before life when they were simply a soul (energy) and then deeper into their previous life, ect. Dr. Newton has decades of research into this and the very interesting thing is, is that no matter who the participant is, no matter what they're belief of the afterlife or spirituality is they always give almost identical accounts of their soul journey's. Michael Newton says that this kind of soul past life regression he does is very therapeutic as everyone comes back from it with the knowledge of knowing they are more than just a body of physical flesh and they now know who they truly are as beings of immortal energy. I would definitely recommend reading it as it was very uplifting for me to read and really does take a big weight off your chest if your wondering or worrying about death. Heres a link for the book if your interested My link

Edited January 24, 2011 by surfingbudda

[Marblehead]

Hehehe.

 

Hi Devoid,

 

Nice post regardless of what vehicle you used to get to it.

 

And I make you this promise: When I am no more and find that I still am I will return to this world (using my free will) and become a member of this forum using the screen name Marblehead2 (I'm sure no one else would take that name before I return if I do return) and I will share the good news with everyone here.

 

What a feature in the cap of so many here that would be!!!!!

 

And while I do understand that there are many who believe in what you spoke to and all I can say is that if it helps those people through their life then it is good.

 

All I am suggesting is that we ask the tough questions before accepting someone else's declaration of the 'truth'.

 

But then, does that even matter? Not really. If a particular belief system makes us feel good why would we even want to ask the tough questions?

[3bob]

Hehehe.

 

Hi Devoid,

 

Nice post regardless of what vehicle you used to get to it.

 

And I make you this promise: When I am no more and find that I still am I will return to this world (using my free will) and become a member of this forum using the screen name Marblehead2 (I'm sure no one else would take that name before I return if I do return) and I will share the good news with everyone here.

 

What a feature in the cap of so many here that would be!!!!!

 

And while I do understand that there are many who believe in what you spoke to and all I can say is that if it helps those people through their life then it is good.

 

All I am suggesting is that we ask the tough questions before accepting someone else's declaration of the 'truth'.

 

But then, does that even matter? Not really. If a particular belief system makes us feel good why would we even want to ask the tough questions?

 

because feeling good is very fleeting, besides no else's truth is enough.

 

Om

 

ps. For instance if or when I get my old Chevy with 178k rebuilt I'll feel good until something else on it will need work.

Edited January 24, 2011 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

because feeling good is very fleeting, besides no else's truth is enough.

 

Om

 

ps. For instance if or when I get my old Chevy with 178k rebuilt I'll feel good until something else on it will need work.

 

 

See? That's basically what I have been saying. We need to have our own truths so we have no inner conflicts.

 

Well, I hope you are able to feel good with your future rebuilt Chevy. (I gave up my Chevy for a Toyota.)

[3bob]

See? That's basically what I have been saying. We need to have our own truths so we have no inner conflicts.

 

Well, I hope you are able to feel good with your future rebuilt Chevy. (I gave up my Chevy for a Toyota.)

 

Righto, if I only had a dollar for every 25 cents I've spent on repairs I'd be pretty well off

 

"We need to have our own truths so we have no inner conflicts", MH.

 

Problemo is that if one had their own truth counter to Tao they would soon cease to exist. (paraphrase per the T.T.C., chapter 30)

 

"See? That's basically what I have been saying". Ok if this is the case then it would seem that you would have no hard and fast rules as to what "delusion" is?

[Cat Pillar]

Wow, don't check in for a day and suddenly there's four pages! Thanks for the great replies and discussions, everyone! I'll get to responding either later tonight or tomorrow.