The After Death Question

[Tree Stump]

I'm drawn towards the approach in pennyofheaven's post; just being present in the now. Regardless of what comes after, I'd like to focus on what's here and now. Letting the unresolved question create anxiety is unnecessary stress.

 

One could argue that after-death (eschatological) concerns are the root of all religions and probably all philosophy.

 

They each try to find something eternal with which we can identify with, and through identifying with it we somehow merge with it and live forever. That's the theory anyway. Be that the Tao, the dharmakaya, the risen Christ, God, our offspring, fame or other legacies... we all try to cling on to something that lasts forever in the knowledge that we ourselves do not.

 

I think that's mostly because it's impossible for us to exist without knowing that our existence will continue. But that also depends on what you consider existence to be in the first place.

 

If you cling on to your own experience only (the 'here and now'), then whether you are actually experiencing or gone, doesn't matter so much does it? A little short sighted perhaps?

 

If you cling on to a certain view of the world - an ideal of some kind - then your participation in creating that ideal would probably be your 'salvation'. I think for many progressives this is the case.

 

If you cling on to a view of the world from insight - e.g. Buddhism - then you must must consider whether that insight is truly representative of full existence, or is it just a shadow of it. Will your after-death existence truly exist the way you do, or are you in fact chasing mortality?

 

If you cling on to the actual world and its underlying processes, such as the Tao or natural law, then you can find peace purely in contemplation and living freely, knowing that the spirit within you will continue on after your individual self has had its turn. This is probably more of a conservative view. Reminding yourself of its eternal existence by observing others and nature will provide you some comfort of immortality, and perhaps the hope you need to live each day. Hope is really all we need.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

- TS

Edited January 27, 2011 by Tree Stump

[3bob]

The really real "now" includes the past and the future, for the past and the future only exist under the One and the One is already now.

 

Om

[Marblehead]

And I thought this thread was dead.

 

It has been afforded a new life.

 

Cheeezze!!!! That sounds like Buddhist cycles of life!

[RongzomFan]

Robert Bruce on the Afterlife:

 

http://blog.astraldynamics.com/2009/05/26/the-afterlife/

[Marblehead]

Robert Bruce on the Afterlife:

 

http://blog.astraldynamics.com/2009/05/26/the-afterlife/

 

Of course, we all know that I do not accept this in any form.

 

But he has a right to his understanding.

[Cat Pillar]

Hello Tree Stump,

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

If you cling on to your own experience only (the 'here and now'), then whether you are actually experiencing or gone, doesn't matter so much does it? A little short sighted perhaps?

 

I've never really thought of being in the present as any form of "clinging." I've always envisioned it as more of a natural flow unclouded by programmed response or beliefs about how things should be. Could you clarify what is short-sighted about this?

 

If you cling on to the actual world and its underlying processes, such as the Tao or natural law, then you can find peace purely in contemplation and living freely, knowing that the spirit within you will continue on after your individual self has had its turn. This is probably more of a conservative view. Reminding yourself of its eternal existence by observing others and nature will provide you some comfort of immortality, and perhaps the hope you need to live each day. Hope is really all we need.

 

Isn't being present the same as "clinging" to the actual world? I'm not sure how abiding in natural law and being present are different. Perhaps we're using different definitions.

 

And I thought this thread was dead.

 

It has been afforded a new life.

 

Taoist Thread Necromancy is a sacred and ancient art. Do not question its power!

[Tree Stump]

Hi Cat Pillar,

Isn't being present the same as "clinging" to the actual world? I'm not sure how abiding in natural law and being present are different. Perhaps we're using different definitions.

To be conscious is to will, and to will is to cling, no? The question is what we cling to, because when we give up our will we may as well be dead.

 

In my view, experience-alone is short sighted because it focuses purely on the immediate senses without any concern for the origin of those feelings. It can be superficial. We may as well be rocks weathering the elements.

 

Experience coupled with insight into natural law seems to be a richer way of living. Looking deeply into your experiences to see their origin, validate their authenticity - are they consistent with the eternal natural law? Or are they born from abstract ideals that are purely self-serving and have no real existence?

 

The way I see it, the beauty of humanity is that we are almost like the Tao's mirror: we exist to experience all of life, to witness the wonder of existence. Confronted with that we see our origin and our eternal destiny, in some small way we are able to identify with the Tao. And in that lies some comfort of our true immortality.

 

What you call 'being present' can be either, but of course (and I'm sure you would agree) we shouldn't ever exclude the past and future, but rather see everything as one process.

 

- TS

[Cat Pillar]

What you call 'being present' can be either, but of course (and I'm sure you would agree) we shouldn't ever exclude the past and future, but rather see everything as one process.

 

I agree, for practical reasons we can't completely ignore the past and the future. But I'm sure you would agree that we should not dwell in the past or future either.

 

In my view, experience-alone is short sighted because it focuses purely on the immediate senses without any concern for the origin of those feelings. It can be superficial. We may as well be rocks weathering the elements.

 

Experience coupled with insight into natural law seems to be a richer way of living. Looking deeply into your experiences to see their origin, validate their authenticity - are they consistent with the eternal natural law? Or are they born from abstract ideals that are purely self-serving and have no real existence?

 

The way I see it, the beauty of humanity is that we are almost like the Tao's mirror: we exist to experience all of life, to witness the wonder of existence. Confronted with that we see our origin and our eternal destiny, in some small way we are able to identify with the Tao. And in that lies some comfort of our true immortality.

 

Well, I still don't grasp what eternal natural law is, so it's hard for me to make comparisons to it from my experience. Maybe once I've been cultivating for awhile I'll have a better grasp of these concepts.

[Tree Stump]

I agree, for practical reasons we can't completely ignore the past and the future. But I'm sure you would agree that we should not dwell in the past or future either.

Right, but I don't think it's a matter of practicality. We have to live holistically.

 

For example. When I act, I am acting in the present. But I should also understand what allows and causes me to act, and the consequence of my action. This, I think, is living deeply.

 

It seems simple but if instead I disregard the consequence, or if I act without understanding the cause, or if I focus on the cause without acting - then these are all misbalanced and then we are clinging onto an incomplete abstraction of reality. This is what causes problems.

 

When we experience anything, we should consider its cause and origin, and be grateful for it. We should cherish it as something of impermanence, something temporal, and entrust its future only to the Tao - and not to any other idea.

 

This kind of contemplation doesn't even have to be that difficult. Like when we utter 'thank you' we're acknowledging that what we have comes from another (the past), we're acknowledging its value as something that we need (the future), and so in that simple 'thank you' we could be contemplating the Tao. Showing respect to others and everything is another example.

 

Children seem to get this naturally. They're in constant wonder of everything, they truly cherish life, they understand their dependency, and yet they trust deeply to be guided. I think this filial love should be a model of the relationship we should have with nature, and the Tao Te Ching itself mentions this (chapter 28).

 

Anyway, my point is that it's that kind of contemplation that truly answers the 'after death' question... When we understand who we are (where we come from), we realize our true identity.. Say thank you, live deeply and live forever!

 

- TS

[Cat Pillar]

Right, but I don't think it's a matter of practicality. We have to live holistically.

 

For example. When I act, I am acting in the present. But I should also understand what allows and causes me to act, and the consequence of my action. This, I think, is living deeply.

 

It seems simple but if instead I disregard the consequence, or if I act without understanding the cause, or if I focus on the cause without acting - then these are all misbalanced and then we are clinging onto an incomplete abstraction of reality. This is what causes problems.

 

That sounds like a great approach to life. I get where you're coming from on this, and can't say I disagree.

 

When we experience anything, we should consider its cause and origin, and be grateful for it. We should cherish it as something of impermanence, something temporal, and entrust its future only to the Tao - and not to any other idea.

 

This kind of contemplation doesn't even have to be that difficult. Like when we utter 'thank you' we're acknowledging that what we have comes from another (the past), we're acknowledging its value as something that we need (the future), and so in that simple 'thank you' we could be contemplating the Tao. Showing respect to others and everything is another example.

 

Children seem to get this naturally. They're in constant wonder of everything, they truly cherish life, they understand their dependency, and yet they trust deeply to be guided. I think this filial love should be a model of the relationship we should have with nature, and the Tao Te Ching itself mentions this (chapter 28).

 

Anyway, my point is that it's that kind of contemplation that truly answers the 'after death' question... When we understand who we are (where we come from), we realize our true identity.. Say thank you, live deeply and live forever!

 

I like this. Although, I'm curious how this leads into understanding who we are and what our true identity is. That is the part I do not understand. Does it attract an awakening experience of some kind? That question of course reveals an assumption, which is understanding comes as a result of what I would term a "realization event."

[Marblehead]

Taoist Thread Necromancy is a sacred and ancient art. Do not question its power!

 

 

Hehehe. Gotcha'.

[Tree Stump]

I like this. Although, I'm curious how this leads into understanding who we are and what our true identity is. That is the part I do not understand. Does it attract an awakening experience of some kind? That question of course reveals an assumption, which is understanding comes as a result of what I would term a "realization event."

 

Well, my existence didn't spring out of nowhere. I was born of my parents, grew on the nourishment of food, learned from experiences with others. Every part of my whole existence is one big 'thank you' if I only recognize it that way. In other words, my very being is from others. That is all that I am. That is the awakening that we need.

 

Sure I may think I create who I am, that I choose who I am. But really isn't that just acting? Who am I really?

 

It seems to me that identity is critical to any discussion of immortality. If you identify with something that is eternal, then the 'you' that you care about will surely live on in that. And there is only one truly eternal existence, we are part of it - we are it, if we just recognize that.

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

Well, my existence didn't spring out of nowhere. I was born of my parents, grew on the nourishment of food, learned from experiences with others. Every part of my whole existence is one big 'thank you' if I only recognize it that way. In other words, my very being is from others. That is all that I am. That is the awakening that we need.

 

Sure I may think I create who I am, that I choose who I am. But really isn't that just acting? Who am I really?

 

- TS

 

Nicely stated, I think. I have argued both sides of this concept. (I do lean toward free will though. We become our thoughts, or something like that.)

[Tree Stump]

Nicely stated, I think. I have argued both sides of this concept. (I do lean toward free will though. We become our thoughts, or something like that.)

 

Hi marble!

 

I agree that 'we can become our thoughts', so to speak. And that's a valid position to hold. But personally I don't think that is a good thing, sorry

 

There is existence, the 'Tao' if you will, and then there are abstract ideas. If you become your ideas then you're basically an Idealist (from philosophical idealism, which stems from Platonic thought). These ideas are abstract in that they're not linked to existence, they're not natural. What basis of reality do they have? Do you want to reduce yourself to an idea?

 

IMO the great enemies of the Tao are shortsightedness and abstract ideals. They explain those evils such as hedonism, tyranny, socialism and capitalism and other idolatory. We are indeed free, free to find ourselves or free to destroy ourselves. True freedom, happiness and contentment comes from living deeply - stepping 'into the process' as I've said before, not imagining a new one. That makes us truly free because it opens us up to eternity. Ideas can just close us in, lock us up, and take away our lifeline.

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

Hi marble!

 

I agree that 'we can become our thoughts', so to speak. And that's a valid position to hold. But personally I don't think that is a good thing, sorry

 

Yeah. I can deal with both sides. Just have no desire to go into that discussion again right now. But I do mostly agree with what you said. I don't even have any place to go - I am exactly where I am supposed to be.

[Tree Stump]

Yeah. I can deal with both sides. Just have no desire to go into that discussion again right now. But I do mostly agree with what you said. I don't even have any place to go - I am exactly where I am supposed to be.

 

No worries my friend, 'no place to go' is precisely it... sounds like that Friday feeling...

 

- TS

[Cat Pillar]

Well, my existence didn't spring out of nowhere. I was born of my parents, grew on the nourishment of food, learned from experiences with others. Every part of my whole existence is one big 'thank you' if I only recognize it that way. In other words, my very being is from others. That is all that I am. That is the awakening that we need.

 

Sure I may think I create who I am, that I choose who I am. But really isn't that just acting? Who am I really?

 

It seems to me that identity is critical to any discussion of immortality. If you identify with something that is eternal, then the 'you' that you care about will surely live on in that. And there is only one truly eternal existence, we are part of it - we are it, if we just recognize that.

 

- TS

 

 

I think I'm going to use this in contemplation...gratitude is one of the things I seek to cultivate, and that is a very good base from which to work.

 

Thanks for your replies!

[C T]

I think I'm going to use this in contemplation...gratitude is one of the things I seek to cultivate, and that is a very good base from which to work.

 

Thanks for your replies!

To lend a bit of impetus, and inspiration, perhaps?

 

http://www.gratefulness.org/brotherdavid/a-good-day.htm

 

 

 

Hava greatfull grateful weekend all!!

[Marblehead]

No worries my friend, 'no place to go' is precisely it... sounds like that Friday feeling...

 

- TS

 

What's that? All dressed up, money in the pockets, and no place to go? I've been there. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

Hava greatfull grateful weekend all!!

 

Thanks. You too!

[Tree Stump]

To lend a bit of impetus, and inspiration, perhaps?

 

http://www.gratefulness.org/brotherdavid/a-good-day.htm

 

Hava greatfull grateful weekend all!!

 

Wow, that's so beautiful - thank you so much for posting that! What an amazing website also...

 

Have a great weekend too!

 

- TS

[pennyofheaven]

One could argue that after-death (eschatological) concerns are the root of all religions and probably all philosophy.

 

They each try to find something eternal with which we can identify with, and through identifying with it we somehow merge with it and live forever. That's the theory anyway. Be that the Tao, the dharmakaya, the risen Christ, God, our offspring, fame or other legacies... we all try to cling on to something that lasts forever in the knowledge that we ourselves do not.

 

I think that's mostly because it's impossible for us to exist without knowing that our existence will continue. But that also depends on what you consider existence to be in the first place.

 

If you cling on to your own experience only (the 'here and now'), then whether you are actually experiencing or gone, doesn't matter so much does it? A little short sighted perhaps?

 

If you cling on to a certain view of the world - an ideal of some kind - then your participation in creating that ideal would probably be your 'salvation'. I think for many progressives this is the case.

 

If you cling on to a view of the world from insight - e.g. Buddhism - then you must must consider whether that insight is truly representative of full existence, or is it just a shadow of it. Will your after-death existence truly exist the way you do, or are you in fact chasing mortality?

 

If you cling on to the actual world and its underlying processes, such as the Tao or natural law, then you can find peace purely in contemplation and living freely, knowing that the spirit within you will continue on after your individual self has had its turn. This is probably more of a conservative view. Reminding yourself of its eternal existence by observing others and nature will provide you some comfort of immortality, and perhaps the hope you need to live each day. Hope is really all we need.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

- TS

 

In my experience, when you are present in the now, there is no clinging to this or that but dwelling in the presence of the now there exists nothing except pure potential. Observing the external or what arises internally therefore is likened to that of a new born babe. An awe to behold, a joy to experience without any preconceived notions. Our beliefs and conditioning (preconceived notions) act as anchors to keep us where we think we are instead of being and experiencing who we are and what we are and what we are in and of.

[pennyofheaven]

Hi Cat Pillar,

 

To be conscious is to will, and to will is to cling, no? The question is what we cling to, because when we give up our will we may as well be dead.

 

In my view, experience-alone is short sighted because it focuses purely on the immediate senses without any concern for the origin of those feelings. It can be superficial. We may as well be rocks weathering the elements.

 

Experience coupled with insight into natural law seems to be a richer way of living. Looking deeply into your experiences to see their origin, validate their authenticity - are they consistent with the eternal natural law? Or are they born from abstract ideals that are purely self-serving and have no real existence?

 

The way I see it, the beauty of humanity is that we are almost like the Tao's mirror: we exist to experience all of life, to witness the wonder of existence. Confronted with that we see our origin and our eternal destiny, in some small way we are able to identify with the Tao. And in that lies some comfort of our true immortality.

 

What you call 'being present' can be either, but of course (and I'm sure you would agree) we shouldn't ever exclude the past and future, but rather see everything as one process.

 

- TS

 

Dwelling in the now does not exclude anything, it includes everything and nothing if you understand what I am pointing to. Past present and future are one but no distinction is made. Kind of like looking at the ocean and the waves. If you try to identify whether this wave coming forward is the wave from the past or the future or part thereof engages the mind in preconceptions. It is much more rewarding enjoying the wonder of the ocean. Feeling its power and gentleness and what ever it has to offer by way of senses in the newness of its arrival.

[pennyofheaven]

I agree, for practical reasons we can't completely ignore the past and the future. But I'm sure you would agree that we should not dwell in the past or future either.

 

 

 

Well, I still don't grasp what eternal natural law is, so it's hard for me to make comparisons to it from my experience. Maybe once I've been cultivating for awhile I'll have a better grasp of these concepts.

 

What practical reasons are those I am interested to know? I do agree dwelling is not good use of now time.

 

Comparisons are deadly at the best of times. Maybe you have grasped more than you realize.

[Tree Stump]

Dwelling in the now does not exclude anything, it includes everything and nothing if you understand what I am pointing to. Past present and future are one but no distinction is made. Kind of like looking at the ocean and the waves. If you try to identify whether this wave coming forward is the wave from the past or the future or part thereof engages the mind in preconceptions. It is much more rewarding enjoying the wonder of the ocean. Feeling its power and gentleness and what ever it has to offer by way of senses in the newness of its arrival.

 

Past, present and future may be 'one' from a certain perspective, but that perspective isn't a human one. To live purely in the 'now' is to be nothing but a rock weathering the elements. Is there nothing worthwhile in humanity qua humanity? Is our memory a mistake? Is our ability to contemplate the beauty of nature a mistake?

 

- TS