The After Death Question

[Cat Pillar]

What practical reasons are those I am interested to know? I do agree dwelling is not good use of now time.

 

Comparisons are deadly at the best of times. Maybe you have grasped more than you realize.

 

If I give absolutely no thought to my future, it is unlikely I will be able to keep up with my responsibilities. If I have no consideration for the past, it is likely I will make the same mistakes over and over again.

 

I doubt I've grasped much at all. I have this belief that my life would be much more pleasant if I had a good grasp on The Way Things Are.

[pennyofheaven]

Past, present and future may be 'one' from a certain perspective, but that perspective isn't a human one. To live purely in the 'now' is to be nothing but a rock weathering the elements. Is there nothing worthwhile in humanity qua humanity? Is our memory a mistake? Is our ability to contemplate the beauty of nature a mistake?

 

- TS

 

In nothing there is everything. There are no mistakes. Memories are wonderful when viewed from the presence of now and contemplation of the beauty of nature and everything that exists is an awe to behold a wonder to revel in. We just don't have emotional attachments. These are our anchors. Useful at the time of experiencing and at the time of creating. Not useful when revisiting.

[Tree Stump]

In nothing there is everything. There are no mistakes. Memories are wonderful when viewed from the presence of now and contemplation of the beauty of nature and everything that exists is an awe to behold a wonder to revel in. We just don't have emotional attachments. These are our anchors. Useful at the time of experiencing and at the time of creating. Not useful when revisiting.

 

Each passing moment contains far more than our senses can convey, each moment is an infinite wellspring. Reflecting on those moments can help us to see in our experiences what may not otherwise have been apparent to our senses.

 

Our emotions often reflect the will of nature - caring for our children, pro-creative relationship attachment, to name a couple. Dwelling on our past experiences can help us learn to harmonize our emotions with nature. How is that not useful?

 

- TS

[pennyofheaven]

If I give absolutely no thought to my future, it is unlikely I will be able to keep up with my responsibilities. If I have no consideration for the past, it is likely I will make the same mistakes over and over again.

 

I doubt I've grasped much at all. I have this belief that my life would be much more pleasant if I had a good grasp on The Way Things Are.

 

Giving thought to the future is fine providing it is done within the present moment they must however be let go once the decision is made. The secret that is advertised tries to nail this very point. There is no separation. Now contains the future, past and present. As sentient beings feelings are paramount. If our feelings are old feelings they will persist. If they are feelings that arise because they have not been let go, provided we let them flow which is the natural movement of feelings we will have new feelings in the present which shape our future. Which is here and now. If we keep old feelings same patterns of the past might persist. Depends.

 

I know no one who has grasped a lot of what they already know myself included. From your posts however it is probably more than you credit yourself with.

[pennyofheaven]

Each passing moment contains far more than our senses can convey, each moment is an infinite wellspring. Reflecting on those moments can help us to see in our experiences what may not otherwise have been apparent to our senses.

 

Our emotions often reflect the will of nature - caring for our children, pro-creative relationship attachment, to name a couple. Dwelling on our past experiences can help us learn to harmonize our emotions with nature. How is that not useful?

 

- TS

 

Oh for sure it is useful at the time. What is not so useful is using past experience to experience present experience. Our past experience is already locked in. We are denying ourselves the beauty and wonder of new ways of perceiving what is. If we want to repeat our patterns of the past that is ok to dwell if one chooses. Of course we will learn something new every time the pattern recurs because that is the nature of the Tao. If we want new experiences we need to let go. Clinging to the past keeps us anchored in the patterns of those experiences and our progress if thats what you call it can be one very long journey. If we like the scenery on the journey, okay.

[Cat Pillar]

Giving thought to the future is fine providing it is done within the present moment they must however be let go once the decision is made. The secret that is advertised tries to nail this very point. There is no separation. Now contains the future, past and present. As sentient beings feelings are paramount. If our feelings are old feelings they will persist. If they are feelings that arise because they have not been let go, provided we let them flow which is the natural movement of feelings we will have new feelings in the present which shape our future. Which is here and now. If we keep old feelings same patterns of the past might persist. Depends.

 

I know no one who has grasped a lot of what they already know myself included. From your posts however it is probably more than you credit yourself with.

 

Your first paragraph is essentially what I was trying to convey.

 

I have never been very comfortable with giving myself credit, so you may be right.

[pennyofheaven]

Your first paragraph is essentially what I was trying to convey.

 

I have never been very comfortable with giving myself credit, so you may be right.

 

I figured that, that is what you were trying to convey from the energy in your posts.

 

Who is ever comfortable with that giving oneself credit? We are sometimes our own worst enemies. Not always and thats the good thing about cycles.

[Tree Stump]

Oh for sure it is useful at the time. What is not so useful is using past experience to experience present experience. Our past experience is already locked in. We are denying ourselves the beauty and wonder of new ways of perceiving what is. If we want to repeat our patterns of the past that is ok to dwell if one chooses. Of course we will learn something new every time the pattern recurs because that is the nature of the Tao. If we want new experiences we need to let go. Clinging to the past keeps us anchored in the patterns of those experiences and our progress if thats what you call it can be one very long journey. If we like the scenery on the journey, okay.

 

Not "using our past experiences to experience present experience" is a little different to "we shouldn't have emotional attachments". Emotion doesn't always distort reality. Emotion is a present experience also.

 

I agree that reducing experience to preconceived notions or ideas is a bad thing. Reductionism and positivism are bad things. One should be humble but we shouldn't ever imply that emotions are bad. They are natural, and a gift from God or whichever absolute you follow. Emotions are a gift that allows us to share in the will of nature, and we should relish in them and contemplate on them deeply. The goal should always be a harmonic, holistic view of reality - not the distorted, reduced view that is often the perverted Buddhist one.

 

- TS

[pennyofheaven]

Not "using our past experiences to experience present experience" is a little different to "we shouldn't have emotional attachments". Emotion doesn't always distort reality. Emotion is a present experience also.

 

I agree that reducing experience to preconceived notions or ideas is a bad thing. Reductionism and positivism are bad things. One should be humble but we shouldn't ever imply that emotions are bad. They are natural, and a gift from God or whichever absolute you follow. Emotions are a gift that allows us to share in the will of nature, and we should relish in them and contemplate on them deeply. The goal should always be a harmonic, holistic view of reality - not the distorted, reduced view that is often the perverted Buddhist one.

 

- TS

 

I wasn't implying emotions are bad. Is that how you understood what I said to mean? If so, perhaps this might help clarify.

 

When we experience grief, the emotion of grief exists in the moment one experiences loss. This emotion will eventually subside over time. When we experience a new loss in the present, if we have not let go of the initial experience of grief, we are in the present experiencing old emotions mixed with new emotion. If we have let go of the emotional attachment to the loss of the past. The grief of the present loss has less impact because of the lessons learned from truly letting go of the first experience. We are then free to gain more insights into the true nature of our emotion untainted as we did with the first experience.

Edited February 5, 2011 by pennyofheaven

[Marblehead]

I wasn't implying emotions are bad. Is that how you understood what I said to mean? If so, perhaps this might help clarify.

 

When we experience grief, the emotion of grief exists in the moment one experiences loss. This emotion will eventually subside over time. When we experience a new loss in the present, if we have not let go of the initial experience of grief, we are in the present experiencing old emotions mixed with new emotion. If we have let go of the emotional attachment to the loss of the past. The grief of the present loss has less impact because of the lessons learned from truly letting go of the first experience. We are then free to gain more insights into the true nature of our emotion untainted as we did with the first experience.

 

That works with positive emotions as well. We had a positive emotion many years ago, we have a similar positive emotion today that recalls the one of the past. Hey!, we get to enjoy both experiences, the present one and the one of the past. Isn't that great?!?

[Tree Stump]

I wasn't implying emotions are bad. Is that how you understood what I said to mean? If so, perhaps this might help clarify.

 

When we experience grief, the emotion of grief exists in the moment one experiences loss. This emotion will eventually subside over time. When we experience a new loss in the present, if we have not let go of the initial experience of grief, we are in the present experiencing old emotions mixed with new emotion. If we have let go of the emotional attachment to the loss of the past. The grief of the present loss has less impact because of the lessons learned from truly letting go of the first experience. We are then free to gain more insights into the true nature of our emotion untainted as we did with the first experience.

 

You say that you don't think emotions are bad, yet you're offering ways to lessen their impact. That's a detachment from emotions which, in my mind, is an oxymoron. Emotions are intended to have impact, they're intended to move us - hence 'eMOTIONs'. Why should they not have lasting impact? Why should they not inform subsequent emotions?

 

Isn't it possible that nature intended the old emotions to mix up with the new emotions? Perhaps we may experience something as unique as ourselves that way.

 

edit: I will add - as an afterthought - that a real problem is when people invoke/invent their own emotions, based on irrational fear, or unrealistic expectations in a relationship, for example. But that's not an attachment issue, it's an overactive imagination issue.

 

- TS

Edited February 5, 2011 by Tree Stump

[pennyofheaven]

That works with positive emotions as well. We had a positive emotion many years ago, we have a similar positive emotion today that recalls the one of the past. Hey!, we get to enjoy both experiences, the present one and the one of the past. Isn't that great?!?

 

Yes of course it is great. How would one know however whether one is denying oneself a different positive emotion that has more power to it (or maybe not) if you will if you are still carrying around old positive emotions. What I am pointing to is the newness of the present moment like experiencing as if you were experiencing it for the ver first time. Like that of a new born babe.

[pennyofheaven]

You say that you don't think emotions are bad, yet you're offering ways to lessen their impact. That's a detachment from emotions which, in my mind, is an oxymoron. Emotions are intended to have impact, they're intended to move us - hence 'eMOTIONs'. Why should they not have lasting impact? Why should they not inform subsequent emotions?

 

Isn't it possible that nature intended the old emotions to mix up with the new emotions? Perhaps we may experience something as unique as ourselves that way.

 

edit: I will add - as an afterthought - that a real problem is when people invoke/invent their own emotions, based on irrational fear, or unrealistic expectations in a relationship, for example. But that's not an attachment issue, it's an overactive imagination issue.

 

- TS

 

Perhaps you are not understanding what I am pointing to, I don't know? Emotions are indeed important and neither good or bad. I am not claiming ways to provide ways to lessen their impact. That would not be useful. In any case it is impossible to do depending on the situation that evokes the emotion. . Besides, when they arise they are useful indicators of how we respond to our world and everything in it, giving us great insights into the nature of our beingness. Not only are they to move us, but they themselves are moving and moving we should let them. Let them flow in, through and out. The reason we often do not let them flow is because we cling to the feeling be they positive or negative. We do not lose the lesson if any by letting them flow. We are however, denying ourselves the newness of life. The infinite potential for new experiences.

 

Nature is a good example.

 

Does nature repeat its patterns? Is every winter the same? Is every summer the same? No two days have exactly the same weather. No tree in the forest keeps the same leaves forever? Nature lets go and doesn't cling.

[Marblehead]

Yes of course it is great. How would one know however whether one is denying oneself a different positive emotion that has more power to it (or maybe not) if you will if you are still carrying around old positive emotions. What I am pointing to is the newness of the present moment like experiencing as if you were experiencing it for the ver first time. Like that of a new born babe.

 

Hehehe. Yes, I knew what you were talking about. I just wanted to mess with you.

[manitou]

What a wonderful topic.

 

I look at it this way. Eternity has no beginning, it has no end. We are here, we will always be here, we have always been here. People tend to think of eternity as 'the future', but it's also 'the past'.

 

I think when somebody has a near-death experience or a personal experience where the One is reached, this seems to take the fear out of the equation. Personally, one night when my husband and I were having a sexual encounter, we both ended up in Tantra-land. That changed everything. The place was a golden, warm, humming envelope of beingness - I had a definite immediate knowledge that this was the collective of souls. My intuition tells me this is the collective place where souls rest, and where my soul will go return. It is a wonderful place where time does not pass. It is all Now.

 

If this is what death is, I'll be happy to return there. Whether this is true or not is irrelevant to me; it took many fears away, and it gave me something to look forward to.

 

I go along with the lucid dream idea too. I'll bet that a Christian may envision Jesus upon death, a Buddhist may envision the Buddha. I think death will be whatever our life has conditioned it to be, as to what our lucid dream will show.

[Vajrahridaya]

I remember my past lives, so I know I'll have future lives, in one realm or another... so death doesn't exist, as it's only transformation of appearance. There is no final resting place, one will always experience one thing or another, one may take a seat every once in a while for a long, long time, either in a formless realm of warm bliss or in a pleasure heaven, but none of this is permanent.

 

Most people forget their past lives due to passing through the unconscious void, but if a person makes the void conscious within, then all is revealed!

[surfingbudda]

a nice quote I just found which I thought I might add:

 

"The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead." - Albert Einstein

[Vajrahridaya]

a nice quote I just found which I thought I might add:

 

"The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead." - Albert Einstein

:lol: Awesome... even though... of course, I don't buy it.

 

I don't agree, as accidents happen in heaven and hell realms too.

[surfingbudda]

:lol: Awesome... even though... of course, I don't buy it.

 

I don't agree, as accidents happen in heaven and hell realms too.

 

ya I dont know if I agree, I think Einstein was actually being sarcastic and joking around when he said that

 

heres some Einstein quotes I like:

 

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

 

"A person starts to live when he can live outside himself."

 

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

 

"The only real valuable thing is intuition."

 

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

 

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."

 

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

[goldisheavy]

I know this can of worms has probably been beaten into glue already, but I wanted to bring it up.

 

For me, the question has always been "does experience end with death?" Many state they have had personal experiences which leave them with no doubt, but personally I expect I'll never know until I actually die.

 

Recently, though, I have been thinking a new question about this issue. And that is..."does it matter?"

 

In other words...should the existence or non-existence of after-death experience be allowed to affect our decisions in life?

 

I'm curious to hear your opinions.

 

Your beliefs about the after-life have an effect on morality. For example, if you believe that your future experience is completely independent of your current actions, then there is no incentive to accumulate either wisdom or merit and engaging in hedonism makes the most sense.

 

If you believe that life is eternal then there is no particular hurry to chase after worldly pleasures. You know you'll have plenty of time for everything and that the only thing that time is short for is wisdom... because it's easy to forget and hard to remember. Pleasure is easy to find. Wisdom is harder to find. So priorities change if you believe in the after-life, even if we ignore the karma side of the equation completely.

 

So beliefs about the after-life are important insofar they affect your well-being, beliefs and actions. Beliefs do not exist in isolation. If you have a certain belief, it always co-exists together with other beliefs that depend on it and that it depends on. Because of this, all beliefs are at least somewhat important. The deeper the belief, the more central the belief is, the more important it is. Beliefs affect literally everything in your life. They affect what actions you will take. They affect what actions you will refuse to take. They determine when you will hesitate. When you will act without hesitation. They determine what you will ask for yourself. What you will be able to part with. What you'll earn and the kind of job you'll have. Your health. Your ability to procure teachings. The kinds of dreams you'll have. And so on up to infinity.

 

So while I won't tell you in this particular post what to believe, I can safely tell you that whatever it is you choose to either believe or disbelieve, it will have an effect on you. So just pay attention. If you like the effect, proceed. If you don't like it, challenge your beliefs and work on changing them.

Edited February 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[manitou]

So while I won't tell you in this particular post what to believe, I can safely tell you that whatever it is you choose to either believe or disbelieve, it will have an effect on you. So just pay attention. If you like the effect, proceed. If you don't like it, challenge your beliefs and work on changing them.

 

 

(applause)

[Tree Stump]

(applause)

 

Indeed, I totally agree. People who have no fear of death scare me.

 

- TS

[Cat Pillar]

Your beliefs about the after-life have an effect on morality. For example, if you believe that your future experience is completely independent of your current actions, then there is no incentive to accumulate either wisdom or merit and engaging in hedonism makes the most sense.

 

If you believe that life is eternal then there is no particular hurry to chase after worldly pleasures. You know you'll have plenty of time for everything and that the only thing that time is short for is wisdom... because it's easy to forget and hard to remember. Pleasure is easy to find. Wisdom is harder to find. So priorities change if you believe in the after-life, even if we ignore the karma side of the equation completely.

 

So beliefs about the after-life are important insofar they affect your well-being, beliefs and actions. Beliefs do not exist in isolation. If you have a certain belief, it always co-exists together with other beliefs that depend on it and that it depends on. Because of this, all beliefs are at least somewhat important. The deeper the belief, the more central the belief is, the more important it is. Beliefs affect literally everything in your life. They affect what actions you will take. They affect what actions you will refuse to take. They determine when you will hesitate. When you will act without hesitation. They determine what you will ask for yourself. What you will be able to part with. What you'll earn and the kind of job you'll have. Your health. Your ability to procure teachings. The kinds of dreams you'll have. And so on up to infinity.

 

So while I won't tell you in this particular post what to believe, I can safely tell you that whatever it is you choose to either believe or disbelieve, it will have an effect on you. So just pay attention. If you like the effect, proceed. If you don't like it, challenge your beliefs and work on changing them.

 

Very nice answer, thank you! I like the advice in the last paragraph too, sounds like a practical approach.

[Marblehead]

People who have no fear of death scare me.

 

- TS

 

I'm a little sad that you (or anyone) feel this way.

 

I once again point out that there is a difference between fear and respect.

 

To respect the fact that if you mess up too badly you will die prior to fulfilling your full potential is different from having no fear of your end when it is time.

[Tree Stump]

I'm a little sad that you (or anyone) feel this way.

 

I once again point out that there is a difference between fear and respect.

 

To respect the fact that if you mess up too badly you will die prior to fulfilling your full potential is different from having no fear of your end when it is time.

 

Well, it's ok I'm not saying I'm scared of you. Seriously though I didn't intend the comment to be flippant... and it's difficult (impossible?) to talk about the topic in the abstract.

 

To my mind, it is natural for those living to have a general will to live. I think that being fearless towards your own death must necessarily affect your will to live. The two go hand in hand. If I love something, I fear losing it. If I'm honest, every second that I have that thing, I simultaneously fear losing it - and that lets me make the most of every second in its presence. That's true love, it is true life. It makes the event of its loss not as surprising, acceptable even, but no less feared.

 

The same goes for life. If I fear death, that's not a negative thing: to the contrary it means that I value life to the maximum. This is the true respect that is due to something: that you accept it for what it is: for its limited nature but for what it truly gives us while it is here. To truly accept something is to fear losing it and to value having it. Fear and respect are not mutually exclusive.

 

What does it say if one does not fear loss? It appears to speak of an indifference to its present value. A resignation to its temporality that compromises the value of its very presence. Perhaps signs of a detachment that shows insufficient respect for the dignity of its present existence, of what it can still offer. Being fearless towards death seems to devalue life.

 

Now, saying all that, I get the feeling that you are actually talking about accepting death after a full life. Accepting that one has given all one can give, and that there is very little else one can offer. I understand the thoughts that arise at that point in life. But I still question whether one would actually see any less value in their life and in living. Perhaps if one was in immense pain, or had lost their mental clarity. Perhaps when one undeniably finds that end of their life approaching. Perhaps that would be accepting that very limitation you understood, respected yet feared all of your life. But in most cases, that time has not come.

 

- TS