The After Death Question

[Marblehead]

Hi Tree,

 

Thanks for responding, and a very nice response it is.

 

Yes, everything in our life can be replaced except for our life. Therefore it is only logically that our life would be the most important thing in our life.

 

But then, there are conditions in life sometimes where even our life must be placed in a lower position on importance, for example, if a loved one were in mortal danger and would surely die if we did not put our own life on the line to save that loved-one. Now, for most people this would be an instinctual resopnse. Their instincts would over-ride their fear of losing their own life.

 

So while I am not disagreeing with what you have said I am suggesting that the fear is a response to the thought of losing something, as you pointed out.

 

Back in the early days of man fear was very important because there were far more situations where one could be done it. Nearly none of these conditions exist today. The instinct still remains. When we allow this instinct to be too strong we limit our potential in life. For example, the fear of losing. If we are afraid to lose we will make very few, if any, uncertain ventures in life.

 

A soldier who fears death can never be 100% efficient (if s/he is assinged duties that put them in harm's way). That is the root for the stories of the warrior who has no fear of death.

 

In the TTC Lao Tzu wrote of the Sage who was beyond death. It wasn't because he is a mortal. No. It is because he is constantly aware of his environment and he does not put himself in harm's way - he is respectful of the potential of the tiger, the rhino, the sword.

 

I enjoy talking about fear and how it restricts our potential not necessarily the fear of death. It just happened that this was an excellent opportunity.

[Tree Stump]

But then, there are conditions in life sometimes where even our life must be placed in a lower position on importance, for example, if a loved one were in mortal danger and would surely die if we did not put our own life on the line to save that loved-one. Now, for most people this would be an instinctual resopnse. Their instincts would over-ride their fear of losing their own life.

When we allow this instinct to be too strong we limit our potential in life. For example, the fear of losing. If we are afraid to lose we will make very few, if any, uncertain ventures in life.

 

Hi marble,

 

Yes, you make some very good points. What you're talking about is sacrifice and martyrdom. Correct me if I misunderstood.

 

One can look at probably the best known case of martyrdom (best known, that is, in the west) - the crucifixion of Jesus - and see 'evidence' that he feared his death. Yet he accepted it. Do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

 

When my daughter was younger, sometimes when I would tuck her in at night she would start crying. She would tell me that she doesn't want me to die. She feared for my death, something which is quite natural for children of that age. I simply hugged her, and told her that is the sincerest expression of love, and thanked her. Somehow that provided consolation, it made her understand the identity between love and attachment. She could accept that fear because now it was inseparable from love, it was part of the same thing, and she valued that love more than anything, and knew she had to accept it for what it was. But I never asked her to stop fearing.

 

In martyrdom - that of a soldier perhaps - he most certainly fears. But what he fears is loss of something greater than his life. He is able to identify with something beyond his own ego. He fears for life, just as Jesus did, but can accept it because he fears for others' lives more than his own. I don't think in that process he fears any less for his life, but is confronted with a greater loss. Just as my daughter can accept the fear for her father's death because she is confronted with the greater loss of the experience of love itself.

 

To quote Alfred Tennyson: " 'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. "

 

When one's life becomes the absolute (ie. the greatest loss) then that is simply egotism. All things must be in their place. But that doesn't mean that we stop or even reduce the appropriate fear for our own death. Neither should we train ourselves to. Rather we should open our eyes to realize that there is a greater 'Truth' out there, and accept where our life stands in relation to that.

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

Hi TS,

 

That is such a beautiful post I'm not even going to respond to it as that would possibly corrupt what you said.

 

Thanks for entertaining me in the discussion of the concept.

 

I will let this go for now until someone presents another thought to consider.

 

Thanks again!

[manitou]

A shamanic mindset closely allies with what we're talking about here. The shaman uses death as 'his advisor', a presence we're aware of to the left and a little behind us. To become on speaking terms with death is for death to lose its power over us.

 

I've said this before in another thread and I know it's gross, but I do actually pick up small road kill (it has to be good looking, none of the ugly stuff) , for the purpose of putting it somewhere off the road where it can be recycled into the stream of life. To do this with the intent of befriending death is the thing. It seems to work at different levels.

[Marblehead]

Are you suggesting that there are some road-kill members on this forum? Hehehe.

[Cat Pillar]

Are you suggesting that there are some road-kill members on this forum? Hehehe.

 

Some mornings I resemble that remark.

[Marblehead]

Some mornings I resemble that remark.

 

 

Hehehe. Me too.

[Green Tiger]

I know this can of worms has probably been beaten into glue already, but I wanted to bring it up.

 

For me, the question has always been "does experience end with death?" Many state they have had personal experiences which leave them with no doubt, but personally I expect I'll never know until I actually die.

 

Recently, though, I have been thinking a new question about this issue. And that is..."does it matter?"

 

In other words...should the existence or non-existence of after-death experience be allowed to affect our decisions in life?

 

I'm curious to hear your opinions.

 

Hey CatPillar,

 

Just stumbled on your thread while searching and thought I would toss something in.

 

Once, when I was feeling really down, I took a hallucinogenic substance. Now, if you know anything about hallucinogens, this is usually a really REALLY bad idea. Set and setting determine your experience almost always. If you take a hallucinogen when you are in a bad place, it will usually take you to an even worse place. On this occasion, however, that was not the case.

 

Instead of becoming paranoid or having a 'bad trip' I became really happy and euphoric. I realized (it actually felt like I remembered) that none of the crap I was feeling down about actually mattered. It is kind of hard to put into words exactly what I felt, but it was very happy. I started laughing joyfully. It felt like coming home. I remembered that all things ultimately serve love and light and, although we are all part of the Great Thing That Is, our lives are somewhat insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I felt like I had once known this, but had forgotten. It felt very good to remember.

 

Of course, I was hallucinating. So I'm not sure what that anecdote's worth. What may be relevant to your question though, is that afterward I felt that:

 

a. We are all connected to something greater than our individuality. Something that, I think, transcends death.

 

and

 

b. Nothing really matters. This is just a dance. That day I resolved to dance my heart out while the music is playing. If there is no more dancing when the music ends, oh well. If there is another dance after this one, cool.

 

And I thought this thread was dead.

 

It has been afforded a new life.

 

Cheeezze!!!! That sounds like Buddhist cycles of life!

 

And I called out unto this thread and did bid it rise again.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Green Tiger

[manitou]

Here's what I'm thinking about all this.

 

The kwazy kwistians seem to think that eternity starts the day they die. But if it is an unending eternity there is also no beginning. That must mean that our consciousness has always been, our consciousness is here now, and our consciousness will always be. We just happen to be living out a little animated ripple that is part of the never ending cycle, and it's an illusive place that appears real to us because of the linear nature of our brains that actually thinks there is such thing as time and space. How silly we are.

[ॐDominicusॐ]

I know this can of worms has probably been beaten into glue already, but I wanted to bring it up.

 

For me, the question has always been "does experience end with death?" Many state they have had personal experiences which leave them with no doubt, but personally I expect I'll never know until I actually die.

 

Recently, though, I have been thinking a new question about this issue. And that is..."does it matter?"

 

In other words...should the existence or non-existence of after-death experience be allowed to affect our decisions in life?

 

I'm curious to hear your opinions.

In my case, after years of practice, I eventually spontaneously remembered pre-existing prior to taking on a body here on earth.

 

I was Pure awareness, bodiless, egoless, and was discussing with other "units of awareness" about being "born" on "earth". Didn't know what those 2 terms meant, so was shown what goes on here, and HATED ALL OF IT!!!!!

 

I saw bodies as animalistic prison cells programmed with a virus called the ego, in a giant prison planet filled with wars, death, disease, hatred, rapes, murders, and so forth.

 

Was asked to come and help. I answered that one person can't change the world. But was told that one person can (which was proven to be true to me after what Edward Snowden has done). Was shown that even helping one person, even on small scales, effects the whole, everything connected like an infinite tapestry.

 

So even those I was reluctant, I came here anyway, to help in whatever little ways I can, and still truly am, a reluctant servant. Since I was a kid, I've hated both this world, my body, ego, and pretty much everything else.

 

It was though various practices, insights, grace, and experiences that I finally remembered that I am not the body or ego, and that I'm not from here. When the body dies, me as Awareness will return to merge back into the Source.....although that can happen while the body is still animated.....

 

It makes life easy remembering that. I literally brush off my shoulders no matter what I'm facing. Even had some major health scares a few years back and even then, was ready to go at the drop of a dime.

 

No attachments, just passing through, practice in the mean time, empathy, love, joy, appreciation, the now, the One, the many, everything/nothing/both/and None