About Lao Tzu

[heaven chi]

Hello,

 

I found that an enlightened Buddhist Master gave a dharma lecture on the Diamond Sutra and commented the following:

 

"Lao Tzu was a transformation body of the Venerable Mahakasyapa. When the Buddha entered the world, he saw that living beings in China committed many offenses and did not relay on the Dharma to cultivate, so he sent Lao Tzu, Confucius, and Yen Hui to China to teach and transform living beings. All three were transformation-bodies of Bodhisattvas.

 

Lao Tzu introduced the concept of the unconditioned to the Chinese people. If one can understand unconditioned dharma, one can then come to understand that which is not unconditioned. The Buddhadharma speaks of that which is unconditioned and yet not unconditioned."

 

I thought you would be interested to know, if you don't know already.

[Marblehead]

I feel the need to suggest that this is total bull poop!

[heaven chi]

I feel the need to suggest that this is total bull poop!

 

OK, yes, I should have guessed some people would become offended. Sorry. I just thought it would reconcile Buddhism and Taoism as not opposed to each other. I actually respect that Zen master but you are free to have your opinion.

[Marblehead]

OK, yes, I should have guessed some people would become offended. Sorry. I just thought it would reconcile Buddhism and Taoism as not opposed to each other. I actually respect that Zen master but you are free to have your opinion.

 

Hehehe. No, I wasn't offended. No apologies necessary. This is not the first time such a concept has been presented. And I see nothing wrong with trying to reconcile the differences between various belief systems.

 

The problem I have is the placing one above another. What is wrong with understanding that two people who live thousands of miles apart can have a similar thought?

 

And I will apologize for using the term "bull poop" but that is what comes to my mind whenever someone suggests that one belief system is superior over another.

 

Whatever the belief system, if it leads an individual toward a greater good then that belief system is superior to others for that individual.

 

So please, continue to present thoughts that will attempt to reconcile the differences between various belief systems. But please, we should be careful to not present one as superior over all others because everytime we do this we will only be presenting cause for further disagreement and arguement.

 

Each belief system is superior for the individual who holds to that particular belief system.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Marblehead

[heaven chi]

Hehehe. No, I wasn't offended. No apologies necessary. This is not the first time such a concept has been presented. And I see nothing wrong with trying to reconcile the differences between various belief systems.

 

The problem I have is the placing one above another. What is wrong with understanding that two people who live thousands of miles apart can have a similar thought?

 

And I will apologize for using the term "bull poop" but that is what comes to my mind whenever someone suggests that one belief system is superior over another.

 

Whatever the belief system, if it leads an individual toward a greater good then that belief system is superior to others for that individual.

 

So please, continue to present thoughts that will attempt to reconcile the differences between various belief systems. But please, we should be careful to not present one as superior over all others because everytime we do this we will only be presenting cause for further disagreement and arguement.

 

Each belief system is superior for the individual who holds to that particular belief system.

 

Actually you are right. I placed Buddhism above Taoism and this shouldn't be done on a Taoist forum.

I think to argue if they are equal or not and which is highest is not very good. The best thing is to know by your own experience. Since I don't have much personal experience I posted this bit of info about Lao Tzu for informational purposes because it seemed interesting view from a generally respected teacher who wouldn't lie.

Edited January 24, 2011 by heaven chi

[RongzomFan]

I read the first post and thought it might have a Zen guy who said such nonsense.

 

Zen guys don't represent buddhism in any way.

[Marblehead]

Actually you are right. I placed Buddhism above Taoism and this shouldn't be done on a Taoist forum.

I think to argue if they are equal or not and which is highest is not very good. The best thing is to know by your own experience. Since I don't have much personal experience I posted this bit of info about Lao Tzu for informational purposes because it seemed interesting view from a generally respected teacher who wouldn't lie.

 

Hi Heaven Chi,

 

I wasn't suggesting it was a lie. I am sure it is a firmly held belief by that Buddhist Master. I will suggest that the quote is a misunderstanding on his/her part. Perhaps his/her strong belief in his/her belief system has caused a fog to grow in front of his/her eyes preventing them from seeing what others see.

 

This is part of the concept that was presented in my last chapter of Taoist Philosophy - the five distractions. Excessive love of anything prevents us from seeing reality as it truely is.

 

After reading your last post I feel you were very sincere in making that post in hopes of bringing the parts into oneness. I commend you for that.

 

And please don't let my responses deter you in any way from making further posts. The only way we can achieve a common understanding is to talk about the concepts.

 

Personally, I enjoy talking about Buddhist concepts. Of course, not nearly as much as I enjoy talking about Taoist concepts. Hehehe. But equal respect is the first key in any discussion of the differences and commonalities between the various belief systems.

[Marblehead]

I read the first post and thought it might have a Zen guy who said such nonsense.

 

Zen guys don't represent buddhism in any way.

 

That's funny but it is a point worthy of consideration. Not only should we question what is presented but we should also consider the source of what was presented.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Actually you are right. I placed Buddhism above Taoism and this shouldn't be done on a Taoist forum.

I think to argue if they are equal or not and which is highest is not very good.

 

 

Aha!!!

[forestofclarity]

There is also a Taoist story about how when Lao Tzu left China, he went to teach the Buddha.

[heaven chi]

There is also a Taoist story about how when Lao Tzu left China, he went to teach the Buddha.

 

Interesting!

[Marblehead]

There is also a Taoist story about how when Lao Tzu left China, he went to teach the Buddha.

 

I sure hope you are not going to believe that one either.

[heaven chi]

Aha!!!

 

If we could debate which is better in a civilised manner it would be very good, but first I don't have debating skills and second I'm not sure if just debating by words is enough. Possibly one would have to compete in supernormal powers, I think there was such a debate in the past when Buddhism entered China.

But let us imitate Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva and never underestimate whatever skillful teaching including Taoism.

[heaven chi]

I sure hope you are not going to believe that one either.

 

Maybe he could have taught the Buddha before his full enlightenment.

[Marblehead]

Maybe he could have taught the Buddha before his full enlightenment.

 

Hehehe. You get one point for trying.

 

The established story of Lao Tzu is that he wandered off beyond the border gates into the desert. That would mean he wandered off to the north or northeast. He would have had to travel to the southeast were he headed toward India. Going off into the (Gobi) desert back then would have been a death sentence.

[Mr. T]

hey all!

 

heheh, this is funny and serious all at the same time, wow! but honestly, it's a really interesting trend how religions try to debase other religious leaders through obviously contrived stories. a couple things that stuck out to me,

 

"Actually you are right. I placed Buddhism above Taoism and this shouldn't be done on a Taoist forum."....

or anywhere else...it simply is not reality. they are equally good, and equally meaningless.

 

"If we could debate which is better in a civilised manner it would be very good"....

 

why? i refer back to my point (and the point that others have made as well) that neither is better than the other. i always wonder why we try to reconcile, join, order in terms of origin or importance, and generally compare buddhism and taoism. was anyone here alive and living in china at the time? then we will never know what happened, and i contend that it doesn't matter a hill'o'beans.

[gendao]

It may not be that likely that Laozi was a "transformation body" of one of Buddha's disciples, as they are thought to have lived around approximately the same time themselves.

 

Buddha

The time of his birth and death are uncertain: most early 20th-century historians dated his lifetime as c. 563 BCE to 483 BCE, but more recent opinion dates his death to between 486 and 483 BCE or, according to some, between 411 and 400 BCE

Laozi

Laozi lived in the 6th century BC. Historians variously contend that Laozi is a synthesis of multiple historical figures, that he is a mythical figure, or that he actually lived in the 4th century BC

 

There is also a Taoist story about how when Lao Tzu left China, he went to teach the Buddha.

Hua Hu Jing, which is the Conversion of the Barbarians Classic. Ni, Hua-Ching states that this text was ordered burned in the 14th century due to religious rivalry between the ruling Buddhists and indigenous Taoists, as this text apparently suggests that Lao Zi continued on to India and taught Buddha (the Kind Prince the Master addresses) some of the principles of his philosophy.