Pre-Heaven Power

[Astral_Anima]

http://www.americanyzy.com/content/Pre-Heaven-Power-Method-American-YiZungYue

 

Hey all,

Just browsing around when I came upon the concept of "pre-heaven" and "post-heaven". I know i've come across that somewhere before and I totally forget the diff so I googled it and this page came up. This guy talked about a form or "internal power" which uses the balls of the feet rather than the lower dan tien and other differences. Anybody ever heard of this guy or this "pre-heaven power"? Can anyone explain the diff between pre- and post-heaven?

Thanks a bunch

-Astral

 

 

Edit: I think I read somewhere that "pre-heaven" chi was "yang" chi? not positive on this one.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Astral_Anima

[devoid]

Hi Astral_Anima,

 

I don't really know anything about the guys behind the webpage you posted, so this is mainly general stuff combined with having had a quick glance.

 

I would like to divide your questions into no less than three questions: 1) the discussion of pre- and post- birth qi, 2) the discussion of the bubbling wells and 3) the discussion of martial power

 

1) the discussion of pre- and post- birth qi

The ancient taoists believed that one is born with a certain amount of qi (the pre-birth / pre-heaven) qi which one inherits from ones parents and and any post-birth / post-heaven qi is acquired in the form of breath, food and beverage. According to the belief the pre-birth qi cannot be replenished and once it is all used up, we die. The pre-birth qi is stored in the kidneys (in the Chinese sense i.e. kidneys and testicles / ovaries) and the post-birth qi is stored in the dantian.

 

2) the discussion of the bubbling wells

The bubbling well points on the feet (yongquan) is thought by the ancient taoists to be an energy conductor for raising energy from the ground and up through the legs.

 

3) the discussion of martial power

Martial arts schools that like to use the notion of qi traditionally ask the students to focus on returning energy to ones centre - the dantian - the theory goes that if one can connect the limbs through the body to the dantian as a kind of super-intersection, one can perform martial arts very effectively (subject to having done the gong fu for training perfect form). Without knowing the proposition of the martial arts school you wrote about, my guess is that they suggests to their students to focus more on conducting power from the legs up rather than from the dantian. IMHO it is not necessarily a matter of either or - rather I see it as different emphasis on trying to explain the same game - one discusses it through being centered and the other does it through discussing a strong root. I guess either perspective has its legitimacy although at the same time I think it would be a vice to consider the methods fundamentally different: after all, both seem to attempt to manifest martial power based on "internal" principles.

[gendao]

http://www.americanyzy.com/content/Pre-Heaven-Power-Method-American-YiZungYue

 

Hey all,

Just browsing around when I came upon the concept of "pre-heaven" and "post-heaven". I know i've come across that somewhere before and I totally forget the diff so I googled it and this page came up. This guy talked about a form or "internal power" which uses the balls of the feet rather than the lower dan tien and other differences. Anybody ever heard of this guy or this "pre-heaven power"? Can anyone explain the diff between pre- and post-heaven?

Thanks a bunch

-Astral

 

 

Edit: I think I read somewhere that "pre-heaven" chi was "yang" chi? not positive on this one.

He is using a different meaning for "pre-heaven" here than its traditional TCM one. His definition implies "potential"...but ostensibly has little to actually do with qi or a state of being.

 

In fact, he heavily downplays the role of qi in his method - which he says relies more upon optimal body mechanics instead.

The Pre-Heaven Power Method abandons the traditional “Dan Tian based approach” and instead focuses on the balls of the feet for internal power generation.

 

The basic mechanics were discovered by Master Pan in 1992 and since then the method has been constantly evolved and refined.

traditional Chinese martial arts training which teaches that the posture of the feet should be “five toes firmly grasping the ground” or "Yongquan sucking the ground"

 

In this method, the power is initiated by squeezing the ground with the balls of the feet.

The training of the balls of the feet is the most important part of the Pre-Heaven Power Method.

I wonder if his "new" method is really that different from the traditional method though? How different is "yongquan sucking the ground" really from "squeezing the ground with the balls of the feet?"

internal power has often mistakenly been considered to be the mysterious Qi power. In the past, according to the literature, some masters were able to generate amazing power and rebound opponent several feet away. However, due their lack of knowledge, students and teachers usually explained this away with “Qi power.”

 

While it is true that practicing qigong will increase your energy, qigong alone will never give a student the power demonstrated by a skillful Pre-Heaven Power Method practitioner, since the determining factor in the production of such power is structure rather than Qi.

 

Since we all naturally have access to this (potential) power, the method is described as “Pre-Heaven” in nature.

It would be interesting for anyone near Skokie, Illinois to try out a workshop with them and report some firsthand feedback here...

Or buy his book and give us all a review?

Edited January 27, 2011 by vortex

[thelerner]

I'm not too far from the school. Maybe I'll look in. I doubt I'd go the Ba Gua route, 12 animal forms, lots of young kids training. I'd go the Wudang/TaiChi route. I notice they don't have daily training. Some classes seem to be only once a week. That hurts in progressing.

[Astral_Anima]

I'm not too far from the school. Maybe I'll look in. I doubt I'd go the Ba Gua route, 12 animal forms, lots of young kids training. I'd go the Wudang/TaiChi route. I notice they don't have daily training. Some classes seem to be only once a week. That hurts in progressing.

 

Well if you do check it out, please let us know your impression of it and/or your experiences. Be curious to see what it's about. It says it's about "internal martial arts" which usually, to me, means "qigong" or "neikung", but as vortex points out he seems to focus more on "optimal body mechanics" rather than "internal cultivation". So it's not clear whether he's just saying that to appeal to the western crowd or what.

 

-Astral

[devoid]

Well if you do check it out, please let us know your impression of it and/or your experiences. Be curious to see what it's about. It says it's about "internal martial arts" which usually, to me, means "qigong" or "neikung", but as vortex points out he seems to focus more on "optimal body mechanics" rather than "internal cultivation". So it's not clear whether he's just saying that to appeal to the western crowd or what.

 

-Astral

 

Hi Astral,

 

From looking at the web site it's about teaching people fajin - many skilled martial artists will tell you that you don't need to understand qi (or even acknowledge it for that matter) to learn that as it is mainly a matter of body mechanics, form and intent. 'Internal' simply means that you use the body mechanics of your entire body to toss the opponent rather than by simply swinging an arm around, say, the shoulder joint. Their videos give you a taste of this.

[Astral_Anima]

Hi Astral,

 

From looking at the web site it's about teaching people fajin - many skilled martial artists will tell you that you don't need to understand qi (or even acknowledge it for that matter) to learn that as it is mainly a matter of body mechanics, form and intent. 'Internal' simply means that you use the body mechanics of your entire body to toss the opponent rather than by simply swinging an arm around, say, the shoulder joint. Their videos give you a taste of this.

 

...oh. lol, thanks for clearing that up. XD

[dwai]

Hi Astral,

 

From looking at the web site it's about teaching people fajin - many skilled martial artists will tell you that you don't need to understand qi (or even acknowledge it for that matter) to learn that as it is mainly a matter of body mechanics, form and intent. 'Internal' simply means that you use the body mechanics of your entire body to toss the opponent rather than by simply swinging an arm around, say, the shoulder joint. Their videos give you a taste of this.

 

I've been researching the CTMAA school in Skokie, IL myself for a while now. And their take seems very intriguing.

 

The style of Taiji I learn is Master Waysun Liao's Temple-style (very CMC-esque), but with heavy focus on single form practice (the long form is a tool to ensure that we can retain the flow through transitions). In our school too, the emphasis is on returning the power from the earth (so the opponent's power goes down the bone structure and returns via the connective tissue). But the precursor to doing power transfers is to practice Condensation breathing, where we condense the Qi into the bone marrow.

 

I also recently discovered Master William CC Chen's (via Rick Barrett's book titled "Taiji Quan through the Western Gate") mechanism of the Three-nails. I have incorporated that into my practice and can tell you that it makes a genuine, palpable difference in both the physical as well the energetic structure of the practice. The legs are (as I discovered and so I've been told) the hardest to develop sensitivity and flow in. After incorporating the 3-nails method, I have seen distinct and clear difference in the quality of flow (which was there before, but not as refined).

 

I suspect that the "Pre-heaven method" is very much in line with the 3-nails method, since in the latter, the ball of the feet is where power is generated/issued from. According to Master Chen (from what I have understood), the dan tien is regulator, but the feet are the generator. Without using the Dan Tien, we cannot direct the power, but without using the feet, we cannot return the power effectively.

 

http://www.williamccchen.com/3nails.htm

Edited January 27, 2011 by dwai