devoid Posted January 30, 2011 Is it dangerous to proceed on your own? IMHO nothing in this life is really dangerous with oneself in the drivers seat if one is sensible about things and back of, regroup and think whenever somethings isn't quite right. I never had a master other than books (and I mean lots of them) in my spiritual endeavors. In other words, I would never agree with those who insist that one should have a teacher for the fully internal stuff. Don't get me wrong: a teacher is probably the best thing if one is both unsure and yet absolutely sure that one has found a teacher one can fully trust - if not however, IMHO one is better off on ones own, being able to piece ones own picture together with the pieces of the big puzzle one encounters on the way... Please feel free to disagree (I know many of you will) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted January 30, 2011 Is it dangerous to proceed on your own? IMHO nothing in this life is really dangerous with oneself in the drivers seat if one is sensible about things and back of, regroup and think whenever somethings isn't quite right. I never had a master other than books (and I mean lots of them) in my spiritual endeavors. In other words, I would never agree with those who insist that one should have a teacher for the fully internal stuff. Don't get me wrong: a teacher is probably the best thing if one is both unsure and yet absolutely sure that one has found a teacher one can fully trust - if not however, IMHO one is better off on ones own, being able to piece ones own picture together with the pieces of the big puzzle one encounters on the way... Please feel free to disagree (I know many of you will) Well... you are a product of your own experience, and vise versa... your experience is a product of your view. Really... it's wonderful to at least try to find a great teacher that has fully embodied the teachings you wish to embody. Seriously... The teacher will appear when the crack in the karmic shell has been opened. The teacher may come from other realms as well... who knows?? You will have your path... just definitely be sensible about your intentions... in everything! The right fruit will follow. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devoid Posted January 30, 2011 [...] The teacher will appear when the crack in the karmic shell has been opened. The teacher may come from other realms as well... who knows?? You will have your path... just definitely be sensible about your intentions... in everything! The right fruit will follow. Hi Vajrahridaya, I like this - thanks for posting 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) Hi Vajrahridaya, I like this - thanks for posting You are very welcome! It's good to read and read and read... during a time. I read (past tense) countless books, 100 to 200 pages a day even during intense practice in order to get to know the anthropological history of various traditions' spiritual masters! Edited January 30, 2011 by Vajrahridaya 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Niklas Posted January 30, 2011 Well... you are a product of your own experience, and vise versa... your experience is a product of your view. Really... it's wonderful to at least try to find a great teacher that has fully embodied the teachings you wish to embody. Seriously... The teacher will appear when the crack in the karmic shell has been opened. The teacher may come from other realms as well... who knows?? You will have your path... just definitely be sensible about your intentions... in everything! The right fruit will follow. Maybe it's worse to take a risk? While remaining sensible. Finding a good teacher is not the easiest thing... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gauss Posted January 30, 2011 As far as I understand it each school hs its own form of energy channel. I quote from Zhuan Falun(main book of Falun Dafa cultivation school) about the energy channels: http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/zfl_85.htm Heavenly Circuit () The Tao School teaches the great and small Heavenly Circuits, and we are going to explain what a Heavenly Circuit is. The Heavenly Circuit that we generally refer to is connecting the two energy channels of Renmai and Dumai. Such a Heavenly Circuit is a superficial Heavenly Circuit which does not account for anything but healing disease and keeping fit. This is called the Small Heavenly Circuit. Another Heavenly Circuit which is neither called the Small Heavenly Circuit nor the Great Heavenly Circuit is a form of Heavenly Circuit practised while sitting in meditation. It travels down in a circle inside one's body from the Niwan Point to Dantian (the Elixir Field), and moves up in a circle there as an interior circuit, which is the genuine Heavenly Circuit in the cultivation while sitting in meditation. After the formation of such a Heavenly Circuit, it will become a very powerful energy current, bringing all the channels to motion with one energy channel and opening up all other energy channels. The Tao School teaches the Heavenly Circuit while Buddhism does not. What does Buddhism teach then? When Sakyamuni taught his system of Dharma, he did not teach the practice of the exercise; he did not do that. However, his cultivation system also has its own form of cultivation evolution. How does the energy channels in Buddhism move? It starts to break through from the Baihui Point, and then it develops from the top of one's head down to the body in a spiral. In the end, it will bring all the channels to motion in this way. The central channels in Tantrism is also aimed at this goal. Some people have said that there is not a central channel. How then can Tantrism manage to cultivate the central channel? In fact, when all the channels of a human body are put together, they amount to no less than ten thousand in number just like blood vessels crisscrossing, but more than blood vessels in number. The space between the interior organs does not have blood vessels, but there are channels. They are connected from the top of one's head to every part of the body crisscrossing. They may not be straight initially, and will be opened up upon connecting with each other. Then, they will gradually be expanded, and slowly form a straight channel. This channel will be used as an axis that does self rotations to bring to motion several wheels of one's intention in level rotations, which also is aimed at opening up all the energy channels of the body. The cultivation of our Falun Dafa avoids using this method of one channel bringing all the channels to motion. We require that all the channels should be opened up in motion simultaneously from the very beginning. All at once, we cultivate on the very high level, avoiding the low-level stuff. If you wish to open up all the channels with one channel, your whole lifetime may not be enough to make it. Some people will have to cultivate for decades, and it is very difficult. A lot of cultivation systems believe that one lifetime will not be enough to make the cultivation. There are many people who cultivate the profound Great Laws and can extend their life span. Don't they believe in cultivating life as well? They can extend their life span to do the cultivation, and it will take quite a long period of time for them to do so. The Small Heavenly Circuit is basically aimed at healing disease and keeping fit while the Great Heavenly Circuit is the practice of the exercises, which means the real cultivation. The Great Heavenly Circuit the Tao School refers to does not come as violently as ours which opens up all the energy channels at once. The operation of the Great Heavenly Circuit in the Tao School is that of several channels which travel from the three Yin and three Yang of one's hands down to the feet, and to both legs, and all the way to the hair. They go all over the body once. This is considered to be the Great Heavenly Circuit in circulation. When the Great Heavenly Circuit is in motion, genuine cultivation will be brought into play. Therefore, some qigong masters do not teach the Great Heavenly Circuit, and what they teach is healing disease and keeping fit. Some people have also talked about the Great Heavenly Circuit, but they have not planted anything into your bodies. You can not open them up on your own. Not having been planted anything into your body, you will not be able to open them up with your intention. That is not as easy as talk! How could you open them up just like doing gymnastic exercises? Cultivation is one's own business, while the evolution of cultivation energy is done by one's master. Only when it is all planted into your body, can the interior "mechanism" play such a role. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juju Posted January 30, 2011 Is it dangerous to proceed on your own? IMHO nothing in this life is really dangerous with oneself in the drivers seat if one is sensible about things and back of, regroup and think whenever somethings isn't quite right. I never had a master other than books (and I mean lots of them) in my spiritual endeavors. In other words, I would never agree with those who insist that one should have a teacher for the fully internal stuff. Don't get me wrong: a teacher is probably the best thing if one is both unsure and yet absolutely sure that one has found a teacher one can fully trust - if not however, IMHO one is better off on ones own, being able to piece ones own picture together with the pieces of the big puzzle one encounters on the way... Please feel free to disagree (I know many of you will) The practice you are talking about, is Tummo. And well - it is a quite intense practice which really can change a lot. And it makes - if done correctly - a lot of smoke first; which means: health stuff can/will come up, emotional issues.... And yes: all this can be dangerous. It can be very intense, it can be hard, many many stuff can and will come up. In a physical way as well as in the psyche. Traditional Rinpoches never teach this technique to people, who did not do all the preliminary practices like prostatrions, Vajrasattva mantra etc beforehand. Because they see it as very dangerous. This is as well, why it is not so easy to find a teacher for this practice. I think: Some things cannot be learned from a book. As well as in the book quite some details are not described. I imagine as the book was not supposed to be an open manual for this practice. On the other hand, Glen Mullin writes in his book about the Six Yogas of Naropa (Tummo is the first one) that only who has the Karma will find information about those secret practices and - very important - understand the words. I personally did learn Tummo from a teacher- and I would not practice it out of a book. Having found my teacher helps me so much when obstacles in the practice arrive. It helps to have somebody you can ask when it gets hard. Somebody you fully trust, somebody who knows the practice completely. It really is an intense practice which will, done properly, change so much. I am happy to have this permission and guidance. Yes, I am absolutely convinced that the right teacher helps so much; makes everything so much easier! It is the absolutely very best thing that happened in my life: to find my teacher. As Vajrahridaya wrote: "The teacher will appear when the crack in the karmic shell has been opened". 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheshire Cat Posted January 30, 2011 I am happy to have this permission and guidance. Yes, I am absolutely convinced that the right teacher helps so much; makes everything so much easier! It is the absolutely very best thing that happened in my life: to find my teacher. Did you learn tummo in a 3 years retreat? Do you think that tummo can work even without ngodro-ing for months before and during retreat? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juju Posted January 30, 2011 Did you learn tummo in a 3 years retreat? Do you think that tummo can work even without ngodro-ing for months before and during retreat? I learned Tummo in quite a short time - not Ngondro before, in a 2 weeks-retreat. This probably is as well why I know (out of first hand experience) that many, many issues can come up I needed and still need to take my rests and do some other practice more intensively. I think I need this for working in a different, not so intense way with my blockages....purifying...giving strength to myself. So yes: Tummo can work without Ngondro. It is a very intense practice. Making purifiying practices beforehand makes it easier for yourself - Tummo is intense; and it does not ask if you are ready. It is fire, and it does what fire does: it burns, whatever is in front of it. Not thinking of the owner of the house, not accepting limits. This, I do think, is why it is considered dangerous. And this is, why one absolutely should rely on a very good teacher with personal experience; one who will teach what you need - and not just first a, then b, then c.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted January 31, 2011 "health stuff can/will come up, emotional issues.... And yes: all this can be dangerous. It can be very intense, it can be hard, many many stuff can and will come up. In a physical way as well as in the psyche." What JuJu said But as usual, this probably will not stop anyone. Once started, better to finish? If people want to do this stuff they'll do it but I really think (after having done it) that there are safer methods. Many of them are discussed here. In fact most of the foundational stuff is "out there" at this point and only requires practice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheshire Cat Posted January 31, 2011 But as usual, this probably will not stop anyone. Once started, better to finish? If people want to do this stuff they'll do it but I really think (after having done it) that there are safer methods. Many of them are discussed here. In fact most of the foundational stuff is "out there" at this point and only requires practice. I think that an advanced practioner of Qi-Gong can learn from a book (or even a damaged audiocassette) everything about an esoteric practice like Tummo. That's because He can feel clearly his energy moving and he is deep in touch with his inner self and his body. A completely beginner can only do exactly what masters teach, hoping that masters can see what he's moving and how. He haven't a good sensation of his energetic body. For this reason, practice could change slightly from person to person .. because practice is not God's word, but human's method. I'm interested in the safer method that can open tummo's channel . Because in this way we can comprehend clearly if the vajrayana's central channel is the spine or not. I believe it is the spine, but monks visualize it in front of the spine. Thanks 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) From my current understanding integrating the Indian, neidan & TCM models: Sushumna = chong mai (in neidan). These both refer to the central channel within the core of the body. Ida & pingala = blue dragon & white tiger meridians (in neidan). They intertwine along the central channel. Although, in TCM, the chong mai is located or accessed along the front of the body by points straddling the ren mai. But the ren mai & du mai =/= chong mai. And so opening your MCO =/= opening your chong mai/awakening your kundalini. These are 2 entirely different things. Opening the MCO will at the least greatly improve your health, while awakening your kundalini is a far more powerful, life-changing, spiritual transformation. Edited January 31, 2011 by vortex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheshire Cat Posted February 1, 2011 Interesting! Thanks! In the picture that you posted with the MCO, I can see that there are different points from HT Chia's system. For example, sperm palace is not present. The reason is that Chia try to integrate water path MCO( inside the spine) and fire path MCO (along the spine) ? There's a specific form of qigong shaped for the opening of Chong Mai channel? Or It is a natural process that eventually occurs when the fire path is cleared? Thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk Posted February 1, 2011 From my current understanding integrating the Indian, neidan & TCM models: Thanks for that excellent illustrated post! As I mentioned earlier, it's my understanding that sushumna continues above the head (and below the pelvis) as indicated by various esoteric art (also ime). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted February 1, 2011 Awesome pics! Thanks Vortex and Trunk Just imagining how old this stuff is tends to blow my mind (in a good way ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted February 1, 2011 As I mentioned earlier, it's my understanding that sushumna continues above the head (and below the pelvis) as indicated by various esoteric art (also ime). Ah, so...a field Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
