[TTC Study] Chapter 20 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 20

 

 

John Wu

 

Have done with learning,

And you will have no more vexation.

How great is the difference between "eh" and "o"?

What is the distinction between "good" and "evil"?

Must I fear what others fear?

What abysmal nonsense this is!

All men are joyous and beaming,

As though feasting upon a sacrificial ox,

As though mounting the Spring Terrace;

I alone am placid and give no sign,

Like a babe which has not yet smiled.

I alone am forlorn as one who has no home to return to.

All men have enough and to spare:

I alone appear to possess nothing.

What a fool I am!

What a muddled mind I have!

All men are bright, bright:

I alone am dim, dim.

All men are sharp, sharp:

I alone am mum, mum!

Bland like the ocean,

Aimless like the wafting gale.

All men settle down in their grooves:

I alone am stubborn and remain outside.

But wherein I am most different from others is

In knowing to take sustenance from my Mother!

 

 

 

English/Feng

 

Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles.

Is there a difference between yes and no?

Is there a difference between good and evil?

Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense!

Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox.

In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace,

But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am.

Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile,

I am alone, without a place to go.

Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing.

I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused.

Others are clear and bright,

But I alone am dim and weak.

Others are sharp and clever,

But I alone am dull and stupid.

Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea,

Without direction, like the restless wind.

Everyone else is busy,

But I alone am aimless and depressed.

I am different.

I am nourished by the great mother.

 

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

Agreement and angry rejection;

How great is the difference between them?

Beautiful and ugly;

What's it likethe difference between them?

The one who is feared by others,

Must also because of this fear other men?

Wild, unrestrained! It will never come to an end!

The multitudes are peaceful and happy;

Like climbing a terrace in springtime to feast at the tai-lao sacrifice.

But I'm tranquil and quietnot yet having given any sign.

Like a child who has not yet smiled.

Tired and exhaustedas though I have no place to return.

The multitudes all have a surplus.

I alone seem to be lacking.

Mine is the mind of a foolignorant and stupid!

The common people see things clearly;

I alone am in the dark.

The common people discriminate and make fine distinctions;

I alone am muddled and confused.

Formless am I! Like the ocean;

Shapeless am I! As though I have nothing in which I can rest.

The masses all have their reasons [for acting];

I alone am stupid and obstinate like a rustic.

But my desires alone differ from those of others

For I value drawing sustenance from the Mother.

 

 

Questions? Comments?

Edited January 28, 2011 by Marblehead

[anatman]

not that it makes any difference to most,but henricks is the easiest to read.

 

the"mother"i am guessing is refering to the tao(although that really doesn't seem right).anyway,my take on it is that it means to "let go"(ok i'm looking at it from a buddhist stand point also).a lesson i need to practice everyday.

 

i am probably way off on this and will be corrected soon.such is learning.the tao that can be understood isn't the true tao?

[Marblehead]

not that it makes any difference to most,but henricks is the easiest to read.

 

the"mother"i am guessing is refering to the tao(although that really doesn't seem right).anyway,my take on it is that it means to "let go"(ok i'm looking at it from a buddhist stand point also).a lesson i need to practice everyday.

 

i am probably way off on this and will be corrected soon.such is learning.the tao that can be understood isn't the true tao?

 

Yes, I think the "Mother" can be either Tao or 'mother earth' (nature).

 

I would agree with you in that the over-lying theme would be pointing toward letting go of attachments. I think it also speaks to the concept of the individual living according to their own principles and not needing to be 'one of the crowd'.

 

Yeah, Hendricks' translation is my favorite although there are a couple problems I have even with his. (I ain't tellin' though. Hehehe.)

[manitou]

Yes, between Ah! and Ough! there is a world of difference. Ah! is that which is pleasing from our current perspective. Ough! is that which is repugnant from our current perspective. But it is all so relative! it is only the perspective that changes, not the circumstances. It is all in our mind. We can choose our mindset from day to day and choose the attitude we live with daily. If we choose an attitude of love for everyone (admittedly a difficult mindset to stay in) we end up with a day with many Ah's! and few 'Ough's!

 

The idea that the Tao suggests that learning should be banished often sticks in the craw of people who value learning, as we all do. But learning also breeds arrogance if we aren't careful. If only we can utilize the learning without the ego-need to show it. Perhaps putting a bunch of initials after our names isn't the very best thing for our soul progression. When we become learned we often attach too much importance to our own knowledge and cease having an open mind for new knowledge to come in. After all, I do have initials after my name, or (in our particular case) I am a Master of some sort, and therefore I have the information for you, nobody has the information for me, I've got it all. Who among us cannot relate to this Catch 22?

 

That which men fear is indeed to be feared. It is to be feared because these things are real to them. To one that realizes that we are the great Manifester and we manifest all from the inside out, there is nothing to fear at all. All we need to do is to Be Here Now and be the witnesses. Distant is the dawn of awakening for the ones that are fearful; those enlightened to the Oneness lack fear.

 

The people of the world still have emotional attachment. They are the merry-makers. The Sage is more akin to the newborn babe, the True Self. Like a new-born babe that cannot yet smile, as personality and appropriate responses are not yet learned in the infant. The Sage is a blank slate, no judgment, no preconceptions. It is because of this that he has clarity, with no anomalies of personality to distort his vision.

 

The people of the world have enough and to spare.... Look around us. The quest is for more and more useless possession, for fame, for fortune. Those are the vulgar; they are clever and self assured by nature. The Sage, on the other hand, is adrift, muddled, nebulous. He is Here Now. He is waiting for the Plan to be unfolded to him in the right moment. When the moment arrives, he plucks the fruit of the Plan. He is muddled because when people ask his opinion he often has none. He wears the world like a loose garment. He does not judge.

 

The Mother. Oh my God. This is the thing the shaman rests in. When we breathe in the air of the Mother, we know it is Her. Each and every breath we can feel the form of the Mother. When we lay on the grass, we grab onto her warm green hair and smell the earth, knowing that every cell in our body came from Her. We know that She has consciousness; we're proving that every day. We are Her. She is total Love to us - all our nourishment is from Her. We abuse her; she is capable of showing her discomfort through her various manifestations, and do they not seem to align with ours? The condition of the Mother and the condition of Man seem to be very closely aligned, if we watch the news at all.

[Marblehead]

You did a rather nice job with that Manitou.

 

Thanks for taking the time and sharing.

[anatman]

i agree,although a little dramatic in spots.

 

and thank you marblehead.i hesitated about referring to"mother"as earth(even tho that was my first thought).in some of the vedic traditions"mother "can indeed refer to earth,and sometimes goddess(not one of my definitions).i really had to question as to whether that would/would not be personifying tao,and therefore be an incorrect interpretation.you gave me a maybe on that,which i appreciate.

 

i have difficulty with anything that has been translated,no matter who does it.the more it's translated,imo,the further away from the original meaning it becomes.however,reality in this existence is i am limited as to what languages i can read,so it's pretty much english.

 

again,thank you both

[Marblehead]

i hesitated about referring to"mother"as earth(even tho that was my first thought).in some of the vedic traditions"mother "can indeed refer to earth,and sometimes goddess(not one of my definitions).i really had to question as to whether that would/would not be personifying tao,and therefore be an incorrect interpretation.you gave me a maybe on that,which i appreciate.

 

There was a translation I read many years ago where in the introduction the translator stated that there were seven places in the TTC where Lao Tzu had used the word "mother" when referring to Tao.

 

This is why I understand how the Taoist Philosophy so easily became a religion through the personification of Tao.

 

Personally, I like to keep the concept of the feminine linked to Yin. This way any mention of the feminine refers to the negative aspect of the polarity of Chi rather than referring to the female.

 

I can deal with the word "mother" through the understanding of the concept "Tao gave birth to ... " The female is the only sex that gives birth. And of course, after a live birth the female becomes a mother. But I also like the image of returning to the mother as a place of rest. The "Valley Spirit", if you will.

[Tree Stump]

The whole chapter is wonderfully poetic (and not just the Mother metaphor)... I think the message appears quite simple: Stay grounded! Look deeply into the nature in things and do not create superficial distinctions or other abstractions that do not relate to the Tao. Trust and reflect only your source, the Tao.

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

The whole chapter is wonderfully poetic ...

- TS

 

Agree.

[cheya]

Chapter 20, translated by Ellen M Chen:

From: The Tao Te Ching, a New Translation with Commentary.

 

 

Eliminate learning so as to have no worries

Yes and no, how far apart are they?

Good and evil, how far apart are they?

 

What the sages fear,

I must not fear.

I am the wilderness before the dawn.

 

The multitude are busy and active,

LIke partaking of the sacrificial feast,

Like ascending the platform in spring;

I alone am bland,

As if I have not yet emerged into form.

Like an infant who has not yet smiled,

Lost, like one who has nowhere to return.

 

The multitudes all have too much;

I alone am deficient.

My mind is that of a fool,

Nebulous.

 

Worldly people are luminous;

I alone am dark.

Worldly people are clear-sighted;

I alone am dull.

I am calm like the sea,

Llke the high winds I never stop.

 

The multitudes all have their use;

I alone am untamable like lowly material.

I alone am different from others.

For I treasure feeding on the Mother.

 

 

Chen's general comment on this chapter:

"Chapter 15 describes the Taoist as self-effacing and self-regnerating in imitation of the dynamic non-being of Tao. This chaper is a mystic's self-portrayal. Amidst the hustle and bustle of the crowd glorying in the life of consciousness cut off from the unconscious, the Taoist mystic abides by the root of all beings. The six sections [of the chapter] are variations on the same theme; in each the mystic contrasts those who dwell in the realm of distinction to his own psychological oneness with the Mother."

 

Chen then includes 2 more pages of more detailed commentary on this chapter.

 

Ellen Chen's extensive scholarly commentary is the most useful I've come across in understanding the text, both from the perspective of ancient times and from modern language use as well.

(Liao's is still the most useful for me in terms of practice, a skeletal how-to manual.)

[Marblehead]

Hi Cheya,

 

I like the translation except for this (the bolded):

 

 

What the sages fear,

I must not fear.

I am the wilderness before the dawn.

 

 

It is a sage who is speaking. I think the first line should read:

 

"What the multitude fear,"

 

Other than that, I like it.

[cheya]

Hi Cheya,

 

 

It is a sage who is speaking. I think the first line should read:

 

"What the multitude fear,"

 

Other than that, I like it.

 

Hi Marblehead,

Yes, I agree. I trip over that sentence every time, and Chen's commentary sounds like she does mean " what the multitudes fear".

Possibly a mistake in the text itself. It just doesn't fit!

 

Have you read any of her commentaries?

[Marblehead]

 

Have you read any of her commentaries?

 

A few years ago she was brought to my attention so I read a little of her stuff. Regretfully I can't remember enough to even comment on it. I do recall that I did enjoy some of the work.

 

But yes, that could have been just an editor/publisher error.

 

We could ask her. Hehehe. If I remember correctly she does have a place on the internet where she can be contacted.

[Mr. T]

[Marblehead]

 

somewhat different at places but still has the same feel, i suppose. thanks again...

 

 

What the people fear, I cannot be unafraid

 

 

Yeah, different words, theme intact.

 

That bolded line bugs me. Hehehe.

 

(Of course, I have a 'thing' with the concept of fear so it might just be a personal thing.)

[Tree Stump]

Yeah, different words, theme intact.

 

That bolded line bugs me. Hehehe.

 

(Of course, I have a 'thing' with the concept of fear so it might just be a personal thing.)

 

A bit confusing really, we have:

 

"Must I fear what others fear? What abysmal nonsense this is!"

"Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense! "

 

-- Straightforward: I shouldn't fear what others fear (perhaps without evaluating it myself first)

 

"The one who is feared by others, Must also because of this fear other men? "

 

-- Entirely different meaning. In other words: The scary one shouldn't also be scared.

 

"What the sages fear, I must not fear."

 

-- Entirely different meaning. In other words: The wise one's fears are baseless.

 

"What the people fear, I cannot be unafraid"

 

-- That's a double negative. In other words I cannot ignore the fears of others.

 

 

 

So which is it?!!

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

Okay, so you got me fired up.

 

I went looking and found this translation by Octavian Sarbatoare.

 

The first lines read:

 

 

By removing the cause of suffering, suffering will disappear.

Both 'Yes' or 'No' are relative.

Be it considered as 'Good' or 'Bad',

The relativity of it still remains.

If other people are afraid of something,

Is this a good cause for us to be afraid as well?

The truth behind could be entirely different.

 

 

This makes sense in my mind. And actually, I have lived this for the past twenty or so years. And it is true, what people fear has very deep roots and the truth might well be something very different than the actual fear itself.

[Tree Stump]

This makes sense in my mind. And actually, I have lived this for the past twenty or so years. And it is true, what people fear has very deep roots and the truth might well be something very different than the actual fear itself.

 

Yeah I agree, that makes more sense. I found another similar interpretation from Legge (1891)

 

"What all men fear is indeed to be feared; but how wide and without end

is the range of questions (asking to be discussed)!"

 

As you said, in other words, don't take peoples ideas/fears as gospel.. look deeper.

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

Yeah I agree, that makes more sense. I found another similar interpretation from Legge (1891)

 

"What all men fear is indeed to be feared; but how wide and without end

is the range of questions (asking to be discussed)!"

 

As you said, in other words, don't take peoples ideas/fears as gospel.. look deeper.

 

- TS

 

Yeah, I saw Legge's and almost used it but kept looking to find something that felt better to me.

 

So what else can we be confused about?

[Tree Stump]

Yeah, I saw Legge's and almost used it but kept looking to find something that felt better to me.

 

So what else can we be confused about?

 

The question I have, though, is whether these are different translations, or are they interpolations? Is it really possible to look at the original Chinese and discern which translation is more accurate, or do you just look for the most consistent interpretation?

 

For example it seems that some translations have inserted Buddhist concepts where perhaps they weren't intended - at least it appears that way. But by what text can we test these things?

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

The question I have, though, is whether these are different translations, or are they interpolations? Is it really possible to look at the original Chinese and discern which translation is more accurate, or do you just look for the most consistent interpretation?

 

For example it seems that some translations have inserted Buddhist concepts where perhaps they weren't intended - at least it appears that way. But by what text can we test these things?

 

- TS

 

That sir, has been and still is discussed by those with the knowledge.

 

First, we (the world) still do not have a complete original document. The language that what is available is a dead language with very little source reference between old and current.

 

In many cases I would suggest that what is presented is interpolation instead of direct translation.

 

And I do agree that many of the earlier translations were corrupted with Buddhist concepts because many of the earlier translations were done by Brits who already had much knowledge of Buddhism. I don't think it was intentional but rather incidental.

 

Henricks translation is supposed to be one of the better scholastic translations but then so is Derek Lin's and one can see great differences between the two translations.

 

I rely on feeling a lot when reading different translations. I try to imagine a conversation and how the concepts would be presented if I were having a one-on-one conversation with Lao Tzu. If something doesn't sound logical and reasonable then I question it. Of course, we have to work through the paradoxes in the TTC when we are questioning because even though it might not sound reasonable on the surface when we look deeper into the individual words we find truth in what appeared to be an untruth on the surface.

 

I try to place no value judgements on any of the translations but I do apply my concept of usefulness to the translations. If it is useful to me then I can accept it, if not then I leave it for someone else.

 

Enough already! Hehehe.

[Tree Stump]

I definitely agree on the point about the paradoxes... it's easy to say something is right or wrong, but I'm sure Lao Tzu would have something to say about that also. The trick, I guess, is to discern intentional paradox from inconsistency caused by faulty translation or a hidden agenda.

 

And what a fun project that would be.

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

And what a fun project that would be.

 

- TS

 

Yeah. I read my first translation nearly thirty years ago and am still enjoying reading different translations and discussing it and the philosophy of its roots.

[manitou]

The thing about the TTC is that the interpretation is completely dependent upon the degree of spiritual understanding of the interpreter.

[Mr. T]

oooohhh, this is really starting to get interesting!!

 

a couple points to add from my limited experience. first, i remember derek's discussion of this chapter and he did pay special attention to the lines pointed out. "what the people fear, i cannot be unafraid". and i remember him giving the exact interpretation that has been discussed here...that the sage values the opinions and perspectives of people and if they have a fear of something it may well be for a very good reason and to at least approach said thing with caution. his comments in the book end with the acknowledgment of value judgments.

 

the second point was that i was of the impression that the taiwanese dialect is pretty close to ancient chinese. as a result, some of the meaning an characters used in the original texts can be found in taiwan today. is this information correct? if it is, some of the characters and meanings of the original chinese is still used in some modified form today. again, any more info on this would be very appreciated. thanks all!

 

p.s.- and as far as the use of the word fear, i agree that word can be somewhat loaded...but you have to admit that the strength of the word can be a good motivator and attention getter...

Edited February 2, 2011 by Mr. T