[TTC Study] Chapter 20 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

p.s.- and as far as the use of the word fear, i agree that word can be somewhat loaded...but you have to admit that the strength of the word can be a good motivator and attention getter...

 

Hi Mr. T,

 

I think we have a few members here who can speak to the language question you raise. (I'm not one of them.) Perhaps one will wonder into this thread and make comment.

 

Regarding your p.s., I suggest that there is a difference between fear and respect. I respect what a poisonous snake can do but I don't fear them. If I am in there environment (and I have been on a few occasions) I offer them respect by making noise to let them know I am in the area so that I don't surprise them and they go into a defensive mode.

 

I think that nearly all fears can be eliminated with the proper application of respect. (Doesn't necessarily mean positive respect though. An example is a person who is by nature violent and starts drinking. This person will cause problems if given the opportunity. Respect his/her condition and avoid problems.)

[Tree Stump]

I think that nearly all fears can be eliminated with the proper application of respect.

 

Fear is just the impulse to escape a situation that may be hazardous. Having a gut feeling of fear is natural, and often useful. Sometimes it's misinformed, true, but then again so are our thoughts - so why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

Fear is just the impulse to escape a situation that may be hazardous. Having a gut feeling of fear is natural, and often useful. Sometimes it's misinformed, true, but then again so are our thoughts - so why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

 

- TS

 

Yes, that is a fair arguement almost always presented to me whenever I speak to the concept of fear. And I do place value on the arguement.

[Tree Stump]

Yes, that is a fair arguement almost always presented to me whenever I speak to the concept of fear. And I do place value on the arguement.

 

But I will add that I agree with you that the goal should be to bring both respect and our emotional reactions into harmony... I think that's what really you're getting at, right?

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

But I will add that I agree with you that the goal should be to bring both respect and our emotional reactions into harmony... I think that's what really you're getting at, right?

 

- TS

 

Hehehe. Yes, you are correct. I guess it is how we react to dangerous situations and conditions that show most completely where we are in our development.

[Mr. T]

i see your point marble, but i tend to see stump's pov more easily. fear is natural. yes, without proper respect for something we may find ourselves in a dangerous situation. however lau tzu, i feel, was speaking directly to the things that we should use caution when dealing with. and you must admit that most people do not respect things...they either get extremely fearful, or they go the other way and get overly confident, and thus wind up in trouble as well. so fear is a very necessary and real emotion...perhaps lau tzu could have said,

 

"what the people fear, i will treat with respect"??

 

heheh, have a good one

[Marblehead]

Hi Mr. T,

 

Yeah. What's that called? Moderation? Yeah, that's it. Excessiveness is normally not so good.

 

You have a great day too. (The Tao is raining on me at the moment. For me, that's good.)

[Tree Stump]

Talking of moderation... one of my favorite quotes is from Nabokov, "The trick to enjoying life is not to enjoy it too much".

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

"The trick to enjoying life is not to enjoy it too much". - TS

 

I like that.

[The Observer]

i see your point marble, but i tend to see stump's pov more easily. fear is natural. yes, without proper respect for something we may find ourselves in a dangerous situation. however lau tzu, i feel, was speaking directly to the things that we should use caution when dealing with. and you must admit that most people do not respect things...they either get extremely fearful, or they go the other way and get overly confident, and thus wind up in trouble as well. so fear is a very necessary and real emotion...perhaps lau tzu could have said,

 

"what the people fear, i will treat with respect"??

 

heheh, have a good one

 

To my knowledge fear comes from a lack of wisdom/confidence. I have had a few lessons with fear and while a useful tool there's better ways of dealing with, or reacting to dangerous situations.

Edited February 6, 2011 by The Observer

[Tree Stump]

To my knowledge fear comes from a lack of wisdom/confidence. I have had a few lessons with fear and while a useful tool there's better ways of dealing with, or reacting to dangerous situations.

 

Sometimes fear IS wisdom, mixed with value for our life. Sometimes fear is an objective assessment of our strength that delusional self-confidence obscures. I don't think we should ever underestimate our intuition, it's something our body has built up for millions (if not billions) of years. Our 'wisdom' is something we've built up for a couple of decades at best.

 

- TS

[The Observer]

Sometimes fear IS wisdom (...)

Haha, good point!

 

mixed with value for our life. Sometimes fear is an objective assessment of our strength that delusional self-confidence obscures. I don't think we should ever underestimate our intuition, it's something our body has built up for millions (if not billions) of years. Our 'wisdom' is something we've built up for a couple of decades at best.

 

- TS

 

Hmmm, you make more good points lol. However, I don't believe that just because we've been operating a certain way for a long time, we should just continue in that fashion. After all, what is the Tao but change itself?

[Marblehead]

Nice discussion y'all. Actually, both sides of the discussion are valid. But I will suggest that knowledge, understanding and wisdon can replace almost all fears. This takes lots of time and many experiences though.

[dawei]

The opening lines have a few comparisons and ends with "So desolate! How limitless it is!!" - Tr. Derek Lin. Realize that the older text which Hendrick uses has a few more characters.

 

But here is the text, the paren part is what the older text may convey:

 

人 之 所 畏

PEOPLE THAT-WHICH FEAR

That which people fear

(people who are feared)

 

不可 不畏 (-older text: 亦 不可以 不畏 人)

NOT CAN NOT FEAR (ALSO NOT CAN NOT FEAR PERSON)

Cannot be not feared, or one cannot but fear

(also cannot but fear other people)

 

荒 兮 其 未央 哉 (- older text: 朢 呵 亓 未央)

BARREN THAT NOT ENDED/CONCLUDED! (GAZED-EXPRESSION ITS NOT ENDED)

So desolate! How limitless it is! - Tr. Lin

(Wild, unrestrained! It will never come to an end!) - Tr. Hendricks

 

荒 = Barren, wasteland, desolate, storage, uncultivated, ridiculous, far, remote

未央 - not ended or concluded; no limit; also, not yet dawned

 

The idea of "dawn" is not often used. Chen uses it but I prefer Lin Yutang's useage:

I am the wilderness before the dawn. - Tr. Chen

But, alas, distant yet is the dawn (of awakening)! - Tr. Yutang

 

I think Yutang ties back to the previous lines better and drives home the main point; The difference between yes and no, good and evil, fear and not fear is not to be worried and made distinctions of (Eliminate learning so as to have no worries - Tr. Chen). This transitions well to the next lines where the Sage shows how he is unlike the rest; the rest are 'distant' from a true awakening of this Way.

 

edited: I had that 'dawn' was often used. I meant it is not often used.

Edited February 26, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Very good!

 

Henricks translates the Guodian strips of this chapter, lines 6 & 7 as follows:

 

6 Those who are feared by the people

7 Must also, because of this, fear others.

 

 

To this:

 

But, alas, distant yet is the dawn (of awakening)! - Tr. Yutang

 

This concept is in the Chuang Tzu as well. I forget which translation but it was said that the dawning may be a million years from now or a Sage may arrive tomorrow and begin the awakening. (I paraphrased that, of course.)

 

 

And yes, one of the reasons I prefer Henricks translation is that he does try to identify the flow of the concepts from one chapter or section to the next. Kinda like starting at the beginning and ending at the end rather than starting in the middle and going all over the place.