Fun conversation from www.gnostic-community.org

[John Zen]

Here is a thread that I started concerning Samael Aun Weor and his claim of Sexual Alchemy:

 

http://gnostic-community.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3798

 

My 1st post on the second page is the best way I can put it.

 

I will discuss these things with you all if you wish. Maybe I'm wrong. I just thought it was an interesting discussion, maybe others may find some entertainment in reading it.

 

Not trying to ruffle any feathers; just posting what I think is an entertaining discussion...

Edited January 28, 2011 by John Zen

[Birch]

Awesome. Reminds me of a TTB's discussion thread or three or four

[Aetherous]

I agree with your view, John Zen.

[gendao]

If "Selfless Love" is the secret that Jesus taught...then why did he teach it only as a secret to his disciples?

[Enishi]

Samael Aun Weor and his followers = Unbalanced Christian Fundamentalist/Occultist hybrid fools.

[Seth Ananda]

The Gospel Of Philip has some of Jesus's teachings on the sacred nature of the Bridal Chamber. Its a great read

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

The reason we have no evidence for Jesus teaching sexual alchemy is that we have no evidence for Jesus actual having a corporeal existence and being a historical being. That does not detract from the gnostic power of the Christ, however.

[.broken.]

My understanding of Master Samael's spiritual practices is imperfect.

 

I would like to take the opportunity to share my thoughts on the matter.

 

In Master Samael's viewpoint the alchemy provides the raw materials for both the annihilation of the ego and the raising of the kundalini. The objective is to raise the level of one's consciousness for the benefit of all living beings. Sexual alchemy has been taught throughout the ages and what Master Samael did was collate and re-distribute sacred knowledge - of which sexual alchemy is only a fraction, yet a very important one in his eyes.

 

Many 'masters' talk openly about the effects of ejaculation and the majority certainly advise caution, particularly if the emissions are excessive in frequency, and those who don't talk openly about it usually speak through actions (initiated monks are frequently abstinent).

 

Whether one's belief is in ascended masters and demons or in the view that everything is 'mind' does not matter. The proof of alchemy - like all things - is surely in the tasting of the pudding. Whether Jesus taught it or not is irrelevant.

 

Peace be with you,

James

[Cheshire Cat]

In Master Samael's viewpoint the alchemy provides the raw materials for both the annihilation of the ego and the raising of the kundalini. The objective is to raise the level of one's consciousness for the benefit of all living beings.

 

The final goal is immortality. In the pathway you must develop self-sacrifice to reach a higher state.

Samael stuff is waste material from outer source.

 

What a daoist qi-gong practitioner can see immediately is that Samael tells his disciple to practice retention during sexual intercourse... the problem is "what about the channel?": you should open your psychic channel first... and they should be greatly open! Otherwise dense sexual energy cannot pass.

Samael never speak about channel to open... just do the practice until one day you get sick...

 

The other things from Samael are pseudo-esoterism: ritual taken from O.T.O., fantasy about tibetan masters and a mythical lineage from which Samael claim to attain his knowledge... ask Dalai Lama, about him... and then laugh loudly!

 

That is not esoterism

[markern]

The Gospel Of Philip has some of Jesus's teachings on the sacred nature of the Bridal Chamber. Its a great read

 

To me it sounded like the bridal chamber was teh central channel and the intercourse was mixing of heavenly and earthly energies in the cetnral channel and balancing fusing of the internal masculina dn feminine. You don`need a sexual partner to do that work but it could help.

 

The final goal is immortality. In the pathway you must develop self-sacrifice to reach a higher state.

Samael stuff is waste material from outer source.

 

What a daoist qi-gong practitioner can see immediately is that Samael tells his disciple to practice retention during sexual intercourse... the problem is "what about the channel?": you should open your psychic channel first... and they should be greatly open! Otherwise dense sexual energy cannot pass.

Samael never speak about channel to open... just do the practice until one day you get sick...

 

The other things from Samael are pseudo-esoterism: ritual taken from O.T.O., fantasy about tibetan masters and a mythical lineage from which Samael claim to attain his knowledge... ask Dalai Lama, about him... and then laugh loudly!

 

That is not esoterism

 

From what I have read I don`t like this Samael guy but I tihkn you are wrong in what you say about his teachings on sex vs taoist teachings. As far as I understand what he advocated was similar to karezz which means the couple rmeain more or less still iwhtout anymovement, they keep the breathing deep and the energy cool and do nothing to increase arousal or anything cnciously to move energy. Once you do this for long enough and many enough ays in succession the enrgy starts to move by itself in a natural pattern going from the mans base chakra into that of the female, ascends to her heart chakra where it is sent back to the male and then it goes down to his base again and arround. Because this movement is based only on total relaxation your channels open like they do in stilness meditaiton more or less. Most of the taoist traditions teach having sex in a way that makes the sexual energy rather hot and arroused and thus one needs techniques like locks and orbiting to avoid ejaculation and to make the energy go where it is suposed to. One also needs to, as you say to have open enough channels and some skill in alchemy to balance out the energy or the energy would do damage. As cool as the sexual energy is in karezza it does not do damage and it goes straight up to the higher centers in a natural transformative manner. If you go to reuniting.info you will find the experience of tons of epople with karezza- THey have found massive health benefits (think double the effects of long term celibacy), remarkable stability in theie realtionships with stable sexual attraction and stable love, and an increase in perosnal and energetic balance that is so great for most t is a radical shift. THis is coupled with close to zero negative effects found over years of practicing by a high number of people. THe reason is that the energy is kept rather cool (way away from the point of no return no at 9.9 or 9 as many taoists would recomend) and everything moves organicly in its own time. For the most part I think a lot of the taoist teachings are based on being at a too high arousal level and so needing to add in stuff for balance. The danger comes from too arroused energy not from moderately aroused sexual energy a distinction that is not clear in most of the toist teachings. Compare the results at reuniting.info to that of most taoist sexual teachings and you will see that it is only the taoist (and tantric) apraoches that experience the troubles you speak of.

 

That said it seems some of the taoist and some of the tantric schools advocate an aproach that keeps the energy at the same level of arousal as in karezza wihtout techniques. At reuniting.linfo they have a couple of discussions about neotaosim, neotantra and karezza that go into this.

[Aetherous]

.

Edited February 24, 2011 by center

[markern]

Jesus taught the descent of grace through forgiveness, in addition to taking on the qualities of perfection/God. He did teach raising awareness, but not raising the unconscious (sexual energy). In my view, he was attempting to save people from the path of ascension or raising the serpent, which is unnecessary, inferior, and very problematic. Ascent versus descent...they are opposing paths with different results.

 

Power first, wisdom second and mercy last is the path of alchemy or ascension. This was the old way, which caused tons of problems in the world, if you read the OT or the book of revelation in the NT. Mercy first, wisdom second, and power last...this is the descent of grace, which Jesus talked about.

 

This is just my personal view at the moment...I don't want to put words in Jesus' mouth or claim to know anything. Just sharing ideas.

 

THats interesting! IF you can exemplify it more with bible quotes and stuff I would apreceate it a lot.

[Aetherous]

.

Edited February 24, 2011 by center

[markern]

Here are two verses that I like, which are really simple...the first from the OT and the second from the NT:

 

 

 

The Bible is totally complex, and even the greatest scholars don't completely understand it, in my opinion. Lots of contradictions, lots of old mysticism whose traditions may be dead today. I like to follow what seems most beneficial, based on my personal experience in other traditions.

 

If you study the stories in the OT, and the teachings in the NT, ask a lot of questions within, and make a lot of mistakes in your path...then you can begin to understand the big picture. But that's not entirely necessary if you just understand the main point of the NT: continually forgive.

 

To relate it to another tradition, since not everyone jives with Christianity...it's like ho'oponopono that Kahuna perform. Or like developing compassion which Tibetan Buddhists focus on. Truly living that each moment is the highest path, and needs no preparation. It is higher than enlightenment, in my view.

 

Thanks. Hows that different from enlightenment?

 

But it does nto seem like anyone understands this very well or gets it to the level where you reach elightenment. If you look at christain monks their techniques of prayer and cultivating love for good takes enldess amounts of time. I read one monk say the dark night usually takes 10 years to get through in his tradition. If they did vipassana much less time would be necesarry to get through it.

[Owledge]

I have an interesting exercise suggestion for people:

Watch these two videos:

"Zeitgeist" (at least the first of three parts)

"Sex - The Secret Gate to Eden"

 

and then figure out how both can be valid.

[Sunya]

I have an interesting exercise suggestion for people:

Watch these two videos:

"Zeitgeist" (at least the first of three parts)

"Sex - The Secret Gate to Eden"

 

and then figure out how both can be valid.

 

I saw both and don't understand the relation. Can you clarify?

[Owledge]

I saw both and don't understand the relation. Can you clarify?

Hm, the relation should be obvious. It was an encouragement to abandon a tendency prevalent in thinking to see several profound views as competitors. (like Jesus as a spiritual teacher, as an astronomic/astrologic metaphor, as cryptic symbology)

Another example I know of is that there are at least three major alternative explanations for the occurence of cancer, and the people who developed those theories tend to see them as the ultimate, exclusive and complete truth, thus potentially disregarding the truth in other theories.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Hardyg

[Cheshire Cat]

As far as I understand what he advocated was similar to karezz which means the couple rmeain more or less still iwhtout anymovement, they keep the breathing deep and the energy cool and do nothing to increase arousal or anything cnciously to move energy. Once you do this for long enough and many enough ays in succession the enrgy starts to move by itself in a natural pattern going from the mans base chakra into that of the female, ascends to her heart chakra where it is sent back to the male and then it goes down to his base again and arround.

 

This is just fantasy: working with sexual energy is about "reverse" the natural flow, not enhancing a natural flow in relaxation.

 

The practice of karezza is usefull for increasing pleasure of the ejaculatory orgasm and to prolong the sexual intercourse. You can also connect with your partner...

but, if you do not ejaculate in these practice you could have some problems.

 

In sexual alchemy you need orgasm energy from both: women in gnosticism cannot have orgasms... where I can take female ying energy in this way??

 

The proof of uselessness of gnostic sexual practice is a friend of mine who plays this stuff from 2008. He cannot even astral project (second chackra siddhi, almost basic thing)...

He told this to me. Altough he is going on this practice with faith...

 

Gnostic talk about a Sacred Church in astral dimension which no one -of them- can reach !

ok... there's some egomaniacs who claims to have all kind of supernatural power, without demonstration obviously

Edited January 30, 2011 by DAO rain TAO

[Shen Chi Jing]

The reason we have no evidence for Jesus teaching sexual alchemy is that we have no evidence for Jesus actual having a corporeal existence and being a historical being. That does not detract from the gnostic power of the Christ, however.

The proof of alchemy - like all things - is surely in the tasting of the pudding. Whether Jesus taught it or not is irrelevant.

 

Exactly. If we accept the historical physical existence of Yeshua Ben Pandira without finding out on our own through our own direct experience, it would not be Gnosis. So the point then is to draw inspiration from the symbolic life-story of Yeshua, and if that inspiration helps us to attain the ability to view the Akashic Records for ourselves in order to see if he physically existed, then even better.

 

Anyhow, the Gnostic teaching is that Christ is Bodhicitta in all Its aspects (Outer, Inner, Secret, and Ultimate or Innermost-Secret), not a person.

 

 

The final goal is immortality. In the pathway you must develop self-sacrifice to reach a higher state.

Samael stuff is waste material from outer source.

 

What a daoist qi-gong practitioner can see immediately is that Samael tells his disciple to practice retention during sexual intercourse... the problem is "what about the channel?": you should open your psychic channel first... and they should be greatly open! Otherwise dense sexual energy cannot pass.

Samael never speak about channel to open... just do the practice until one day you get sick...

 

The other things from Samael are pseudo-esoterism: ritual taken from O.T.O., fantasy about tibetan masters and a mythical lineage from which Samael claim to attain his knowledge... ask Dalai Lama, about him... and then laugh loudly!

 

That is not esoterism

 

From what I've learned, Immortality (whether it is through the Gnostic Resurrection, or the Rainbow Body, or Light Body of Dzogchen) is the final goal in-so-far as it is the best means to assist sentient beings.

 

See: The 16 Bhumi's in relation to the degrees or levels of Objective Reasoning: Degindad, Ternoonald, Podkoolad, and Anklad.

 

In the Gnostic teachings, the Avadhuti or Sushumna is said to open for the Kundalini Serpent by way of the following: The Sahaja Maithuna or Karmamudra practice between a man and a woman who love each other; and through the retention of the semen, that is to say the refrained desire (avoidance of the orgasm) and the Fires of Love together will agitate the Kundalini Serpent and cause Her to awaken as to enter the Innermost Chamber of the Central Channel as to begin Its ascent through the 33 Degrees (in each of the Seven Serpents of Fire and the Seven Serpents of Light).

 

It is said that sparks of Kundalini can be sent up the side channels (Lalana and Rasana) with Pranayama, and that some Kundalini Fire can even be sent up the Central Channel with Tummo Breathing; however that the Kundalini Serpent Herself can only be awakened with Sexual Magic (i.e. the Central Channel Itself is said to have other channels within it; and I'd imagine that some Kundalini Fire can be sent up the outer channels of the Central Channel, whereas the Kundalini Serpent Herself enters the Innermost Channel of the Central Channel through Sexual Magic).

 

Also, Samael Aun Weor recommended that the Couple would do well to first prepare themselves through daily Meditation and through accustoming the body, channels, and chakras to Transmutation, before engaging in the Sahaja Maithuna/Karmamudra practice.

 

About the Dalai Lama, He and Samael Aun Weor agree with each other regarding Tantric Sexuality:

 

http://sacred-sex.org/search?q=Dalai+Lama

 

And it is said that Aleister Crowley's teachings are more from Papus and Jules Doinel; whereas Samael Aun Weor's teachings are more in agreement with the Occult teachings of Huiracocha (Arnold Krumm-Heller), Franz Hartmann, H.P. Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner, and Dr. Peithmann (Basilides). There is a lot specifically about this on the internet.

 

 

This is just fantasy: working with sexual energy is about "reverse" the natural flow, not enhancing a natural flow in relaxation.

 

Well, the centrifugal flow that most of us have going on is said to be unnatural, because it goes downward and outward (the downward/outward flow of sexual energy is a product of contrivance and mental and emotional afflictions, not its natural state).

 

In Yoga and Tantra practice, the sexual energy is made centripetal, that is inward and upward.

 

"Enhancing" the natural (centripetal) flow of our energies in relaxation, sounds more like Dzogchen; related to Thugs-rJe, rTsal, rGyan, gDangs, and Rolpa as the energetic expressions of our Ngowo (Essence) and Rangzhin (Nature). Although enhancing wouldn't be the best term here, because the Natural State of Dzogchen is the relaxing into the natural condition of our Being that is already present; and our Being (the Inseparability of Emptiness and Awareness) already knows the natural flow of our energies. However if we do not find ourselves in the Natural State, then Tantric methods like Yantra Yoga and such would be necessary to revert the flow of our Sexual Energy back towards its natural centripetal flow.

 

 

In sexual alchemy you need orgasm energy from both: women in gnosticism cannot have orgasms... where I can take female ying energy in this way??

 

No. The balance of the Three Forces (Yang, Yin, and Te or Tai Chi) are already there within the energetic contact of the masculine and feminine poles in the sexual act itself:

 

About "Retaining the Seed" Tantrism: The Three Types of Mercury

 

See also:

 

Marriage, Divorce, and Tantra

 

"Sometimes the inverted embrace is utilized, within which, for very sacred and symbolic reasons, the Yogini executes the active part. The Yogi represents the apparently motionless spirit while she, the Yogini, represents nature in motion. Thus, in the supreme moment of the sexual act when the orgasm is approaching, the Yogini performs the more terrible and violent sexual contractions in order to avoid the spasm and the orgasmic ejaculation. The Yogis take advantage of this moment for the most frightful concentration and the most remarkable meditation. This is how they attain Illumination, Ecstasy, Samadhi."

 

 

Sarva Mangalam

Edited October 15, 2011 by Shen Chi Jing

[michael245]

edit

Edited November 19, 2011 by michael245

[Shen Chi Jing]

Edited October 15, 2011 by Shen Chi Jing

[michael245]

Edit

Edited November 19, 2011 by michael245

[Shen Chi Jing]

UUHHHH!A fragment of the plato's republic was found inside of the Nagg Hammadi Library.

 

I think this is the first that I've heard this (I've not yet read the entire Nag Hammadi); but I do believe it, as it's not at all surprising.

 

 

Plato used the word gnosis too,as well as archons and demiurge.

 

True. Hence my above posting to a link related to Gnosis, Platonism, and Thomas Taylor.

 

 

But you still claim ancient gnostics had know idea what gnosis was,

 

Where did I claim such a thing?

 

The following is exactly what was actually said:

 

Not even all of the Ancient Gnostic sects agreed on what true Gnosis is, although I do think that many of them were legitimate.

 

In other words, many, if not most of the Ancient Gnostic sects were legit; however some of them were not. Which means that even some of the Nag Hammadi writings may not even be authentic. From one of the above links:

 

 

"Just so, there are many "Gnostics" today who are opposed to the "Gnosis" you uphold! They say it is not Gnosis, and what they believe is. And they write reams of books, which readers take as authorities. So who is right? How can a reader tell?

 

"What is in a name, anyway?

 

"And how can you tell what is what from reading some old books?

 

"Some call me a Gnostic, and criticize me. Some call themselves Gnostic, and say I am not. Do you think things were so different in past eras?

 

"Studying those old books at their literal level is like trying to get a meal from the ash of the oven."

"According to the early Gnostics" ... according to who? Are you referring to the suppositions and inventions of modern "scholars" who have never known anything but dusty papers and faded ink? Be aware that there were many diverse groups long ago, and many left behind fake documents... many documents were inventions designed to discredit the real Gnostics... and many documents were simply written by the crazed or insane...

 

What is worse, is the modern "experts" who speak as if they were there and know the real Mysteries!

 

It is astonishing to read the outrageous interpretations given to the ancient scriptures... how can anyone take these scholars as authorities?

 

The real Gnosis has never been written, and the modern books and scholars have invented so many false doctrines and concepts...

 

The real Gnosis is the direct experiential knowledge of the consciousness, which when written becomes like the shadow of a bird that one longs to see, but it is gone... to know real Gnosis, one must fly.

 

The real science to discover Gnosis has only been hinted at in the last several thousand years... and the introduction to that science was only written down in the last fifty years, and by one man...

 

Having said that, let us also say that one should throw away all those "gnostic" books by scholars and professors: their stale and dry theories can only dry out the mind and heart of one who seeks the living, breathing wisdom of the Christ! And that fire will never enter into us through the intellect...

 

 

here I'll tell you what gnosis means ,it means"knowledge",and then you still you claim there are a such thing as gnostic practices,ha,there is no such thing as gnostic practices,none in the NHL.

 

That's because the Gnostic practices were not taught publicly in those days (when the Nag Hammadi texts were first written). It was necessary to receive the Initiations for performing the Gnostic practices for achieving what is described in the Gnostic scriptures. It's like with Vajrayana Buddhism. In most cases you can't just pick up a Tantra, read it, and assume that you'll benefit much from it without receiving the commentary and empowerment for the related practice. Even now, the practices written in the books of Samael Aun Weor are First Chamber practices. There are still Second and Third Chamber practices that are not written in the publicly available books.

 

 

Samael Aun Weor believed he was "kalki" he was a bonified cult leader,let's not candy coat this fact,I would highly suggest nobody involve themselves in this new ager cult group.

 

Well of course not everyone who claims to be the Avatar of the New Era, is the said Avatar. Although someone has to be the Avatar, right?

 

"The world needed something new. The universal religion needed to manifest in a new form. Jesus was the initiator of that new era. Indeed, Jesus the Christ was the divine hero of the new age.

 

"The Nicene Council held in the year 325 A.D. did not create a new hero, as the materialistic swine suppose. In the Nicene Council, a doctrine and a man were officially recognized.

 

"The doctrine was primeval Christianity, today disfigured by the Roman Catholic sect. The man was Jesus. Many men had declared themselves Avatars of the new era; however, none of them except for Jesus had taught the doctrine of the new era. The facts speak for themselves, and Jesus spoke with facts; this is why he was recognized as the initiator of the new era."

 

The company "Glorian" is the same company that dog pedals his kooky sex alchemy concepts.

 

They're not any more "kooky" than the Sexual Alchemy practices described in the Hindu and Buddhist Tantras and Taoist Scriptures. In fact, they're the same thing, although clarified a bit more and explained in less cryptic language.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Shen Chi Jing

[michael245]

 

Well of course not everyone who claims to be the Avatar of the New Era, is the said Avatar. Although someone has to be the Avatar, right?

 

 

 

 

Jesus was not a historical person, so there's no need to debate new ager NEO gnostics like yourself that pay no heed to historical facts about classic gnostics.Samael Aun Weor claimed he was Kalki the avatar,his stupidity should be a clear warning for all truth seekers out there.

Edited October 15, 2011 by michael245

[Shen Chi Jing]

Jesus was not a historical person, so

 

Are you absolutely sure about this?

 

 

there's no need to debate

 

And may we both realize why this statement is so true.

 

 

"Until one really and truly knows one's own mind and can govern it with awareness, even if very many explanations of reality are given, they remain nothing more than ink on paper or matters for debate among intellectuals, without the possibility of the birth of any understanding of the real meaning...

 

"It is necessary to maintain a continuous present awareness without becoming distracted...

 

"Because the continuation in the presence of the true State (of Awareness) is the essence of all the Paths, the root of all meditations, the conclusion of all spiritual practices, the juice of all esoteric methods, the heart of all ultimate teachings, it is necessary to seek to maintain a continuous presence without becoming distracted. What this means is: do not follow the past, do not anticipate the future, and do not follow illusory thoughts that arise in the present; but turning within oneself, one should observe one's own true condition and maintain the awareness of it just as it is, beyond conceptual limitations..." - Namkhai Norbu, Tibetan Lama

 

 

new ager NEO gnostics like yourself that pay no heed to historical facts about classic gnostics.Samael Aun Weor claimed he was Kalki the avatar,his stupidity should be a clear warning for all truth seekers out there.

 

Believe whatever you want, if you want. I just hope you realize that ad-hominem attacks are easily seen for what they are.

 

And even though the teachings of Samael Aun Weor are indeed for the New Age of Aquarius, his doctrine is in fact the very opposite of what is taught by those who are commonly known as new-agers. (And you also seem to have ignored the fact that I'd posted a link to Glorian's website about Samael Aun Weor's knowledge regarding the various Ancient Gnostic Schools, and the scriptures and teachings of those like the Ophites, Basilidians, Valentinians, Sethians, Satanians, Carpocratians, etc.)

 

The common new-ager's (kalkian personalities) approach, is a do-whatever-you-want and anything-goes mentatilty of which many who call themselves ("Classic") Gnostics are actually caught up in themselves. Many who call themselves Gnostics think that it's okay to enter Gnosis while existing as alcoholics, masturbators, homosexuals, lesbians, drug addicts, etc. But this is all self-deceit.

 

The Revolutionary teachings of Viras such as Swami Sivananda and Samael Aun Weor, for those with Thelema (Will-Power), are despised by kalkian personalities and pseudo-Gnostics.

 

 

Here's what Samael Aun Weor has to say about the views and actions of hippies and new-agers:

 

The Dionysian Wave

 

The Kalkian Personality

 

 

 

Sarva Mangalam

Edited October 27, 2011 by Shen Chi Jing