Fun conversation from www.gnostic-community.org

[konchog uma]

and i in turn will delete this nonsense

 

its better off that way anyway

Edited October 23, 2011 by anamatva

[michael245]

Twinner I noticed that you mentioned what science has to say about masterbation.Just curious,but have you ever seen that it has been scientifically proven that overweight fat people have cognitive disfunction and also have extremely low IQs.I seen it on cnn and fox news,there are many other articles online too written by scientists.I love scientifical facts.

Edited October 23, 2011 by michael245

[Birch]

Hmm, from what i minimally understand about any text, if "examples" there are, then at best they are metaphors "pointing" at actual situations in which one could actually "know" anything. I appreciate that texts may have been clouded/coded to dissimulate the real "stuff" of practices under heavy symbolism that only folks "with the keys" ought to be able to unlock. But see here, if you have moved anywhere close to "enlightenment" then no keys are needed and paradoxically the very same keys are allowed to fall into the hands of people who would seek to have power over others. A44holes:-)

 

Not saying you are one:-)

[Aaron]

Twinner I noticed that you mentioned what science has to say about masterbation.Just curious,but have you ever seen that it has been scientifically proven that overweight fat people have cognitive disfunction and also have extremely low IQs.I seen it on cnn and fox news,there are many other articles online too written by scientists.I love scientifical facts.

 

 

Do they come by these figures by examining overweight people who fail to make correct logical assumptions, sort of like seeing masturbation typed out correctly numerous times and still spelling it masterbation? Just curious, have you ever thought of a spellchecker?

 

Now to get back to your comment, yes I have seen the correlations that have been mentioned in regards to obesity and cognitive dysfunction, not disfunction by the way. Again, get a spell checker. I mean I know you've watched numerous shows and read all those articles, so shouldn't you have dysfunction down by now? Anyways back to the cognitive disfunction (crap now you have me doing it!) I would tend to say that the verdict is still out in that regards, especially with some recent studies done in Argentina and elsewhere that call into question what nature hormones and menopause have to play in these findings. (In case you missed it, since it wasn't on CNN, in three tests obese women on average scored higher than their normal weight counterparts.)

 

Anywho, in regards to masturbation, can you show me the studies where it says normal masturbation is unhealthy (not sinful mind you, but unhealthy)? See I leave the onus on you simply because nearly everyone here has heard, or knows, that modern science (and post dark age psychology) has found that normal masturbation not only releases endorphins and chemicals in the brain decreasing depression and anxiety, but also reduces your chances of prostate cancer. (True dat!) So my advice, whip it out, have a go, and help fight prostate cancer and depression. Spread the word, masturbation is healthy, fun, and free, and doing it regularly will help to keep you happy and prostate cancer free! Yay for masturbation!

 

You're trolling Mike, maybe you should go find a bridge to hide under, it might be more comfortable for you while you wait to jump out at people passing by. Hopefully while you're there you can check your spelling. Okay, I'm sorry if I joked about your spelling, but if you're going to attack something with such a lame argument, then you should expect a little humor at your expense.

 

Aaron

 

edit- At least I didn't make fun of your grammar... I mean you did say "I seen it on CNN and fox news"... oh wait. Crap I just did. Now I'm just depressed... Oh well, guess I'll have to go do something about that.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Twinner

[michael245]

Twinner, I was just explaining other scientifical facts,that's all,but you comment after me with all those paranoid assumtions.Thank you kind buddah man for correcting my bad grammar.I also forgot a question mark,it's okay though.Troller,of what speaketh thou?I am way too athletic to be a troller!

[Patrick Brown]

This old chestnut again albeit in a different guise. I decline to comment!

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Aaron]

Twinner, I was just explaining other scientifical facts,that's all,but you comment after me with all those paranoid assumtions.Thank you kind buddah man for correcting my bad grammar.I also forgot a question mark,it's okay though.Troller,of what speaketh thou?I am way too athletic to be a troller!

 

Trolling for responses... the way you phrased your comments is indicative of a troll, hence the reason I said you were trolling. Now to clarify a bit more about your comment, you mentioned the obesity research that was done, without mentioning that most clinicians agree that more testing is needed before we can fully understand what these findings mean. So you are taking a relatively new study, one most people might find offensive, so far as it classifies obese people as being less intelligent and unable to function at the same mental capacity as a normal weight person, and associating it with my comment regarding masturbation being healthy and that science and psychology have proven this to be true (over and over for the last four decades).

 

So you can feign ignorance or innocence, claim I'm paranoid, or anything else you want to do, but I'm not going to sit back and let you brain wash the people here into believing this nonsense about masturbation.

 

I will apologize however if you weren't intending to insinuate that masturbation was sinful, wrong, unhealthy, unspiritual, or anything like that, but my view of your comment and the previous comments you've made, including erroneous statements regarding Mohammed and other religions, leads me to believe you're really only helping Shen along with his hate mongering, only you're taking the side of the PC friendly faction.

 

Aaron

Edited October 23, 2011 by Twinner

[michael245]

Twinner,I see you have a hard time concentrating on words.If you go back and read my previous comments on this thread,you will notice I never tried to debate anyone about masturbation,the master-debating about this issue was between you and "Shen"...Sorry it took me so long to respond to your comment,I was too busy at the gym today,exercising my fit body with a bunch of hot women.ooh rah

Edited October 24, 2011 by michael245

[Aaron]

Twinner,I see you have a hard time concentrating on words.If you go back and read my previous comments on this thread,you will notice I never tried to debate anyone about masturbation,the master-debating about this issue was between you and "Shen"...Sorry it took me so long to respond to your comment,I was too busy at the gym today,exercising my fit body with a bunch of hot women.ooh rah

 

Well that's good, once you lose your weight, I'm sure you'll be much happier with your self image, especially since weight seems to be a big issue for you. You're much better at backpedaling then Shen, but hopefully you'll take his queue and just drop this conversation. You guys were expressing ideas laced with bigotry, let it go and we can go back to enjoying this forum without all the BS you guys keep tossing around in the name of facts and "truth". From the way you two have been handling yourselves in this thread, I'm pretty sure neither one of you would be able to recognize the truth if it hit you smack upside the hide.

 

Aaron

[Shen Chi Jing]

...Shen along with his hate mongering

 

Because you don't agree with it, it's "hate mongering"?

 

 

You're much better at backpedaling then Shen, but hopefully you'll take his queue and just drop this conversation.

 

I've not back-pedaled, because I still stand by everything I've said here. When I said "my mistake", it was only because I was mistaken in accidentally mixing up one of anamatva's posts with one of your posts, nothing more.

 

And there was no mention of me dropping this topic. Although I'm considering it....

[michael245]

Yeah,nobody listen to any of my comments anymore.Twinner is blaming me for leaving comments just to trigger certain responses from other members.I only trolled strawdog once,but I admitted it to him.

[Mokona]

Shen Chi Jing,

 

 

I'm not following your posts. Is masturbation supposed to be unhealthy or sinful, in your point of view? Also, In your spiriual system, what does masturbation prevent a person from doing/attaining? My own experience has been the opposite of unhealthy and i don't feel sinful for masturbating. Do you have to be taught how to feel guilt for wanting to masturbate or have an alcoholic drink?

 

The best spiritual and psychic experiences i've ever had have been sexual in nature - and opened up into love and full bodied bliss. In no way has this made meditation or chi kung practice more difficult for me. Please clarify what 'sin' means to you and why it is 'bad.' My only contact with Christianity has been through fliers handed to me or door to door Mormans and Jehovas Witness. It is starting to seem to me that it is so simple to leave out religion in chi kung and meditation.

[Birch]

Shen Chi Jing,

 

 

I'm not following your posts. Is masturbation supposed to be unhealthy or sinful, in your point of view? Also, In your spiriual system, what does masturbation prevent a person from doing/attaining? My own experience has been the opposite of unhealthy and i don't feel sinful for masturbating. Do you have to be taught how to feel guilt for wanting to masturbate or have an alcoholic drink?

 

The best spiritual and psychic experiences i've ever had have been sexual in nature - and opened up into love and full bodied bliss. In no way has this made meditation or chi kung practice more difficult for me. Please clarify what 'sin' means to you and why it is 'bad.' My only contact with Christianity has been through fliers handed to me or door to door Mormans and Jehovas Witness. It is starting to seem to me that it is so simple to leave out religion in chi kung and meditation.

 

Yes, finally! Someone acknowledges the sexual component of 'spirituality'. In fact, if you lock it (the sexual component) down entirely then IMO/IME it's pretty damn near impossible to achieve many of the 'higher' energetic skills that keep getting talked about on here.

 

My 2 cts.

[Mokona]

Yes, finally! Someone acknowledges the sexual component of 'spirituality'. In fact, if you lock it (the sexual component) down entirely then IMO/IME it's pretty damn near impossible to achieve many of the 'higher' energetic skills that keep getting talked about on here.

 

My 2 cts.

-K-,

 

I will always be in debt to a certain female practicioner for the help given to me and the actual fun we achieved through sexual energy practices. I also learned more about what is 'possible' through direct experience with her. I'm also glad others work this way too.

[Birch]

-K-,

 

I will always be in debt to a certain female practicioner for the help given to me and the actual fun we achieved through sexual energy practices. I also learned more about what is 'possible' through direct experience with her. I'm also glad others work this way too.

 

 

Hmm, I just think it's become obvious. And IME you don't even have to have sex to understand :-)

[Shen Chi Jing]

Perhaps I'll have more time to elaborate on this, or previous posts, later; although for now I'll say that if you've been following my posts, you'll see that the teachings contained therein are actually expressing the Spiritual importance of embracing healthy sexuality, not rejecting it.

 

The Initiatic Schools throughout history and in all parts of the world, have always rejected masturbation because it is actually anti-sexual. Masturbation is a unfruitful and sterile use of the sexual energy. Whereas sex between a woman and a man is healthy because it is fertile both physically and Spiritually. When the man and woman reach orgasm, they produce physical offspring. When the woman and man withdraw from the sexual act before reaching orgasm, they can then begin to further multiply their Spiritual values (this is the Kabbalistic meaning of in the Torah that states: "Be Fruitful and multiply.").

 

In Buddhism, it is said that through the orgasm we waste the Bodhicitta, Thigle, or Jasmine Flower Drops; and it is very important to keep the Bodhicitta in our bodies as to transmute and channel through the Nadis/Channels. It doesn't matter what our moral values are; if we masturbate and/or orgasm then we waste Bindu or Thigle and disrupt the proper flow of Prana, and therefore cannot use the Nadis to their full capacity, and even damage them over time. And in the Higher Tantras in particular, the physical body is very important for realizing full Buddhahood (in Christianity, the physical body is the temple of the Holy Spirit).

 

If we are single, then Pranayama and Meditation are prescribed as the methods for staying in chastity without becoming sexually frustrated:

 

Sacred-Sex: Pranayama

 

(See also Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Awakening the Sacred Body or Healing with Form, Energy, and Light on the Nine Purifications Pranayama)

 

Also, a great excerpt about the unhealthy effects of not embracing our sexual nature:

 

The Spheres of Lilith and Nahemah

 

 

Sarva Mangalam

Edited October 26, 2011 by Shen Chi Jing

[Birch]

Perhaps I'll have more time to elaborate on this, or previous posts, later; although for now I'll say that if you've been following my posts, you'll see that the teachings contained therein are actually expressing the Spiritual importance of embracing healthy sexuality, not rejecting it.

 

The Initiatic Schools throughout history and in all parts of the world, have always rejected masturbation because it is actually anti-sexual. Masturbation is a unfruitful and sterile use of the sexual energy. Whereas sex between a woman and a man is healthy because it is fertile both physically and Spiritually. When the man and woman reach orgasm, they produce physical offspring. When the woman and man withdraw from the sexual act before reaching orgasm, they can then begin to further multiply their Spiritual values (this is the Kabbalistic meaning of in the Torah that states: "Be Fruitful and multiply.").

 

In Buddhism, it is said that through the orgasm we waste the Bodhicitta, Thigle, or Jasmine Flower Drops; and it is very important to keep the Bodhicitta in our bodies as to transmute and channel through the Nadis/Channels. It doesn't matter what our moral values are; if we masturbate and/or orgasm then we waste Bindu or Thigle and disrupt the proper flow of Prana, and therefore cannot use the Nadis to their full capacity, and even damage them over time. And in the Higher Tantras in particular, the physical body is very important for realizing full Buddhahood (in Christianity, the physical body is the temple of the Holy Spirit).

 

If we are single, then Pranayama and Meditation are prescribed as the methods for staying in chastity without becoming sexually frustrated:

 

Sacred-Sex: Pranayama

 

(See also Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Awakening the Sacred Body or Healing with Form, Energy, and Light on the Nine Purifications Pranayama)

 

Also, a great excerpt about the unhealthy effects of not embracing our sexual nature:

 

The Spheres of Lilith and Nahemah

 

 

Sarva Mangalam

 

 

At first glance, sounds pretty much like stuff discussed on here very often, but different jargon :-)

 

If you could manage to distill it into ways that can be understood without attempting to 'prescribe' or 'proscribe' IMO that would be very agreeable.

 

You might find it fun at TTB's after all Mr JCS!

[Shen Chi Jing]

At first glance, sounds pretty much like stuff discussed on here very often, but different jargon :-)

 

Well Gnosis and The Tao share the same roots after all.

 

 

If you could manage to distill it into ways that can be understood without attempting to 'prescribe' or 'proscribe' IMO that would be very agreeable.

 

That's why it was said that Pranayama breathing is prescribed for singles for staying in chastity and not becoming sexually frustrated. So if one who is single doesn't want to become healed, then they should not take the prescription!

 

Seriously though, perhaps it's only the way that I've worded things (rather than their actual content) here, that makes them sound like "proscriptions"?

 

 

You might find it fun at TTB's after all Mr JCS!

 

Thanks.

 

 

The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it diligently.

 

The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.

 

The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.

 

If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is.

 

Edited October 27, 2011 by Shen Chi Jing

[Aaron]

Perhaps I'll have more time to elaborate on this, or previous posts, later; although for now I'll say that if you've been following my posts, you'll see that the teachings contained therein are actually expressing the Spiritual importance of embracing healthy sexuality, not rejecting it.

 

The Initiatic Schools throughout history and in all parts of the world, have always rejected masturbation because it is actually anti-sexual. Masturbation is a unfruitful and sterile use of the sexual energy. Whereas sex between a woman and a man is healthy because it is fertile both physically and Spiritually. When the man and woman reach orgasm, they produce physical offspring. When the woman and man withdraw from the sexual act before reaching orgasm, they can then begin to further multiply their Spiritual values (this is the Kabbalistic meaning of in the Torah that states: "Be Fruitful and multiply.").

 

In Buddhism, it is said that through the orgasm we waste the Bodhicitta, Thigle, or Jasmine Flower Drops; and it is very important to keep the Bodhicitta in our bodies as to transmute and channel through the Nadis/Channels. It doesn't matter what our moral values are; if we masturbate and/or orgasm then we waste Bindu or Thigle and disrupt the proper flow of Prana, and therefore cannot use the Nadis to their full capacity, and even damage them over time. And in the Higher Tantras in particular, the physical body is very important for realizing full Buddhahood (in Christianity, the physical body is the temple of the Holy Spirit).

 

If we are single, then Pranayama and Meditation are prescribed as the methods for staying in chastity without becoming sexually frustrated:

 

Sacred-Sex: Pranayama

 

(See also Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Awakening the Sacred Body or Healing with Form, Energy, and Light on the Nine Purifications Pranayama)

 

Also, a great excerpt about the unhealthy effects of not embracing our sexual nature:

 

The Spheres of Lilith and Nahemah

 

 

Sarva Mangalam

 

 

Actually masturbation is considered immoral by most religions, and it makes sense. Most young men who learn to masturbate will practice masturbation on a daily basis, because it is a very pleasurable thing, so it makes sense if you want to warp their minds and create little ideas of guilt within so you can mold them into the little beings you want them to be, that you would tell them such things as "you are committing a sin" or "you are wasting sacred energy" or "this will prevent you from gaining enlightenment" and when these same young men turn into men who have rampant homosexual encounters and molest the young boys in their care, then we will just say they didn't meditate well enough or weren't practicing the proscribed paths with devotion, it was after all that they were weak, not that the monastic system is bent and defective.

 

Again, show me one religion where they have achieved the ability to tame the sexual nature of man and I will show you a convert, til then I understand these things for what they are. I think most people today do.

 

Control the sexual nature of the young (and old) and you control that man or woman. Tell them that these thoughts are evil, wrong, or wasteful, and you instill guilt in their heart, which we all know is the greatest form of control we can exert.

 

Now if you look at a young man who comes from a non-religious family that learns about masturbation naturally and in a non-judgmental home, what they get from masturbation is a lot of pleasure and a release of stress. They enjoy it, it makes them smile, and puts a spring in their step, that is until some nut job comes along and convinces them that they're harming others by thinking about them in a sexual way or harming themselves because they are "loosing their sacred jing" or worst of all, making angels cry. It's screwed up crap like that makes the pacifist in me boil. If you want to dement yourself, feel free to do so, but for the sake of all that's good, don't do it to others, especially not the young who don't even know what it's all about yet or at least give them time to learn about it on their own and make their own decision. You have every right to screw up your own mind, but don't take something that's innocent and fun and turn it into something dirty and wrong.

 

And don't tell people how harmful all of this is and then direct them to a webpage about embracing their sexual nature... can we say "hypocrite?" Or is that just a bit more backpedaling and justifying. I guess if it helps you to sleep at night knowing you're making someone feel guilty because they have a natural desire to do something that makes them feel good, well then, whatever works for you.

 

Aaron

[Shen Chi Jing]

Twinner

 

Actually, sexual hypocrisy is the very thing addressed in the very link that you claim I'm hypocritical for posting. So unless you've read it, it's rather silly to make accusations of hypocrisy, don't you think? The said link also explains the issue of pent up pseudo-religious people becoming sexual deviants because of their sexual-repression; and, I already addressed that issue posts ago and even pointed it out to you later in this thread, yet you keep repeating yourself as if I'd never addressed the said issue at all.

 

Also, Sexual Transmutation (whether Pranayama or Sexual Magic) is seems very foreign and is shocking to most people because it has been veiled in the world's Spiritual Traditions for thousands of years. It has always been there; yet veiled, due to our karma.

 

Anyway, I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm just sharing information of which you are free to reject, accept, or meditate upon. If you don't agree with me then that's fine. Nonetheless, please stop repeating the same straw-man arguments over and over.

 

 

Best Regards

Edited October 27, 2011 by Shen Chi Jing

[Aaron]

Well Gnosis and The Tao share the same roots after all.

 

 

 

 

That's why it was said that Pranayama breathing is prescribed for singles for staying in chastity and not becoming sexually frustrated. So if one who is single doesn't want to become healed, then they should not take the prescription!

 

Seriously though, perhaps it's only the way that I've worded things (rather than their actual content) here, that makes them sound like "proscriptions"?

 

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

First Shen,

 

I am not attacking you per se, but rather addressing your comments in a manner I think they need to be addressed, because in my mind the thing's you're saying are harmful to others and people need to understand that.

 

Second, I know without a doubt that I have reached an awareness of, not only my true self, but the nature of the universe, and I did this all while I was sexually active (and also I was masturbating). The way you describe it, none of this should've been possible, but it was.

 

I know that one can never understand who they truly are without also understanding the nature of their sexuality. I know that one can never understand the nature of the universe without also understanding the nature of sex. Sex is not just about procreation, it's a blossoming of the spirit that allows us to share a bit of ourselves with others. It is also something meant to be enjoyed and there is no need to restrain ourselves for the sake of God or enlightenment, rather, like all things it should be enjoyed, but never to an excess that causes harm (notice I didn't say moderation, because that's not true either).

 

I would love it if I woke up one day and every religion in the world was suddenly forgotten. Can you imagine how much peace and serenity there would be?

 

Aaron

Edited October 27, 2011 by Twinner

[Shen Chi Jing]

Unless we are literally Omniscient, we should be very careful about assuming Self-Knowledge and Knowledge of the Nature of the Universe. And even if we are Omniscient, we should still be careful about our assumptions (for example, from what I've learned, there are said to be Omniscient Beings who are not able to enter the Absolute, because they are attached to their Omniscience. How about that.).

 

Anyhow, Chaste Sex (without orgasm) between a woman and man who are in love IS the enjoyment of the pleasures of Sex.

 

Orgasm is an extreme, and celibacy is the other extreme.

 

Chaste Sex however, is in alignment with the Middle Way spoken of by the Buddha.

[Aaron]

Twinner

 

Actually, sexual hypocrisy is the very thing addressed in the very link that you claim I'm hypocritical for posting. So unless you've read it, it's rather silly to make accusations of hypocrisy, don't you think? The said link also explains the issue of pent up pseudo-religious people becoming sexual deviants because of their sexual-repression; and, I already addressed that issue posts ago and even pointed it out to you later in this thread, yet you keep repeating yourself as if I'd never addressed the said issue at all.

 

Also, Sexual Transmutation (whether Pranayama or Sexual Magic) is seems very foreign and is shocking to most people because it has been veiled in the world's Spiritual Traditions for thousands of years. It has always been there; yet veiled, due to our karma.

 

Anyway, I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm just sharing information of which you are free to reject, accept, or meditate upon. If you don't agree with me then that's fine. Nonetheless, please stop repeating the same straw-man arguments over and over.

 

 

Best Regards

 

 

My point is that you say all of this and then say that someone who is a "homosexual, masturbator, alcoholic, etc." shouldn't be allowed to practice in a spiritual organization.

 

I'm also saying that pranayama is bullshit, it doesn't work. Ask the boys that are molested every day in monasteries how pranayama is working for them. Ask the monks having sex with other monks, how it's working for them. It's not because they're practicing pranayama wrong, it's that it DOESN'T work, simply because it's trying to remove something that is very much a part of our basic physical nature (the desire for sex.) Also, ask the numerous Lamas, laymen, teachers, masters and gurus how pranayama is working for them. When you find all of these systematic failures that pop up over and over, how can you still say "it's because you westerners don't understand the deep mystic symbolism of it all."

 

It just astounds me that you can't see through all of this. If I could just give you a glimmer of what I know and have experienced, then perhaps that would let you see how absurd the things you say are, but I can't, so the most I can hope for is that you wake up one day with a woody, polish it off and say, "so this is what it's all about, screw pranayama."

 

Aaron

Edited October 27, 2011 by Twinner

[Aaron]

Unless we are literally Omniscient, we should be very careful about assuming Self-Knowledge and Knowledge of the Nature of the Universe. And even if we are Omniscient, we should still be careful about our assumptions (for example, from what I've learned, there are said to be Omniscient Beings who are not able to enter the Absolute, because they are attached to their Omniscience. How about that.).

 

Anyhow, Chaste Sex (without orgasm) between a woman and man who are in love IS the enjoyment of the pleasures of Sex.

 

Orgasm is an extreme, and celibacy is the other extreme.

 

Chaste Sex however, is in alignment with the Middle Way spoken of by the Buddha.

 

What is the point of having sex without an orgasm, unless you're prolonging the orgasm? Chaste sex... I can't even count the ways that's wrong. Orgasm is the natural way, celibacy is the screwed up "lets make sure we can dictate what you do with all your basic desires" way of programming young men into robotic followers of the supreme high order. No one has the right to dictate what someone does with their body, when they do it, or how they do it, plain and simple... I don't care what your defense is.

 

Quit proscribing guilt under the mask of enlightenment.

 

And for clarification, one can understand the nature of the universe without being omniscient, apparently when you were learning pranayama you missed that. Think of it as knowing the nature of sex, but not all the positions and variations.

 

Aaron