Relocating

[fiveelementtao]

You should have heard my former psychotherapist talking. He, too, didn't try to find a path towards a helpful solution (from A to B, so to speak), but seemed to think that if he blames me for being where I am on my path, this would accomplish anything. But in essence what he was saying was: 'In my view you are wrong as you are, and you have to get right.'.

You're right, I would have liked to have heard that exchange between you and your therapist. I bet I would have heard him say something different than you did.

 

It sounds like he was trying to help bring your attention to your participation in your situation. It is unfortunate that you interpreted that to mean he was blaming or judging you. This is a problem for patients in this scenario. Well, now I understand why you want to help Heaven Chi stay victimized. Because he reminds you of yourself, maybe???

 

So, perhaps I am wrong and you both really are victims. Even if that is true than you have nothing to lose by trying to change your viewpoint. In Heaven Chi's case, he is being attacked by black magic. If he chose to try and change his viewpoint from helpless victim to someone who has possibly attracted this to himself, and he was wrong nothing would change. But if I am right, then by attemopting to change his viewpoint, he might get better.

 

The difference between my approach and yours, Hardy, is that I have done what I suggest and my reasons come from my personal experience. Yours comes from hypoer intellectualizing your state in order to justify to yourslef that you are "not to blame." If you can get over that idea and take responsibility without projecting your hyper critical parents that live in your head, you might make some headway into changing your life.

 

In any case my friends, as usual, I have beaten this horse to death so I shall take my leave of this thread...

 

blessings...

[Sahaj Nath]

@Hundun

I set a kind of linguistic trap there. You didn't see what made me think of it. You didn't even deal with that, but you assumed what I wanted to say by thinking of that allegory, equaling it with your mindset.

But in fact, I was thinking about it because of the mindset I describe in the following address to 5et, about fortifying a view by believing in it, although it should be undesired from an altruistic perspective.

 

okay... umm... congrats?

 

 

 

Well, don't things like that work exceptionally well with children's fears?

And didn't you yourself talk about some adults having the comprehension of a child?

So what you do is trying to apply one approach to a problem as universally preferrable, disregarding the actual help efficiency.

 

i think maybe you're leaving out too much of the discussion for this to apply. and most of it was in PM and i will not betray heaven chi's confidence in order to make a point.

 

what i can say is, OF COURSE i understand the efficacy of appreciating the child's paradigm and acting within it! we all do. that's why we look in the closet and work whatever 'magic' we need to so they can sleep. the analogy works for the one point i was making, but not for the whole of this issue.

 

i really can't respond any further without going too far. all i can say is i agree with your point, but there's more to it.

 

we DO admonish children to keep them from harm.

 

 

 

And by the way, giving a child a monster-protection amulet also has the potential of stimulating its power of intent (or power of imagination or sense for phantasy or whatever you want to call it). But what is the more 'mature' answer? To tell the child that there are no monsters? This is simply not true from the child's perspective and thus is, again, only creating opposition.

And also, if the child even asks specifically for an amulet, maybe we should listen to its needs, to the childlike wisdom that is held very high as far as I know. You can still offer an alternative if the child comes back and tells you the amulet doesn't work. But don't give it the amulet and tell it that it won't work anyway and then later say "I told you". Because that's the self-amplifying of personal beliefs I mentioned here in regards to you guys and also my former therapist.

 

i agree. to an extent. but we're talking about an ADULT, not a child. and there are real, tangible consequences for languishing at that stage if that adult continues as he has. either the stage must be challenged, or a course-correction must be made. if neither happens, then there is some REAL trouble ahead.

[Owledge]

You're right, I would have liked to have heard that exchange between you and your therapist. I bet I would have heard him say something different than you did.

 

It sounds like he was trying to help bring your attention to your participation in your situation. It is unfortunate that you interpreted that to mean he was blaming or judging you. This is a problem for patients in this scenario. Well, now I understand why you want to help Heaven Chi stay victimized. Because he reminds you of yourself, maybe???

You would lose the bet. It is also very assumptive for a third person being sure to know better what was said in a dialogue between two people. Especially since I am very intellect-focused and thus pay great attention to the words spoken, even if that might make me overlook emotional messages in them sometimes. I already told you that I said one thing to the therapist and he heard something different, and that I have a lot of experience with that phenomenon, understanding to some extent where it comes from. When you want to oppose someone and don't get the right ammo from him, you have to exchange it with your own.

And due to the nature of the root of that behavior, using a voice recorder and playing back as proof won't help either, because then the person will simply brush it off, try to focus on another point, without acknowledging having warped someone's statements.

That kind of behavior is fueled by emotion, so it tends to clash with intellect-based communication. As I said, I have a lot of experience with that, and one of the most extreme examples was when I talked with someone at a meeting, and someone else who is very emotion-focused told me that he didn't notice anything having being said, just perceived speaking, and was very confused and said he had never experienced that before. Quite alarming, but that observing person put the blame on me, like I forgot to include something in my chat, like I wasn't normal.

I think the chat was either simply too intellectual for him or he didn't pay attention at all and didn't want to admit it.

Even in later talks with him, when I tried to point out possible fears having been involved in a talk between us, he assumed with complete certainty that I was referring to fears of mine, not his, and agreed to himself that of course there were great fears involved in what I said. When I explained that I meant in him, 'NO NO NO OF COURSE NOT. I'm totally serene and at ease.'

 

i think maybe you're leaving out too much of the discussion for this to apply. and most of it was in PM and i will not betray heaven chi's confidence in order to make a point.

I have to compliment you for being more respectful there than 5et is in my case. In my opinion it shows that you have your emotions regarding this discussion more under control.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Hardyg

[fiveelementtao]

Dude, please listen to yourself...

Especially since I am very intellect-focused and thus pay great attention to the words spoken, even if that might make me overlook emotional messages in them sometimes. I already told you that I said one thing to the therapist and he heard something different, and that I have a lot of experience with that phenomenon, understanding to some extent where it comes from. When you want to oppose someone and don't get the right ammo from him, you have to exchange it with your own.

 

so, every verbal communication is a battle? How can you expect to relate to anyone else under those conditions? Everyone has now become your enemy...

And due to the nature of the root of that behavior, using a voice recorder and playing back as proof won't help either, because then the person will simply brush it off, try to focus on another point, without acknowledging having warped someone's statements.

That kind of behavior is fueled by emotion, so it tends to clash with intellect-based communication. As I said, I have a lot of experience with that, and one of the most extreme examples was when I talked with someone at a meeting, and someone else who is very emotion-focused told me that he didn't notice anything having being said, just perceived speaking, and was very confused and said he had never experienced that before. Quite alarming, but that observing person put the blame on me, like I forgot to include something in my chat, like I wasn't normal.

I think the chat was either simply too intellectual for him or he didn't pay attention at all and didn't want to admit it.

Even in later talks with him, when I tried to point out possible fears having been involved in a talk between us, he assumed with complete certainty that I was referring to fears of mine, not his, and agreed to himself that of course there were great fears involved in what I said. When I explained that I meant in him, 'NO NO NO OF COURSE NOT. I'm totally serene and at ease.'

Perhaps if you focused on your feelings rather than your intellect, you would be able to connect with people instead of frightening them away.

 

Hardy, your answers are in your own statements. I will only comment one of your statements

but that observing person put the blame on me,

Based on what I read from you they did not "blame" you. They were sharing their experience of you. Based on what you have written here and this incident it seems that when someone shares their experience of you and you don't like it, you feel blamed.

 

Seriously, dude, if you can open your ears for one second, I highly recommend you investigate this with a therapist and learn how to hear other peoples' experience of you and use it grow. Otherwise, I completely agree with you, if this dynamic doesn't change, you are totally screwed and alone for the rest of your life. Only you can change this, but you will need to find some help, and follow direction. I think that group therapy would also be good for you, because then you can hear other peoples' experience of you. Good luck to you...

One teacher once told me that if two or more people tell you the same thing, it means the Universe is trying to tell you something and you should listen...

OK. I am out of this thread for real this time...

[Owledge]

In any case my friends, as usual, I have beaten this horse to death so I shall take my leave of this thread...

Seems we have a necrophiliac here. That also tells a lot psychologically, when someone says he will leave the thread now and then comes back. Probably means the person is internally torn and/or weak-willed and thus not very stable or in control of himself.

 

so, every verbal communication is a battle? How can you expect to relate to anyone else under those conditions? Everyone has now become your enemy...

Wow, I have no idea where you got the view that I said every verbal communication is a battle. But you seem to like the idea of seeing everybody else as my enemy. (Your deep wishes are calling in imaginative reinforcements.) Unless you can point that out, I have to assume another warped perception on your part.

Also to other readers, maybe you have an idea where he got that from.

 

Perhaps if you focused on your feelings rather than your intellect, you would be able to connect with people instead of frightening them away.

By joining the club of people disregarding what others say, but only regarding one's own feelings during a discussion? How egoistic. That's the root of the whole miscommunication. If people try to convey a message using words, but the words don't match the message, then they seem to have issues, because an untroubled person could just say what they mean, thus avoiding misunderstandings.

 

Based on what I read from you they did not "blame" you. They were sharing their experience of you. Based on what you have written here and this incident it seems that when someone shares their experience of you and you don't like it, you feel blamed.

What I wrote is nowhere near sufficient to judge that, but there will always people who do.

If they merely shared their experience of me, then they would have to acknowledge that as what it is, and not seeing their perception of me as the authority for defining measures to be taken on my part.

Because I can freely choose how I want to perceive you, based on whatever inner troubles I might have. So I could see you as a crazy moron, to use an extreme example, and then expect you to connect with me on that perception, and then I could strongly expect from you to acknowledge that me seeing you as a crazy moron is a problem you have to fix. When in fact, that perception would be highly biased and just my perception, and that's my problem.

Have you never heard the saying?: 'What we do is our responsibility. How other people perceive it is their responsibility.'

Spiritual growth is not a popularity contest. ... Or is it?

 

Otherwise, I completely agree with you, if this dynamic doesn't change, you are totally screwed and alone for the rest of your life.

Wow, now you even have to sync your divisive beliefs about my future with an imagined agreement on my part, so weak is your own confidence on that.

 

One teacher once told me that if two or more people tell you the same thing, it means the Universe is trying to tell you something and you should listen...

That's pretty weak, and also a dogma. If I pay someone for calling you a crazy moron, and then I call you that, too, I can bend your spiritual path into another direction?

Personally, I always listen, even the first time. And I decide on my current understanding and research of occurences when repeating events might create a pattern that hints at a deeper meaning, and when not, and what it might mean is another thing with a multitude of possible alternatives.

Because, for example, when ten people call you a crazy moron in unrelated incidents, you could say you finally listened, the universe was trying to tell you that people are judgmental assholes.

 

OK. I am out of this thread for real this time...

Well, I guess you can always come back, using the philosophical justification of "After all... what is 'real'?".

 

P.S: I hope you don't see my "crazy moron"-examples as me actually thinking you are a crazy moron, because that would really reveal an extreme degree of insecurity on your part. I thought about not commenting about this, but that might have been more ego-driven, and I just wanted to clarify things, since it is so very necessary in discussions between us. (Of course you can always choose to think that you know better than me what I think and that I actually think you are a crazy moron, but as I said, that would be your problem, not mine.)

Edited February 2, 2011 by Hardyg

[heaven chi]

What do you actually mean?

 

If you think that the black magic attack has been made up by my mind I assure you it's not this case.

 

Nonduality is another matter.

 

When you're dealing with a foreign spirit you feel it is different from you, and I'm not talking about merely hearing voices I'm talking about feeling. feeling it go out from your body and scream at an exorcism.

 

So if you tell me this spirit is me I must be crazy to believe it. If you tell me its all my imagination I still must be crazy to believe it.

Non duality is a different matter and how can non duality help in case you're attacked by this spirit?

 

So?

[Owledge]

@heaven chi

I think there are simply several approaches to a problem and some people who try to help only focus on one; their personal favorite so to speak, according to their own beliefs and world view.

 

You can take the karma approach: Your actions cause reactions, so you can either say you are responsible for everything that happens to you, or you can say that it's not that one-sided, because the same would apply to others, too. This is probably more a self-empowerment tactic, using a certain world view as a tool.

Then there's the defensive approach: You can solve every problem by becoming immune to it. But the feasibility of this is of course highly dependant on circumstances - on the power of influences and the level of one's own strength.

And then there's the interesting conflict of being born under certain stars, which kinda clashes with the view that you are responsible for everything that happens in your life. This is highly philosophical, because after all, the whole universe might be a system of mere cause and effect, which is even expressed by karma theory.

 

And all these are in effect just views, strategies. Ways of seeing the world which you choose to use or not, and acting accordingly.

In my personal opinion a problem-solver should consider all the aforementioned factors and always look for even more factors.

 

So if you think you are under black-magic attack, one should consider that it is your imagination and that it is not only that, but more. Probably hard to determine with certainty, so one shouldn't focus too much on only one possibility. Also, it could be a combination of both. I've not read the details about your case, but it could be that there's an attack against you in a kind of generic, shapeless form and that triggers more substantial manifestations in you.

 

Well, I hope my somewhat random musings are of any help to you. I felt like writing something, and now I'm done.

[三江源]

In what sense does it signify to seek to make a distinction "it is self" or "it is other" ?

 

You experience a level of energy and intervention and phenomena which is not voluntarily yours or recognised by your psyche as containing your signature or pertaining to your will or wishes. It creates distress, it is a saboteur.

 

There are methods of shifting this, many methods, stemming from many different cultures and belief systems.

 

All of them work to shift energy.

 

Prayer: contacting soul and spirit combined and beseeching for aid.

Psychotherapy, to heal the mind, ie that which determines in what way we manifest.

Feng Shui to redirect energy in our environment so that we are not moving in muddy soup.

Shamanic practices to collect negative energy and expel it or cleanse it, or restore lost energy.

 

The psychological approach to energy manifestations.... is that your mind is not separate from anything you experience, if you free your mind, your soul and spirit and your energy field in its entirety will shift, this may be what is needed to shake off negative energy, whether it is your own projection, your own karma, or something attached to you from without.

 

Free your mind, free yourself.

 

And you can do this via Ho'oponopono and the other suggestions given to you,which are wholistic suggestions, working on you in your entirety, your karma, your psyche, your environment, your soul, your spirit.

[Owledge]

Cat, I read up on Ho'oponopono and there's the claim that things your perceive in the outside (like the example with mentally ill criminals) can only be changed in yourself (like the healer did in order to cure the mentally ill people), seeing you as the cause. But this has an inherent contradiction, because the criminals didn't heal themselves. They simply were like they were, and someone else healed them. That's why I think that kind of view on the world is too general. The healer definitely has had a past that enabled him to do his healing work very effectively. But there are other distance-healers who use other approaches, like simply wishing it to become true.

The claim connected to Ho'oponopono that you are causing everything that happens in the world and thus it's your responsiblity surely is very attractive to powerful people of all sorts (be it healing power or egoic influence). Let a rich powerbroker believe that the whole world is his responsiblity and he might become megalomaniac, because he has the power to actually influence the whole world. The same goes for a very skilled spiritual healer. But try to apply this to a homeless person or someone who just started dealing with spirituality, then it might become clear that it's actually power that matters, and the power is then wrapped in fancy doctrines and concepts. Just like wannabe world rulers do. They can't simply have that kind of power, they also need a mystical justification for it.

 

This is in some parts rant-quality, so don't take every detail as my conviction.

[三江源]

Cat, I read up on Ho'oponopono and there's the claim that things your perceive in the outside (like the example with mentally ill criminals) can only be changed in yourself (like the healer did in order to cure the mentally ill people), seeing you as the cause. But this has an inherent contradiction, because the criminals didn't heal themselves. They simply were like they were, and someone else healed them. That's why I think that kind of view on the world is too general. The healer definitely has had a past that enabled him to do his healing work very effectively. But there are other distance-healers who use other approaches, like simply wishing it to become true.

The claim connected to that you are causing everything that happens in the world and thus it's your responsiblity surely is very attractive to powerful people of all sorts (be it healing power or egoic influence). Let a rich powerbroker believe that the whole world is his responsiblity and he might become megalomaniac, because he has the power to actually influence the whole world. The same goes for a very skilled spiritual healer. But try to apply this to a homeless person or someone who just started dealing with spirituality, then it might become clear that it's actually power that matters, and the power is then wrapped in fancy doctrines and concepts. Just like wannabe world rulers do. They can't simply have that kind of power, they also need a mystical justification for it.

 

This is in some parts rant-quality, so don't take every detail as my conviction.

 

Hi Hardyg,

I havent read that piece you have mentioned. The idea as you know is that we are all on the same energetic web, that we all contribute to the field, that we can all make a difference.

It wouldnt be possible to practice Ho'oponopono sincerely and also be a megalomaniac.. the will to power would ebb away as the feelings of compassion rise.

You dont sound as though you are on a rant, but that you are thinking about the feelings of powerlessness that we feel and how some claim power in massive amounts and get drunk with it... Wannabe world rulers who need a mystical justification for it..yes.. atrocious sophistry... we cant 'hide' ideas though, in case they be misappropriated, once they are in the public domain.. we simply have to live in the 'reality' we create together, as best we can.

The homeless person would be more likely to be helped by an Ho'oponopono practitioner, who has cultivated loving kindness, than just be told "it's your fault you are homeless'... the latter response is a 'head' one from someone who has swallowed whole a concept of 'self - responsibility' and not digested it. The practitioner would have a more evolved heart which would prompt her/him to hold out a hand to a fellow human on the web, on their way.

 

It is interesting about someone else doing the healing.. so many healers say they cannot heal, they can only facilitate a situation in which someone can choose to heal.. ime this is true. Those determined to stay sick, will hold on tight to their patterning. But this isnt a rant either.. I'd love to believe in long term healing being done which overcomes resistances.

[heaven chi]

Thank you for your input. I will talk things with one of my teachers who is also member of this forum. After all he has actually helped me in one occasion.

 

The reason I continued this conversation was because I didn't understand Hundun's viewpoint.

 

Anyway I'm going to ask one of my teachers. Should ask a Rinpoche too. Will see.

[Sahaj Nath]

@heaven chi

I think there are simply several approaches to a problem and some people who try to help only focus on one; their personal favorite so to speak, according to their own beliefs and world view.

 

You can take the karma approach: Your actions cause reactions, so you can either say you are responsible for everything that happens to you, or you can say that it's not that one-sided, because the same would apply to others, too. This is probably more a self-empowerment tactic, using a certain world view as a tool.

Then there's the defensive approach: You can solve every problem by becoming immune to it. But the feasibility of this is of course highly dependant on circumstances - on the power of influences and the level of one's own strength.

And then there's the interesting conflict of being born under certain stars, which kinda clashes with the view that you are responsible for everything that happens in your life. This is highly philosophical, because after all, the whole universe might be a system of mere cause and effect, which is even expressed by karma theory.

 

And all these are in effect just views, strategies. Ways of seeing the world which you choose to use or not, and acting accordingly.

In my personal opinion a problem-solver should consider all the aforementioned factors and always look for even more factors.

 

So if you think you are under black-magic attack, one should consider that it is your imagination and that it is not only that, but more. Probably hard to determine with certainty, so one shouldn't focus too much on only one possibility. Also, it could be a combination of both. I've not read the details about your case, but it could be that there's an attack against you in a kind of generic, shapeless form and that triggers more substantial manifestations in you.

 

Well, I hope my somewhat random musings are of any help to you. I felt like writing something, and now I'm done.

 

yeah, this will be my last post in this thread. heaven chi and i still keep going back and forth on things, but i DO sincerely believe that he is plagued with an affliction, or sorts. i just don't think it's quite as... relevant... as other matters i've addressed with him.

 

i kind of like how you laid out a few different approaches as an example, and i think you're right that this type of thing happens where all contrary views are dismissed.

 

what i think i've been trying to say is, up until last night, your criticism above is exactly how heaven chi has been approaching his own condition, as if only his viewpoint and beliefs about it is legitimate. i can go there and stay within that paradigm when it proves to be more skillful, but in this case it is failing him over, and over and over again, giving him temporary relief, and each time reinforcing and crystallizing the "reality" of his affliction.

 

as some point you've gotta stop searching for the right amulet or mantra when they keep failing, and you've gotta re-examine your assumptions & beliefs. i think we're there.

 

but at this point, i just don't know if he can make such a tremendous shift. but i'll continue the dialog at least a little while longer, because now, at least, i believe that he wants to understand. so that's something.