competition, dominanance and violence

[gendao]

One's metaphysical understanding will certainly color their interpretation of this subject.

 

Non invokes science and evolutionary theory to support his views. So do members of the seduction community, except they embrace these concepts and use them for their advantage. It sounds like Non isn't comfortable enough with this viewpoint to do this.

 

Which is arguably a good thing. It is certainly true that people are very different, and while statistically speaking generalizations might be true, different people are attracted to different things. So there is hope for, say, a submissive man and a dominant woman to get together.

 

But to me, Non's points are less about the specifics of attraction, and more about the nihilism of materialism, which is a grander and more cosmic problem. For instance, the idea that love is just an evolutionary mechanism and nothing more.

 

So Non, you might already be aware of this, it sounds like this issue is bringing up more existential problems than just the specifics of sexual attraction. The fact that you're complaining about it (ie materialism) means that either a) you think there is a chance that it's not true or you are fighting against reality.

Excellent philosophical analysis, my friend! The very fact that Non's posts strike such a deep chord of fundamental unease within so many people here indicates that some far deeper issues are at play rather than merely female biological sexual attraction.

 

So, while most would here would like to simply sweep all this under the rug...to a philosopher or psychoanalyst - this is the equvialent to getting a BIG, tugging bite on your fishing line! Far from letting this go...this may be a huge trophy catch that they really want to reel in and land!

 

 

What it comes down to then is the possibility that our human bodies are all merely robots preprogrammed for survival in this 3D realm. Attraction, sex & "love" are merely evo psych & game theory means to this end and ultimately nothing more than that. PUA and ongoing scientific studies have both proven the general validity of this. So, our whole existence here is equivalent to an elaborate VR video game.

 

Ultimately, this possibility is what deeply disturbs both Non and all his fervent detractors. Everyone here wants to believe that our lives on Earth are so noble, meaningful and more than just a global game of Survivor. That it's all so REAL...(and not scripted).

 

However, contemporary enlightened people (Jed McKenna's, Steven Norquist's, Tony Parsons's, etc) actually essentially argue otherwise...that our very "selves" and "free will" are all illusive and that "love" (parental pair-bonding) is merely a clinging based upon all these "illusions." That life on Earth is the ultimate Game (which is also the title of the PUA "Bible," btw). And anything you experience in the flesh here is ultimately about as real as a dream...

Edited February 2, 2011 by vortex

[Sloppy Zhang]

One's metaphysical understanding will certainly color their interpretation of this subject.

 

Non invokes science and evolutionary theory to support his views. So do members of the seduction community, except they embrace these concepts and use them for their advantage. It sounds like Non isn't comfortable enough with this viewpoint to do this.

 

Which is arguably a good thing. It is certainly true that people are very different, and while statistically speaking generalizations might be true, different people are attracted to different things. So there is hope for, say, a submissive man and a dominant woman to get together.

 

But to me, Non's points are less about the specifics of attraction, and more about the nihilism of materialism, which is a grander and more cosmic problem. For instance, the idea that love is just an evolutionary mechanism and nothing more.

 

So Non, and you might already be aware of this, it sounds like this issue is bringing up more existential problems than just the specifics of sexual attraction. The fact that you're complaining about it (ie materialism) means that either a) you think there is a chance that it's not true or b ) you are fighting against reality.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

 

Excellent philosophical analysis, my friend! The very fact that Non's posts strike such a deep chord of fundamental unease within so many people here indicates that some far deeper issues are at play rather than merely female biological sexual attraction.

 

So, while most would here would like to simply sweep all this under the rug...to a philosopher or psychoanalyst - this is the equvialent to getting a BIG, tugging bite on your fishing line! Far from letting this go...this may be a huge trophy catch that they really want to reel in and land!

 

 

What it comes down to then is the possibility that our human bodies are all merely robots preprogrammed for survival in this 3D realm. Attraction, sex & "love" are merely evo psych & game theory means to this end and ultimately nothing more than that. PUA and ongoing scientific studies have both proven the general validity of this. So, our whole existence here is equivalent to an elaborate VR video game.

 

Ultimately, this possibility is what deeply disturbs both Non and all his fervent detractors. Everyone here wants to believe that our lives on Earth are so noble, meaningful and more than just a global game of Survivor. That it's all so REAL...(and not scripted).

 

However, contemporary enlightened people (Jed McKenna's, Steven Norquist's, Tony Parsons's, etc) actually essentially argue otherwise...that our very "selves" and "free will" are all illusive and that "love" (parental pair-bonding) is merely a clinging based upon all these "illusions." That life on Earth is the ultimate Game (which is also the title of the PUA "Bible," btw). And anything you experience in the flesh here is ultimately about as real as a dream...

 

I, for one, don't mind tackling larger issues, or finding a larger issue lurking behind a smaller issue....

 

But from what I've seen, Non is not handling this realization in a positive way.

 

Rather than saying, "wow, this is nothing but the workings of an evolutionary mechanism, how does this impact my life" or "I understand why other people are acting this way", and then doing something POSITIVE with life, it's turned into "wow, life is pointless and stupid, there's no hope for anybody, I realize what's really going on, but because of that people hate me for it, I'm borderline suicidal over this realization".

 

There are certainly positive ways that you can use these revelations of the illusive, nihilistic nature of things. Like, say, to have compassion for people, to stop judging them (because you realize the source of their behavior and thought process), to find ways to relate to them so that you can help them get out of the pit they've stuck themselves in. To bring OTHERS to the same realization, and even if they don't get to the same place, to at least help them be at peace with where they are at.

 

But I just don't see that happening, sorry if I've missed it, Non.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Otis]

The women I know despise violence in men. They love bravery, but hate violence, even traces of it.

[NeiChuan]

actually yea it does. the man has evolved such that even if he does many great things as long as it doesn't get him more vagina it doesn't mean jack and he's worthless.

 

I am already there.

 

Oh that perspective.. Yeah I've seen it. Only really when I talk to albanian people from my parents country though. All about the superficial, what other people "know" has some value. Gotta exploit it man.. Only way you'll get any credit, and show you're awesome.

 

Too bad it's bullshit.

 

Don't tell me you believe that, please.

[Jetsun]

I think the media can give you a screwed view of what people are really like, most of the papers and news are full of pure violence, while films and computer games are full of brutality and throw in the regular viewing of hardcore pornography and so much of your input is overly focused on just one dark part of life, whereas in reality (where I live anyway) most people I meet are very friendly peaceful people. After many years of indulging in all this im trying to cut as much of it out of my life as possible as I believe it will help to see things more clearly to get rid of such negative brainwashing.

[RyanO]

Vortex: Thanks, interesting stuff, I'll have to check out those names you mentioned.

 

Sloppy: Haha yes, my style tends to take things to existential levels.

 

I intentionally left out my personal views on the topic, I didn't want to get overly tangential, but from my chair Non does seem to be having a kind of existential despair. I know he has been on this board a while and brought up similar topics many times, and heard great advice many more times, seemingly not willing to take it for whatever reason. I'm sure he has different motivations for doing this.

 

I agree with you that whatever realizations about reality Non has come to don't seem to have been positively interpreted by him, and that perhaps more beneficial takes on it are possible. However, keep in mind how difficult that might be, considering the circumstances.

 

Sexual dissatisfaction is hard enough, but especially when combined with a nihilistic materialistic metaphysical view, which could be the case and the reason I brought it up.

 

(Sorry to talk about you in third person, Non, if you're reading this, I know it can be aggravating)

[Non]

Oh that perspective.. Yeah I've seen it. Only really when I talk to albanian people from my parents country though. All about the superficial, what other people "know" has some value. Gotta exploit it man.. Only way you'll get any credit, and show you're awesome.

 

Too bad it's bullshit.

 

Don't tell me you believe that, please.

 

well, anthropologically speaking it's true. an act is not considered evolved, or evolutionary if it does not get him more mates.

 

the suicidal feelings I get are strong urges coming from the organismal, or cellular even level. its not mere mental. it's not fun being a near 25 yr old virgin in this world, or at least in a society or environment which does not support it's existence. my body doesn't seem to get anywhere past this. no, getting western conventional medicines won't do anything to treat this. maybe if I lived in a buddhist temple.

 

it's not only virginity, but the terrible loneliness of it which comes i this society.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Non

[zerostao]

i agree that western medicine is probably not desirable. non, what would make life more fun? what in life do you enjoy?

[NeiChuan]

well, anthropologically speaking it's true. an act is not considered evolved, or evolutionary if it does not get him more mates.

 

the suicidal feelings I get are strong urges coming from the organismal, or cellular even level. its not mere mental. it's not fun being a near 25 yr old virgin in this world, or at least in a society or environment which does not support it's existence. my body doesn't seem to get anywhere past this. no, getting western conventional medicines won't do anything to treat this. maybe if I lived in a buddhist temple.

 

it's not only virginity, but the terrible loneliness of it which comes i this society.

 

Going to put your perspective of evolution aside.

 

One of my friends lost his virginity at 30. That's when he left his monastery. He also went to school around the time though. He's about the happiest guy I know, aswell as successful. He's often on the move and has no problem getting women, I think it's because of how comfortable he is with himself, and how much he knows himself.

 

So even without female interaction like that till 30 he turned out great. If you believe all these ideas and they make you feel better, fine. But it's nothing to feel bad about in the first place.

 

In alot of countries being in their 20's and still being a virgin isn't weird at all.

 

You're not alone man. The only thing that brings you farther is your mindset. Say you're plagued at a cellular level and you are. I'd say fat chance though.

 

It's up to you. Stop blaming everything else and get to know yourself. Sit alone with your own thoughts for 5 minutes. Alot of people run from their thoughts and drop into vicious cycles like this.

Edited February 3, 2011 by NeiChuan

[RiverSnake]

actually yea it does. the man has evolved such that even if he does many great things as long as it doesn't get him more vagina it doesn't mean jack and he's worthless.

 

I am already there.

 

[NeiChuan]

 

I lol'd

[torus693]

the sex center works with a very fine energy, which is all to often stolen and used wrongly by the other centers. Various mechanical, useless behaviors are associated with the theft of sex energy by the emotional and moving and intelectual centers: political persecution, religeuos fanatism, obsessions with sporrt, and so forth. The sex center is more than just an organic sexual function. Fine sexual energy can used for spiritual transmutation.

 

-Gurdjeif.

 

Non is right. There are billions of sleeping and very misbehaving people out there.

[JohnC]

This explains why Eddie Izzard is so loved by women. It's his violent coloured lipstick.

 

/thread.

[Sloppy Zhang]

well, anthropologically speaking it's true. an act is not considered evolved, or evolutionary if it does not get him more mates.

 

That's assuming you subscribe to the theory that the only measure of "success" is how many mates you get. Which means that if you're a guy able to impregnate a gal, and you're a gal who's able to bear children, and you aren't already making babies, then you're behind the curve.

 

That's not the only measure of success. It's not the only system of belief out there. You don't have to subscribe to it.

 

It's one belief put forward out of MANY. It seems like you keep focusing on it because it supports your own conclusions. Cognitive bias.

 

it's not fun being a near 25 yr old virgin in this world, or at least in a society or environment which does not support it's existence.

 

You need to figure out what you want.

 

Do you want to be spiritual? Do you want to cultivate? Because it sounds to me like you just want people to approve of your actions. And it almost seems like you are using being spiritual as an excuse for why you don't have sex, because you know, you just don't fit into what's going on in the world, because you're just so spiritual, you just don't have sex willy nilly, but oh noes, people are judging you because you don't have sex.

 

Right, well, if you feel like people are judging you for not having sex at 25, go have sex. Right now. Just hook up casually with someone. Use protection and everything, and just get it out of the way. Then you won't be a virgin anymore.

 

But wait. That's not a guarantee that it'll fix anything! You hook up with someone once, twice, a couple of people, a couple of times. So you're a fairly experienced stud. Okay. What are your hobbies? Cultivation? Okay, plenty of people who will judge you for that (it's boring, it's lame, it doesn't get you any money), then you'll be alienated and shunned by people, and you'll get back to square one.

 

What's the problem? You keep seeking external validation! And when you do that, you will NEVER win. Because there are ALWAYS going to be people who will judge you.

 

You might live in a place where not having sex by 25 is lame. So you go and have sex. And then you're normal. Then you move to a place where most of the people you know didn't have sex until they were married, they find out you did it beforehand, and you're not married, and oh noes! You're back to being an outcast. Except you can't go out and then "not have sex" and then fix it, so this time you're REALLY up the creek without a paddle.

 

So what do you do?

 

STOP SEEKING EXTERNAL VALIDATION!

 

Happy, successful people have self confidence in who they are and what they do. Ever hear the phrase "own it"? It means owning who you are, what you do, how you do it, and not giving a crap about what other people think. 25 year old virgin? OWN IT! Cultivator? OWN IT!

 

Be who you are, be comfortable with who you are, and show people that it doesn't slow you down, and their judgments about you don't slow you down. It doesn't bother you, why should it bother them? If you seem bothered, if you seem like their judgments are somehow hurting you, then that bothers people and makes them less likely to rely on you. If you can't even support yourself, how can you support others? Show confidence, and people will open up to you. And hey, if they don't? WHO CARES!

 

maybe if I lived in a buddhist temple.

 

Well aside from the fact that that wouldn't treat the symptoms, and it'd be more like escapism, maybe that would be good for you, maybe you should go do that.

 

it's not only virginity, but the terrible loneliness of it which comes i this society.

 

How about you just learn to relate to people? Make friendships that aren't built on "have you had sex?"

 

"Hi, how's it going?"

"Hey, good, I'm non. By the way, before we become friends, I just want you to know I'm a 25 year old virgin."

"....."

 

Yeah, maybe try to hit up some other topics of conversation.

 

And look, if you can't, well, go where you can. Change your life to suit who you are, and that includes changing your friends. If you can't do that, maybe you should work on it. Or maybe you should just devote yourself somewhere else- a job, skill, cultivation, that will allow you to go to a place where you CAN be in an environment that meshes better with your goals.

 

And maybe that is a buddhist temple.

 

One thing is for sure though: SUICIDE ISN'T GOING TO FIX THIS!

 

It is going to be hard. It is going to be uncomfortable. But only you can fix this. But that's part of the cultivation process. So if you aim to be a serious cultivator, you're on the right track.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Non]

Going to put your perspective of evolution aside.

 

One of my friends lost his virginity at 30. That's when he left his monastery. He also went to school around the time though. He's about the happiest guy I know, aswell as successful. He's often on the move and has no problem getting women, I think it's because of how comfortable he is with himself, and how much he knows himself.

 

So even without female interaction like that till 30 he turned out great. If you believe all these ideas and they make you feel better, fine. But it's nothing to feel bad about in the first place.

 

In alot of countries being in their 20's and still being a virgin isn't weird at all.

 

You're not alone man. The only thing that brings you farther is your mindset. Say you're plagued at a cellular level and you are. I'd say fat chance though.

 

It's up to you. Stop blaming everything else and get to know yourself. Sit alone with your own thoughts for 5 minutes. Alot of people run from their thoughts and drop into vicious cycles like this.

 

Thats because he was in a Monastary where the environment was supportive.probably had the right tools and knowledge to trannsmute the energy. in the west everything is mystified...

Edited February 3, 2011 by Non

[三江源]

the sex center works with a very fine energy, which is all to often stolen and used wrongly by the other centers. Various mechanical, useless behaviors are associated with the theft of sex energy by the emotional and moving and intellectual centers: political persecution, religious fanaticism, obsessions with sport, and so forth. The sex center is more than just an organic sexual function. Fine sexual energy can used for spiritual transmutation.

 

-Gurdjeif.

 

Non is right. There are billions of sleeping and very misbehaving people out there.

 

This is the important point.

 

I think this is why we get so many males turning up at tb and posting about how to change their sexual energy, and so many more than ever post, just browsing here, working on how to change their sexual energy. And this is what the Karezza site is about too. People know their sexuality needs something refreshing and clearing, but they arent sure what..

 

If tb can help articulate this, to voice it, then this is for the good of all.

 

One of the best psychotherapeutic retorts to a sexually dysfunctional client that I ever came across was "Your sexuality is not soup".. the point being that everything gets chucked into 'sexuality' ie anger, frustration, thwarted needs, psychological complexes, need for regression.... sexuality is heedlessly given all of these feelings to carry, and it buckles under the strain and loses its purity and revivifying nature, and becomes tainted to the extreme levels that we know about today with porn addiction being so much the norm.

When 'sex' becomes nothing more than a vehicle for relieving circular neuroses the real life force is left languishing, the whole being is out of harmony and deeply unhappy. Hence the compensatory obsessions.

[NeiChuan]

Thats because he was in a Monastary where the environment was supportive.probably had the right tools and knowledge to trannsmute the energy. in the west everything is mystified...

 

They don't start chi kung/meditation till 18.

 

Shaolin doesn't either.

 

if this is about transmuting energy it's not just the act that's important, it's your shen, how you're thinking when you're doing it.

[torus693]

what do you practice non?

[Sloppy Zhang]

I think this is why we get so many males turning up at tb and posting about how to change their sexual energy, and so many more than ever post, just browsing here, working on how to change their sexual energy.

 

I thought it was just so people could masturbate/have sex all the want, but still be able to claim to be following a legitimate spiritual practice...

 

Edited February 4, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[zerostao]

what do you practice non?

 

i think this is a relevant question, i tried asking it earlier along with what his interests are . becoz i think if he follows his own path and stays true to himself finding himself first, then later on the path who knows what or who he may meet.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

You want to start a peace awareness campaign for womens sexuality, so that women can get hot for men who are sitting quietly reading or lying on the floor playing with the cat?

 

 

:lol:

 

It would be nice! If it ever happens I'm buying a cat tomorrow.

 

Actually it did make me think of something though...

 

Picture this (if you're female, if you're male I wouldn't bother): A burning house, outside a mother crying unable to get her baby still trapped inside. Enter the strapping uniformed fireman who says "don't worry, it'll be ok, I'll go get your baby". Risking life and limb(for no extra pay)he goes inside.... after some time he exits, baby in arms running out of the house, flames burning behind him(in slow motion).

 

Now tell me you didn't just go weak at the knees.

 

I guess my point to Non is this: Policeman(brutality/dominance)are generally hated in society. Soldiers(dominant, potential or actual killers)are looked down upon(rightly or wrongly I don't know)..... but fireman! Those lucky bastards can just say to a female "I'm a fireman", and the deal will be essentially done!

 

They may not marry them, but still, those guys aren't short of female attention. I remember an office I used to work in that had frequent false fire alarms. Everytime the fireman came the whole office of about twenty female staff would go nuts and just spend the next ten minutes looking out the window. My God I wish I was a fireman.

 

I think I should invest in a uniform. So Non, it kind of throws your theory out of kilter. Whereas it's true there are some women who like the brutal man it's not totally representative of all females. If you tell me that females don't like fireman then you need to get out more.

 

I suggest you become a fireman.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[Birch]

Firemen are hot!

 

Oh-ok, the only fireman I ever dated, I found hot. And he never saved me, and he explained he was sort of pyrofile ("fire-lover" - like a geek about fire) and um, yeah. No generalisations are possible from there...

 

Not sure this helps tho'

[NeiChuan]

:lol:

 

 

I guess my point to Non is this: Policeman(brutality/dominance)are generally hated in society. Soldiers(dominant, potential or actual killers)are looked down upon(rightly or wrongly I don't know)..... but fireman! Those lucky bastards can just say to a female "I'm a fireman", and the deal will be essentially done!

 

They may not marry them, but still, those guys aren't short of female attention. I remember an office I used to work in that had frequent false fire alarms. Everytime the fireman came the whole office of about twenty female staff would go nuts and just spend the next ten minutes looking out the window. My God I wish I was a fireman.

 

I think I should invest in a uniform. So Non, it kind of throws your theory out of kilter. Whereas it's true there are some women who like the brutal man it's not totally representative of all females. If you tell me that females don't like fireman then you need to get out more.

 

I suggest you become a fireman.

 

I think I've found my calling.

 

[Nanashi]

Non, I can empathize with your points and plights, but you have to keep a cool head, lest you go insane.

 

I suggest to stop drinking tap water (most already do not), it can mess with your hormones and cause other chemical imbalances. Also, stop eating most snack foods-- here's a small chart of unacceptable amounts of mercury that is somehow commercial allowed to be contained in food stuffs, outlined by the IATP:

 

Edited February 4, 2011 by Nanashi

[gendao]

Firemen are hot!

 

Oh-ok, the only fireman I ever dated, I found hot. And he never saved me, and he explained he was sort of pyrofile ("fire-lover" - like a geek about fire) and um, yeah. No generalisations are possible from there...

Firemen are usually non-intellectual, blue-collar, well-built guys. Many of them are amateur bodybuilders. Firefighting sounds like a very exciting, high-risk profession (although the vast majority of their time is just spent diddling around the firehouse).

 

So, we can see that the key factors to sexual attractiveness here to women are simply physical appeal and danger. Brawn >>>> brains.. Very biological and nothing mystical..

 

 

Notice, by contrast, that no female here excitedly piped up before that "spiritual guys are hot!" or "vegetarian yogis are hot!" Why? Because they're NOT considered hot - even to the small minority of spiritual women here...

 

Whereas, the only posters here who argue that spiritual guys ARE considered "hot" by women...are spiritual guys, lmao! But if so, then where's all the hot young groupies trolling these boards for such so-called "hot" spiritual guys? Oh yea, they don't exist! The active m/f ratio here is roughly 30/1 (very far from the 1/4 claimed earlier)!

Edited February 4, 2011 by vortex