Unhelpful judgment, or a taste of the truth?

[Cat Pillar]

Marblehead,

 

Hi Cat Pillar,

 

I think that what you spoke to effects all of us in one way or another.

 

First, I must say that yes, you are 100% responsible for any suffering you have to endure. This is because I believe that suffering is a psychological process that is basically saying. "Oh, poor me."

 

Secondly, the pains of life we must endure are different from suffering. We will have pains now and then during our lifetime whether it be physical or psychological. We must learn how to reduce, eliminate, or endure these pains. (If the pains are being caused by someone else then distance from the cause is one solution.)

 

Thirdly, we each are 100% responsible for anything in our life that we have 100% control of. We should not try to take responsibility for anything that is beyond our control.

 

And lastly, as others have already said, if the weight is overwhelming seek out someone who is willing to carry some of the weight for you. There is nothing wrong with asking for help.

 

I agree we can't take responsibility for things we can't control...but we are still 100% responsible for how we to react to those things.

 

I couldn't ask anyone else to carry my baggage, I just don't feel right about that. I'd be willing to ask for advice on how to better carry it so it's not so hard...but I would feel guilty asking someone else to share the load. I tend to keep my issues close unless it's an anonymous setting like this.

 

-------------------------------

 

Jetsun,

 

I relate a lot to what you are saying, this is something I struggle with a great deal too

 

I'd say that one of the best ways of taking responsibility for your suffering is to reach out, easier said than done though

 

Yes, much easier said than done.

 

-------------------------------

 

joeblast,

 

I see a bunny with a burning eye in your avatar. That's pretty frickin' cool. _/\_

 

-------------------------------

 

Kate,

 

"You're being a whiny little bitch. Stop it. Put up or shut up, your complaining won't do shit. No one else can fix you, it's all on your shoulders."

 

I wonder where I've heard this before. Oh ya, mom. Thanks mom!

 

I think assigning responsibility is the hardest thing to do and so lots of people just decide to take it all upon themselves because they figure they can better deal with it that way.

 

I don't believe, and in practice have found, this is not necessarily the case. In fact, a child will all too often do this very thing in order to avoid having to see the truth, thus traumatizing themselves further (beyond the actual pain).

 

The truth is that mom is a nutcase with little soul and the cognitive capacity of a 12 year old who really shouldn't be having kids. Whether she's that way because of her parents, the weather, diet or government, it makes little difference to me.

 

However, I do believe, and in practice have found, that taking personal responsibility to heal oneself is a very helpful one to take. So congrats for doing that Catpillar. There are some very helpful people (and practices) on the TTB's.

 

I can't find it in me to blame anyone else for my situation. I understand what you're saying, and I think we can agree to the point where adding judgments about yourself as a result of the situations is what seals in and intensifies, propagates the trauma.

 

Thanks for the grats, and I have definitely found the people here to be very helpful. Haven't tried many of the practices yet, since I'm still testing out the ones I've got.

 

--------------------------------

 

thelerner (or Michael, if you prefer),

 

In some ways that attitude is good because if you want to see change, you have to create it yourself.

 

Its can be bad because..sometimes it is the worlds fault .

 

Life is like a poker game, you have to play the cards your dealt. Sometimes you simply get crappy hands. The thing about poker is there are a lot of hands dealt and in the long run its skill not luck that determines the winner.

 

When times are tough, cut your losses, hunker down, keep hope alive and your eyes open for opportunity. More cards are coming.

 

Michael

 

I think playing the cards you're dealt regardless of the hand is the same as taking full responsibility. I cannot control the world, but I CAN control how I react to it. Not to say that's an easy job, of course.

 

----------------------------

 

Once again, I'm out of time, but I'll finish up my replies tomorrow. Be well, wherever you are!

[C T]

Cat Pillar,

 

May i recommend a book that i found to be quite related to some of the issues that are being discussed here? I have worked with it many years ago... gladly, it had worked with me as well:

 

"Love is Letting Go of Fear" (G. Jambolsky) - http://www.amazon.com/Love-Letting-Fear-Gerald-Jampolsky/dp/0890872465

 

Somewhere in the book, it says, "Teach only love, for that is what you are."

 

 

 

Wishing you liberation!

[Cat Pillar]

wtm,

 

I suggest you look into subpersonalities.

 

It has already helped me to tone down inner conflicts in just a few days of work.

 

I think your problem is not so much spiritual as suffering in the Buddhist sense, but more from a psychological issue.

 

A short list of common subpersonalities:

 

The protector/controller:

 

Consists of that part of us which tries to fit into the parents and what they want. It notices what works and what does not work, what pleases and what does not please. It learns how to protect our vulnerability.

 

The critic:

 

This is one which tells us we have got it wrong. It is extremely acute, and notices everything which could make us feel rotten about ourselves.

 

The pusher:

 

This is the one which tells us what we have not done the chores, written the letter, done the exercises. [...] As soon as we cross an item off the top of the list, the Pusher will add one to the bottom.

 

There are many more subpersonalities than listed above.

 

If you have any inner conflict, it is probably because of two subpersonalities fighting. Ask all your subpersonalities these questions:

 

* what do you look like?

* how old are you?

* what kind of situations bring you out?

* what is your general approach to the world?

* what is your basic motive for being there?

* what have you got to offer?

* what are your blocks to full functioning?

* what would happen if you took over completely?

* what helps you grow?

* how do you relate to women/children/men?

 

I hope you find it helpful.

 

I've known another person who took this kind of approach to self-inquiry and it worked very well for them as well. I can definitely see some of these subpersonalities in myself, but I'm not sure if I'd be able to dialogue very well with them. I have trouble with perceiving them as discrete identities I could objectively find answers from...unless the whole idea IS simply to assign answers to the questions that I feel best fit the subpersonality in question. In any case, I think this probably WOULD be a helpful avenue of inquiry for me, and I'll look more into it.

 

I think you're right in that my problem is probably more psychological than anything else.

 

----------------------------

 

5ET (...you're an alien!!!),

 

A shamanic perspective is very helpful for me when dealing with critical inner voices. One technique I use is to enter a meditative state and then imagine myself in a very healing place. For me, it is in the mountains near a stream. Then I call my guides for protection. Then I set up a chair in the middle of a circle surrounded by my guides and helpers and then I invite my critical voice or problem or resistance or whatever I am trying to work through and then I put my critical voice on the hot seat and ask it. "What do you want to tell me?" "Why are you really here?" etc... Usually I find that the voice or the resistance is actually trying to protect me. Then I will ask what it is trying to protect me from and then I can get a good idea of what scenario initially started the dynamic. Then I find out that the thing that is working so hard to keep me blocked can be convinced to work in a different way to help change things. So, this is a way that I use to be pro-acctive in changing my internal subconscious beliefs. My experience is that these internal voices cannot be shut up. If I resist them, they will defeat me every time. But if I address them and seek to help them understand that whatever old instructions I have given them in the past is no longer working and I give them a better alternative, then they usually come around and then work to help change things for the better. But, just like people, they need to be talked to appreciated and included in the process...

hope that helps...

 

I like the sound of that shamanic approach. Unfortunately, meditations of that type are a problem for me. I'm realizing that I still have very strong belief barriers to effectively pursuing that methodology. There's still a strong part of me that doesn't really believe in guides or things like that. Or rather, the skeptic inside whispers that such experiences would likely consist of me "making shit up" as I go, and thus would not have any kind of reliable basis for acceptance. Hmm...how interesting. A unique puzzle...and the primary reason why for so long I pursued mystical experience, something to confirm the validity of things like guides.

 

I think it's a trust issue mostly...again, something that will probably be tremendously helped by cultivating love and compassion for myself.

 

--------------------------------

 

devoid,

 

Hi Cat Pillar,

 

You're onto something very important here. Loving and respecting oneself is a very important tool in facing ones challenges. Affirmations can also be helpful in addition to the inner smile and similar practices - both from within and from the outside; i.e. "I love and respect myself as well as My surroundings / The Universe loves and respects me." - sorry if it sounds a bit cheesy, but it can be a lot of help when feeling unsure or hurt. This way you can close your eyes, take a deep breath and connect your mind and body: That's soul food for the spirit

 

Affirmations almost always sound cheesy, but I know lots of people who swear by them. I can see how especially in cultivating self love and respect they can be very powerful, because you have to actually say the words to yourself. If nothing else, it can help bring the fore exactly why you don't believe the words coming out of your mouth, and thus offer you a new insight into the source of the negative self image.

 

I need me a soul food buffet. The spirit be hungry!

 

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Shaktimama,

 

First I would like to say this thread is an example of TTBs at their finest. What thoughtful, kind responses.

 

Secondly, I do the same thing. What you can do is just put it out there and see what kind of response you get. I have done that and sometimes get an ass whupping because of it. Lessons learned. A lot of times I don't get beat on.

 

Thirdly, you can save a draft and come back to it in a couple of days. Sometimes the issue resolves its self I have found.

 

Fourth, sometimes you just got to let it fly. We all have our bad hair days. Those of us who are thoughtful will see that. The rest of the commenters just ignore. (hard to do,I know).

 

Fifth: (!) some of those alter subcharacters (archetypes) in our life do have our best interests at heart (usually survival) but are unrefined in approach. It takes a while to develop the healthy inner adult to modulate those other voices. I find I just say to those "voices": thanks for your concern but please sit in the corner while I take care of this. Sounds like you are taking the right steps to develop your Inner Adult.

 

Susan

 

I have been consistently impressed with the quality and character of responses I have gotten in my threads.

 

The idea of saving a draft is a good one, I'll have to remember that for future "outbursts," hehe. I do tend to feel better after I vent, most of the time. Except when that little voice gets loud enough and I drop my guard enough to start feeling bad/beating myself up. Most of the time I don't need anyone else to whup my ass, I'm pretty good at doing that kind of thing myself.

 

I'm very serious about cultivation, refining my character, and as you put it developing my Inner Adult. I've done too much beating around the bush and rationalizing in my life...time to put my effort where my mouth is!

 

As an aside, I'm very interested in your KAP program. I wonder if you could give your professional opinion on its suitability for me as a practice based on the (admittedly very limited) knowledge you have of me from my posts?

 

-------------------------------------

 

XieJia,

 

Best wishes to you too!

 

Don't lose track of the present though...

 

Things comes and go.

 

Such as the whining and the stop-whining; all is the truth. Take it at the present and since these feeling should be long time gone. Don't worry too much about them. But listen and observe them; for they are very useful if you want to change your habit.

 

Best Wishes,

 

XieJia

 

I'm not entirely sure I understand your meaning in this part "Take it at the present and since these feeling should be long time gone. Don't worry too much about them." I assume you mean these feelings should have arisen and passed through me naturally by now, so I shouldn't concern myself with them by obsessing over them? Or something along those lines...

 

--------------------------------

 

The Observer,

 

I think you are right in taking responsibility for your own actions and not playing the blame game. Don't put yourself down though!

 

I'm still working on the "not putting myself down" part. Again, that whole self-love thing I need to work on and develop...

 

---------------------------------

 

CowTao (by the way, I love your handle ),

 

Cat Pillar,

 

May i recommend a book that i found to be quite related to some of the issues that are being discussed here? I have worked with it many years ago... gladly, it had worked with me as well:

 

"Love is Letting Go of Fear" (G. Jambolsky) - http://www.amazon.com/Love-Letting-Fear-Gerald-Jampolsky/dp/0890872465

 

Somewhere in the book, it says, "Teach only love, for that is what you are."

 

 

 

Wishing you liberation!

 

Thank you for your wishes! Same to you!

 

I checked out the link, although I haven't ready any sample pages. To be honest, I'm not sure I can fit another book into my already long list. But, it does look like a good book based on the description and reviews. I'll certainly keep it in consideration, and thank you for the recommendation.

 

---------------------------

 

Okay, all caught up! This obsessive need to respond to everyone individually might cause me some problems, hehehe.

[The Observer]

 

The Observer,

 

 

 

I'm still working on the "not putting myself down" part. Again, that whole self-love thing I need to work on and develop...

 

---------------------------------

 

 

Okay, all caught up! This obsessive need to respond to everyone individually might cause me some problems, hehehe.

 

Lol I personally appreciated the direct response. And yeah as long as you have the self-love thing in your mind....that's good; with that, your a hundred miles ahead of the rest!

Edited February 7, 2011 by The Observer

[fiveelementtao]

I like the sound of that shamanic approach. Unfortunately, meditations of that type are a problem for me. I'm realizing that I still have very strong belief barriers to effectively pursuing that methodology. There's still a strong part of me that doesn't really believe in guides or things like that. Or rather, the skeptic inside whispers that such experiences would likely consist of me "making shit up" as I go, and thus would not have any kind of reliable basis for acceptance. Hmm...how interesting. A unique puzzle...and the primary reason why for so long I pursued mystical experience, something to confirm the validity of things like guides.

 

I think it's a trust issue mostly...again, something that will probably be tremendously helped by cultivating love and compassion for myself.

 

I totally relate...

 

IME, The great thing about shamanic work is that you don't have to believe. It is only necessary to take the action. What I have found is that the part of my brain that criticizes and tells me I am making it up is only one part of my essence. However, if I take action only on the part that disbelieves everything, then that is what I experience. However, I have found that I can take action that is totally contrary to my beliefs and it still works.

 

So, it's OK to totally disbelieve what you are doing and still have success. IN fact you can be laughing at yourself for doing something so silly. So, when my head tells me that "this shaman stuff is stupid," I laugh along with it and say, "Yeah let's try it out so we can laugh about it later.".. This is not like modern religion where one must have faith. It is the action that is necessary not belief....

 

The other way to look at shamanic work is to tell yourself that it's only a psychological game. It still works that way too, because even if it is just your psyche talking to itself, you are still learning valuable information about your thought process which allows you to take different actions to get different results...

[goldisheavy]

I spent an hour trying to write up this long and introspective post about certain psychological and emotional hurdles I'm faced with. But each time I would get near the end, have the wording just right to properly convey the situation...I'd think to myself, "You're being a whiny little bitch. Stop it. Put up or shut up, your complaining won't do shit. No one else can fix you, it's all on your shoulders." And then I'd delete the post. This happened a couple of times.

 

I believe this voice every time I hear it. I base my trust in this voice on the belief that I am 100% responsible for any suffering I experience, and I am 100% responsible for dealing with it.

 

Am I delusional for thinking this voice is telling me the truth, or is it the clearest thought I've had all day? The voice says I should delete this post too.

 

The short answer is: it depends. The long answer is below.

 

If you're a solitary animal who is born with eyes open, standing up from day 1, with a body that requires no clothing or shelter, with all the instincts necessary for survival in place, then indeed, if you fuck up, you can only blame yourself. So in some realms, under some conditions, it is strictly true that you should only blame yourself.

 

In the human realm, we are born helpless and non-viable. We can hardly see and hear, and forget about standing up straight. Our instincts are way off (how many kids stick their fingers in the wall socket or burn them on the hot stove?). How many kids naturally know what is poisonous and what is safe to eat? All that humans have to be taught. In contrast, animals and beings in other realms know this immediately and instinctively.

 

So right from the start, when you are born human, you depend on others. So right away you have some right to blame other people for your failures. People depend on each other for both mere survival and for prosperity. I've done some research on the survivalist and bushcraft movements, and even then, most people rely on knives that have been made from metal. In other words, I don't know any human that's completely self-sufficient, not even the most hard-core survivalists. I've heard that it's hypothetically possible to make flint knives and to live without a knife, alone, but realistically I don't know anyone who actually does that. And I doubt you are anywhere near this level of hard-core-ness. You're probably an average human who hasn't even tried to live alone in the woods without any reliance on society and its products.

 

Interdependence is a unique human weakness, but obviously, it's also our strength. While we are weak and stupid individually, as a group, humans are the most influential and dangerous group that exists on this planet. As a group we can obliterate any species and we have the power to destroy recognizable life on this planet.

 

In recognition of interdependence you have to realize that how you perform is hugely dependent on the people around you. If you work with good people, your performance will be a multiple of that when you work with a bunch of losers.

 

So blaming others is not unreasonable. At the same time, changing others is a very slow and uncertain process. Changing oneself is also hard. But you have a slightly better chance to change yourself than to change others. So while blaming others is logical and is justified, in terms of the immediate reward in the here and now it helps to focus on what you can do better rather than what others can do better. However! Long-term, it is not enough that only you alone improve and improve if people around you remain ignorant and with bad habits. So for immediate gain, for a gain you can feel in the here and now, it helps to focus on improving yourself. At the same time, as long as you plan to remain in human form, and plan to live as an interdependent human, it makes no sense to only focus on improving yourself and completely ignoring the people in your surrounding environment.

 

It's good to know your power, but it's also good to know your limitations when you're in the human form. If you don't like the limitations you have to ditch the human form first.

Edited February 7, 2011 by goldisheavy

[The Observer]

 

In the human realm, we are born helpless and non-viable.

 

 

I don't think so for a number of reasons...

 

 

We can hardly see and hear, and forget about standing up straight. Our instincts are way off (how many kids stick their fingers in the wall socket or burn them on the hot stove?). How many kids naturally know what is poisonous and what is safe to eat? All that humans have to be taught. In contrast, animals and beings in other realms know this immediately and instinctively.

 

 

I know for example, baby kittens are born almost completely blind (and I consider cats very self sufficient animals). Also cats, as well as almost every other animal, learn a wide range of things, from grooming to manners, from watching or being taught by mom/others in their own species. So you could say animals are as dependent as us in the early phases of life.

 

 

 

 

Interdependence is a unique human weakness, but obviously, it's also our strength. While we are weak and stupid individually, as a group, humans are the most influential and dangerous group that exists on this planet. As a group we can obliterate any species and we have the power to destroy recognizable life on this planet.

 

 

 

I don't think we are individually weak and stupid. We are only as intellectually capable as we need to be based on our current surrounding factors. It's like calling a monkey stupid for not knowing how to use a calculator. He hasn't needed to learn to use one to live in the rainforest. Vice versa for urban humans, who haven't lived in the wild for a very long time. How can you be stupid for not knowing how to forage for food when it wasn't previously a necessary skill for you?

 

It's all relative.

 

 

 

In recognition of interdependence you have to realize that how you perform is hugely dependent on the people around you. If you work with good people, your performance will be a multiple of that when you work with a bunch of losers.

 

 

 

So blaming others is not unreasonable. At the same time, changing others is a very slow and uncertain process. Changing oneself is also hard. But you have a slightly better chance to change yourself than to change others. So while blaming others is logical and is justified, in terms of the immediate reward in the here and now it helps to focus on what you can do better rather than what others can do better. However! Long-term, it is not enough that only you alone improve and improve if people around you remain ignorant and with bad habits. So for immediate gain, for a gain you can feel in the here and now, it helps to focus on improving yourself. At the same time, as long as you plan to remain in human form, and plan to live as an interdependent human, it makes no sense to only focus on improving yourself and completely ignoring the people in your surrounding environment.

 

It's good to know your power, but it's also good to know your limitations when you're in the human form. If you don't like the limitations you have to ditch the human form first.

 

 

A lot of good points! I would add that changing oneself causes those surrounding you to change, mainly in subtle ways, even without trying. I would say this is better than actively trying to change others.

[Cat Pillar]

I totally relate...

 

IME, The great thing about shamanic work is that you don't have to believe. It is only necessary to take the action. What I have found is that the part of my brain that criticizes and tells me I am making it up is only one part of my essence. However, if I take action only on the part that disbelieves everything, then that is what I experience. However, I have found that I can take action that is totally contrary to my beliefs and it still works.

 

So, it's OK to totally disbelieve what you are doing and still have success. IN fact you can be laughing at yourself for doing something so silly. So, when my head tells me that "this shaman stuff is stupid," I laugh along with it and say, "Yeah let's try it out so we can laugh about it later.".. This is not like modern religion where one must have faith. It is the action that is necessary not belief....

 

The other way to look at shamanic work is to tell yourself that it's only a psychological game. It still works that way too, because even if it is just your psyche talking to itself, you are still learning valuable information about your thought process which allows you to take different actions to get different results...

 

Approaching it as a psychological game sounds like a very viable method for me. Something I had actually thought about as far as the sub-personality or archetype topic is concerned.

 

I'm all about action over belief. Faith has never done much for me, my best results have definitely come from action. Hmm, guess that means I should practice it more, hehehe.

 

I'm thinking of taking some time and calling a general meeting, where "everyone" can get a chance to have their say and see if we can't all get on the same page.

 

-----------------------

 

goldisheavy,

 

And I doubt you are anywhere near this level of hard-core-ness. You're probably an average human who hasn't even tried to live alone in the woods without any reliance on society and its products.

 

That's certainly true! I'm definitely not a hard-core survivalist, and would probably get eaten by gophers out in the wild. (Don't question how, I'm sure I'd find a way, lol).

 

Interdependence is a unique human weakness, but obviously, it's also our strength. While we are weak and stupid individually, as a group, humans are the most influential and dangerous group that exists on this planet. As a group we can obliterate any species and we have the power to destroy recognizable life on this planet.

 

I think that depends a lot on the context. In some situations group think can considerably lessen your intelligence and rational thinking; y'know, mobs, riots, that kind of situation. Cooperative teamwork is where the strength of standing together really shines, but it requires full application of each individual's personal skills - which I agree is sympathetic, and good results are multiplied by working with good people.

 

Also, I would argue that while they certainly do owe some things to their environment (without which they wouldn't have a context to work in) geniuses like Albert Einstein are a good example of strong individual intelligence contributing greatly to the whole.

 

So for immediate gain, for a gain you can feel in the here and now, it helps to focus on improving yourself. At the same time, as long as you plan to remain in human form, and plan to live as an interdependent human, it makes no sense to only focus on improving yourself and completely ignoring the people in your surrounding environment.

 

I wouldn't say I ignore my surrounding environment...I just tend to gravitate more towards the idea that changing and cultivating myself is one of the most effective methods of transforming my surroundings (as The Observer alludes to in his post).

 

---------------------------------

 

Lol I personally appreciated the direct response. And yeah as long as you have the self-love thing in your mind....that's good; with that, your a hundred miles ahead of the rest!

 

[ShaktiMama]

 

 

Shaktimama,

 

 

 

I have been consistently impressed with the quality and character of responses I have gotten in my threads.

 

The idea of saving a draft is a good one, I'll have to remember that for future "outbursts," hehe. I do tend to feel better after I vent, most of the time. Except when that little voice gets loud enough and I drop my guard enough to start feeling bad/beating myself up. Most of the time I don't need anyone else to whup my ass, I'm pretty good at doing that kind of thing myself.

 

I'm very serious about cultivation, refining my character, and as you put it developing my Inner Adult. I've done too much beating around the bush and rationalizing in my life...time to put my effort where my mouth is!

 

As an aside, I'm very interested in your KAP program. I wonder if you could give your professional opinion on its suitability for me as a practice based on the (admittedly very limited) knowledge you have of me from my posts?

 

 

 

Hey CP,

Sorry about my lateness. I was at the Jenny Lamb seminar this weekend.

 

What makes you a good candidate is a willingness to learn and to open yourself to awareness of your self during the classes.

 

We have had extremely sophisticated practitioners take the course and love it. We have had rank beginners take the class and love it. And of course, you can't please everybody. It is not for everyone.

 

You will do better than the average student if you already have some sensitivity to energy.

 

You can take the course on line or in a face to face environment.

 

Santi and I won't be teaching a class together until after June. He is producing for Nickelodeon and three bands, teaching Silat locally, etc..etc..

 

Me, I am just plain busy too.

 

But there are other instructors who are very good also.

 

PM me if you want to talk further. There are people who are opposed to any discussion about KAP on the bums. It is just more peaceful if you do. Namaste.

 

s

-------------------------------------

 

 

 

---------------------------------

 

CowTao (by the way, I love your handle ),

 

 

 

Thank you for your wishes! Same to you!

 

I checked out the link, although I haven't ready any sample pages. To be honest, I'm not sure I can fit another book into my already long list. But, it does look like a good book based on the description and reviews. I'll certainly keep it in consideration, and thank you for the recommendation.

 

 

THIS BOOK ROCKS! Read it later but read it. It is a paradigm shifter.

s

---------------------------

 

[Cat Pillar]

Thanks, Shaktimama! I'm all about promoting peace, so I'll PM you with any further questions.

[goldisheavy]

I'm all about action over belief. Faith has never done much for me, my best results have definitely come from action. Hmm, guess that means I should practice it more, hehehe.

 

Action is belief. Belief is action. If you say you believe X but your actions indicate Y, then really you believe Y and not X. Your actions reveal your true beliefs while your words may reveal your true beliefs and they may also reveal things you wish you believed, but you don't yet.

 

I think that depends a lot on the context. In some situations group think can considerably lessen your intelligence and rational thinking; y'know, mobs, riots, that kind of situation.

 

I agree. This is why all my examples were given in terms of potential violent and disruptive change and not wisdom. I said that human groups have the greatest potential to effect change compared to any other groups living on this Earth today. I didn't mean to imply wisdom per se, but only the degree of influence.

 

Cooperative teamwork is where the strength of standing together really shines, but it requires full application of each individual's personal skills - which I agree is sympathetic, and good results are multiplied by working with good people.

 

See, humans are so interconnected and interdependent, that we can't even take a shit without relying on at least ten thousand other humans. I'm serious. You probably think that acting in a team is an option. I'm saying our interdependence is vastly deeper and more profound than that. It's not something optional that we can select at some point. It's a given. Our psyches, our bodies, everything inside, outside, about, in and out of us is made of the human culture, which is the sum total of all human experience.

 

So while blaming others may not be popular or helpful in every situation, it is not illogical either. To overstress self-dependence is a mistake unless you have every intention of abandoning the human realm. The kinds of people who are "no words all action" and "I only blame myself for every failure" tend to be very callous, lacking in compassion toward others, brutal, unhelpful, conservative, ignorant, etc... I don't know you, so don't take it personally. But it is a warning. Over-self-reliance is a danger sign.

 

Basically there are two extremes: Over-reliance on others -- that's one extreme. Over-reliance on oneself -- that's another extreme. Both extremes are bad and dangerous within the human realm.

 

I keep emphasizing the human realm, because you can enter other realms where the rules are different, and then what I am saying here just doesn't apply.

 

So of course cultivating oneself and focusing on what one can do better is a very powerful and useful approach, but when taken to an extreme, it can be very negative and very destructive.

[Cat Pillar]

Action is belief. Belief is action. If you say you believe X but your actions indicate Y, then really you believe Y and not X. Your actions reveal your true beliefs while your words may reveal your true beliefs and they may also reveal things you wish you believed, but you don't yet.

 

I think the dynamic is a little more complicated than that, but I do agree with the basic premise that actions are more revealing of your true values than what you say about your beliefs.

 

I agree. This is why all my examples were given in terms of potential violent and disruptive change and not wisdom. I said that human groups have the greatest potential to effect change compared to any other groups living on this Earth today. I didn't mean to imply wisdom per se, but only the degree of influence.

 

Ah, I didn't fully pick up on that context in the post, thank you for clarifying.

 

So while blaming others may not be popular or helpful in every situation, it is not illogical either. To overstress self-dependence is a mistake unless you have every intention of abandoning the human realm. The kinds of people who are "no words all action" and "I only blame myself for every failure" tend to be very callous, lacking in compassion toward others, brutal, unhelpful, conservative, ignorant, etc... I don't know you, so don't take it personally. But it is a warning. Over-self-reliance is a danger sign.

 

WHACHOO SAYIN' BOUT ME!? hehehe, just kidding...

 

I see what you're saying here, and your warning is duly noted. It's not that I don't acknowledge the role that others play in my situation, I just don't see the use of "blaming" anyone for it. Sure, my parents played a big role in helping to develop and nurture many of my psychological issues, as well as all the school kids that picked on me constantly. What good will blaming them for it do? Much better to simply refine and reframe my understanding of these situations, and cultivate compassion for the circumstances and events that contributed to their contributions to my circumstances and events. As you say, we're all interconnected...in the same way that I may not be fully at fault for my circumstances, neither is anyone else. Although, I think that's probably the point you're trying to get across?

 

I keep emphasizing the human realm, because you can enter other realms where the rules are different, and then what I am saying here just doesn't apply.

 

Your emphasis is well-placed. I've no idea how to access these other realms and I'm not sure I'd want to if I could. Unless maybe it was for a short visit, hehe.

 

So of course cultivating oneself and focusing on what one can do better is a very powerful and useful approach, but when taken to an extreme, it can be very negative and very destructive.

 

I agree, pretty much anything when taken to an extreme becomes harmful.

[goldisheavy]

I see what you're saying here, and your warning is duly noted. It's not that I don't acknowledge the role that others play in my situation, I just don't see the use of "blaming" anyone for it.

 

It all depends on what you mean by "use." Let's see what happens if you only ever blame yourself. In that case, if you keep failing, you may become embittered toward yourself or even completely lose faith in yourself. If you realize that your own input is an important part of the whole, but is not the whole, then you may have a reason to be kinder to yourself and to not lose faith as quickly. If some of your failures are due to bad luck or incompatible people around you, you may have a reason to try again while maintaining a cheerful disposition.

 

On the other hand, if your failure is purely attributable to you, then God forbid you fail a few times in a row, you may start to believe you are hopeless or an idiot and that nothing can be done about it. You may fall into despair.

 

If you only blame yourself, then you may not ask others for help. You may have difficulty trusting others, relying on others and delegating tasks to others. You may have a desire to micromanage other people if you happen to manage them while holding such extreme belief in self-reliance.

 

Now let's suppose you only ever blame yourself, but also, you just happen to succeed a lot. What will happen in this case? In this case you can become heartless and callous toward others. You may refuse to help them when asked. You may be angry and bitter toward others who fail and ask for help. You will be likely expecting everyone around you to be self-reliant in the same way you are, and thus you can easily become a dick to other people.

 

Sure, my parents played a big role in helping to develop and nurture many of my psychological issues, as well as all the school kids that picked on me constantly. What good will blaming them for it do? Much better to simply refine and reframe my understanding of these situations, and cultivate compassion for the circumstances and events that contributed to their contributions to my circumstances and events. As you say, we're all interconnected...in the same way that I may not be fully at fault for my circumstances, neither is anyone else. Although, I think that's probably the point you're trying to get across?

 

Dwelling on the past too much is not helpful. In that sense blaming others doesn't help, because it's just dwelling on the past. Judiciously looking back on things, when not done too much, is helpful. It helps one learn to avoid the past mistakes. If we understand the word "blame" to mean "hold one accountable" then I think things make more sense. Who should you hold accountable? Yourself? Of course. That's the starting point for you and the point of your personal power. But at the same time, if that's all you can see, if you can't understand how accountability spreads to many many people for many many things, you can become crazy, embittered, hopeless, brutal, jackass, or experience any number of other psychological problems.

 

So if you hold yourself accountable first and foremost, that's a good thing, in my opinion. But if you take it to an extreme, then it can easily become a very bad thing.

[Otis]

Approaching it as a psychological game sounds like a very viable method for me. Something I had actually thought about as far as the sub-personality or archetype topic is concerned.

I just wanted to echo Five Element Tao's recommendations, because I think it's a great model for self-inquiry. And yes, I agree that if using psych language helps you, then choose that (it works for me).

 

The way I see it is: I am not one thing, but a constellation of functions. Some are functions for breathing and digesting, some for doing math, some for connecting to other humans.

 

The voices in my head are merely alarm functions. They are there to serve me, to remind me: better floss your teeth, take time and listen to this other person, go back and check the stove, to make sure it's not on.

 

So, they're all useful, but sometimes they get out of control. An OCD sufferer checks the stove, but the alarm won't stop ringing, so he checks it again, but the alarm keeps going, so he checks it again, etc.

 

So yes, the voice that is telling you to take responsibility is a useful function. But it does sound like it's also gotten corrupted, somewhat! The big hint is that the voice is putting YOU down, as if that voice was not just part of you. In other words, when the voice acts as if it is somehow NOT YOU, but is above you in some way, then it is clearly delusional, because there are no alien invaders in your head, just parts of you.

 

In my head, the critic voices often sound a lot like my more critical parent (in my case, my mom). Of course, it's not my mom, but because she was so instrumental in conditioning that critic within me, it feels a lot like her. So I give that voice all kinds of extra importance because 1. it sounds like a real authority figure, 2. it's so damn confident, and 3. it brings out the whimpering kid part of me.

 

Not to analyze you, but you spoke about your relationship with your dad, and it makes me wonder if your critic voices tend to resemble him? Maybe that's why you can't accept yourself, even though your dad now does, because you're still trying to finish the job for (what feels like, sounds like) him?

 

For me, I have achieved a great deal of real peace by exposing these voices, not as things that are smarter or more moral than me, but just as alarms that are there to serve me. Once I see their function, then it's much easier for those various parts within my head to make peace, and work together as a team. The best way I see to find non-separation, is to first heal separation in my own head.

 

Kudos to you for opening up so much on this thread, and best to you!

[Otis]

Oh, and I have a question for you, Cat Pillar. When you are alone, do you sometimes feel as if there is someone (like an 'invisible observer') watching you, judging you, maybe looking over your shoulder? I think that sensation is another form of alarm function.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Otis

[Birch]

The best way I see to find non-separation, is to first heal separation in my own head.

 

What if you can't hear "them" any more because you spent so much time shutting them up? Not that I'd have the chatter back, it's a helluva more peaceful. But I do wonder "where" they've gone and if it was an especially healthy thing to do to rid myself of them. The emotions are still there however. I'm not getting rid of those No Spockization for yours truly,no way

[Otis]

What if you can't hear "them" any more because you spent so much time shutting them up? Not that I'd have the chatter back, it's a helluva more peaceful. But I do wonder "where" they've gone and if it was an especially healthy thing to do to rid myself of them.

Good question.

[Red Pheonix]

I spent an hour trying to write up this long and introspective post about certain psychological and emotional hurdles I'm faced with. But each time I would get near the end, have the wording just right to properly convey the situation...I'd think to myself, "You're being a whiny little bitch. Stop it. Put up or shut up, your complaining won't do shit. No one else can fix you, it's all on your shoulders." And then I'd delete the post. This happened a couple of times.

 

I believe this voice every time I hear it. I base my trust in this voice on the belief that I am 100% responsible for any suffering I experience, and I am 100% responsible for dealing with it.

 

Am I delusional for thinking this voice is telling me the truth, or is it the clearest thought I've had all day? The voice says I should delete this post too.

 

Hey Cat... first off *big huuuuuuuuug*

 

Don't take yourself so seriously! It is as they say; water which is dammed cannot flow.

 

When I finish writing this I'm going to send you a special intention, I need you to receive it though (should you choose to). Stand or sit and get comfy, place your tongue on the roof of your mouth and simply breathe through your nose. Listen to the sound of the wind as it flows in and out, this is a beautiful wind that is the very light of heaven. See within yourself the light of your inner child... if you giggle it's ok, I might giggle too!

 

I prescribe for you some nature! Go on a walk or just be outside where you can experience the warmth of her embrace and observe the wisdom of her flow. Take her in just as you take in that wind which is the light of heaven and find for yourself a new perspective from which a new part of yourself can smile

[Cat Pillar]

Dwelling on the past too much is not helpful. In that sense blaming others doesn't help, because it's just dwelling on the past. Judiciously looking back on things, when not done too much, is helpful. It helps one learn to avoid the past mistakes. If we understand the word "blame" to mean "hold one accountable" then I think things make more sense. Who should you hold accountable? Yourself? Of course. That's the starting point for you and the point of your personal power. But at the same time, if that's all you can see, if you can't understand how accountability spreads to many many people for many many things, you can become crazy, embittered, hopeless, brutal, jackass, or experience any number of other psychological problems.

 

So if you hold yourself accountable first and foremost, that's a good thing, in my opinion. But if you take it to an extreme, then it can easily become a very bad thing.

 

I see what you mean here, and understand your warning.

 

It all depends on what you mean by "use." Let's see what happens if you only ever blame yourself. In that case, if you keep failing, you may become embittered toward yourself or even completely lose faith in yourself. If you realize that your own input is an important part of the whole, but is not the whole, then you may have a reason to be kinder to yourself and to not lose faith as quickly. If some of your failures are due to bad luck or incompatible people around you, you may have a reason to try again while maintaining a cheerful disposition.

 

On the other hand, if your failure is purely attributable to you, then God forbid you fail a few times in a row, you may start to believe you are hopeless or an idiot and that nothing can be done about it. You may fall into despair.

 

If you only blame yourself, then you may not ask others for help. You may have difficulty trusting others, relying on others and delegating tasks to others. You may have a desire to micromanage other people if you happen to manage them while holding such extreme belief in self-reliance.

 

I've slipped down that slope before, so I can see the sense in your warning. I have often believed myself to be hopeless or an idiot, but I've made very good progress in the past few months moving away from those unhelpful self-imposed limitations. I spent over ten years in despair, I'm pretty wary of anything that might lead me back there.

 

-------------------------------

 

I just wanted to echo Five Element Tao's recommendations, because I think it's a great model for self-inquiry. And yes, I agree that if using psych language helps you, then choose that (it works for me).

 

The way I see it is: I am not one thing, but a constellation of functions. Some are functions for breathing and digesting, some for doing math, some for connecting to other humans.

 

The voices in my head are merely alarm functions. They are there to serve me, to remind me: better floss your teeth, take time and listen to this other person, go back and check the stove, to make sure it's not on.

 

So, they're all useful, but sometimes they get out of control. An OCD sufferer checks the stove, but the alarm won't stop ringing, so he checks it again, but the alarm keeps going, so he checks it again, etc.

 

So yes, the voice that is telling you to take responsibility is a useful function. But it does sound like it's also gotten corrupted, somewhat! The big hint is that the voice is putting YOU down, as if that voice was not just part of you. In other words, when the voice acts as if it is somehow NOT YOU, but is above you in some way, then it is clearly delusional, because there are no alien invaders in your head, just parts of you.

 

In my head, the critic voices often sound a lot like my more critical parent (in my case, my mom). Of course, it's not my mom, but because she was so instrumental in conditioning that critic within me, it feels a lot like her. So I give that voice all kinds of extra importance because 1. it sounds like a real authority figure, 2. it's so damn confident, and 3. it brings out the whimpering kid part of me.

 

Not to analyze you, but you spoke about your relationship with your dad, and it makes me wonder if your critic voices tend to resemble him? Maybe that's why you can't accept yourself, even though your dad now does, because you're still trying to finish the job for (what feels like, sounds like) him?

 

For me, I have achieved a great deal of real peace by exposing these voices, not as things that are smarter or more moral than me, but just as alarms that are there to serve me. Once I see their function, then it's much easier for those various parts within my head to make peace, and work together as a team. The best way I see to find non-separation, is to first heal separation in my own head.

 

Kudos to you for opening up so much on this thread, and best to you!

 

Thanks for the well wishes! You may be right about me simply trying to finish the job, or carrying on the work of the critical voice. The voice doesn't sound like him, though there are connections. I think the psychological model may be the easiest for me to work in.

 

And I think you're also spot on with your observation about the alarm function having become corrupted. The voice DOES act as if it knows better, is wiser and sees more clearly.

 

Oh, and I have a question for you, Cat Pillar. When you are alone, do you sometimes feel as if there is someone (like an 'invisible observer') watching you, judging you, maybe looking over your shoulder? I think that sensation is another form of alarm function.

 

I can't really recall having that kind of sensation...normally when I'm alone, if I'm not distracting myself with entertainment or meditating, I usually just withdraw inside.

 

--------------------------------

 

Hey Cat... first off *big huuuuuuuuug*

 

Don't take yourself so seriously! It is as they say; water which is dammed cannot flow.

 

When I finish writing this I'm going to send you a special intention, I need you to receive it though (should you choose to). Stand or sit and get comfy, place your tongue on the roof of your mouth and simply breathe through your nose. Listen to the sound of the wind as it flows in and out, this is a beautiful wind that is the very light of heaven. See within yourself the light of your inner child... if you giggle it's ok, I might giggle too!

 

I prescribe for you some nature! Go on a walk or just be outside where you can experience the warmth of her embrace and observe the wisdom of her flow. Take her in just as you take in that wind which is the light of heaven and find for yourself a new perspective from which a new part of yourself can smile

 

Thanks for the hug and the intention, fellow Texan! I didn't giggle, but it was nice and relaxing. Bit cold and rainy for a warming nature walk today, but...getting out in nature more would definitely do me some good. Growing up I spent a lot of time running around and playing in the forest, and it's definitely something I miss.

[Red Pheonix]

Thanks for the hug and the intention, fellow Texan! I didn't giggle, but it was nice and relaxing. Bit cold and rainy for a warming nature walk today, but...getting out in nature more would definitely do me some good. Growing up I spent a lot of time running around and playing in the forest, and it's definitely something I miss.

 

Oh don't let the cold stop ya... just turn on the internal fire Last friday, when it was all ice and cold, Master Zhang was in his backyard, in his undies, melting snow (he stays in Denton at times when he's not traveling... ssssshhh). Go go gadget fire dragon!!!

[Cat Pillar]

Oh don't let the cold stop ya... just turn on the internal fire Last friday, when it was all ice and cold, Master Zhang was in his backyard, in his undies, melting snow (he stays in Denton at times when he's not traveling... ssssshhh). Go go gadget fire dragon!!!

 

Mind telling me where the switch is?

[Red Pheonix]

Mind telling me where the switch is?

 

*puts on best Steve Irwin/Cartman accent* Sure, what you're gonna wanna do is take your thumb and jam it up your... oh wait... that's for something else!

 

Ok, for reals; heres a simple technique to start with. Sitting in full lotus (or as close as you can get) is best as it prevents your energy from going lower than your lowest dan tien. Breath slowly and naturally into your lower dan tien, it should expand vs your lungs. Make the sound 'Huo' slowly so that it resonates in this part of your body. In your mind, see a fireball there that you are churning and growing. As you inhale (through your nose), listen to the sound and feel it's beauty... this is the wind that is feeding your fire. As you exhale make the Huo sound. As for your hands, place your palms together as you might imagine a Buddhist sitting.

 

A simple technique, effective not only in generating heat, but also in developing your lower dan tien. Once you master this, you can move the energy to your kidneys as well so that when you breath your lower dan tien expands as well as your back (where the kidneys are).

 

give it a shot!