[TTC Study] Chapter 21 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[manitou]

Lin Yutang: (Last stanza only, the preceding are very similar)

 

 

From the days of old till now

Its Named (manifested forms) have never ceased,

By which we may view the Father of All Things.

How do I know the shape of Father of All Things?

Through These! (then Lin has footnoted 'manifested forms' after this line)

 

 

It seems like there are some pretty powerful disparities between the translations, going to the essence of the chapter. I think the essence of the chapter is that the Tao manifests from the inside to the outside. If the Tao could be visualized as a bright white light, then all of its manifestations radiate along the rays. All of the translations seem to be saying that in order to understand any aspect of the Named (manifested forms, including us) we have to follow it back (reversion) to the well of the Tao. Somehow when I read this chapter it reminds me that 'the oak is in the acorn', which to me is a pretty powerful latency. The intent is built into that little seed.

 

What Yutang seems to do, is he infers that we can also see the shape of the Father of All Things through the forms! If we truly can see what is under the form, what the cause of the form was, what the intent of the form is, and why the form was needed in the first place....that through inference we can know the Father.

 

But it seems that there is only one translator, John Wu, that took the extra step and told us to look inside ourselves for the Tao. 'How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning? By what is within me.' This is as deep as it gets, I think. The Tao lives within. We must go in to find it. Sounds like self-realization to me....

Edited February 4, 2011 by manitou

[Marblehead]

Hi Manitou,

 

I agree with everything in your post. And yes, I have held to these concepts for quite some time.

 

I do hold very strongly to the thought that if we view the processes in the Manifest we may know the processes of Tao.

 

I also hold strongly that it is within where we will find all the answers to our questions as to how to find contentment.

 

Thanks for sharing that. Very well stated.

[manitou]

Marbles, you and I are always on the same page. Except for the L-word.

[Marblehead]

Marbles, you and I are always on the same page. Except for the L-word.

 

Hehehe. Yeah, the "L" word. That's one of those four-letter words.

 

Of course, we both do enjoy Lin Yutang very much so it isn't too much of a surprise.

 

I do have his "The Wisdom of Laotse" in hard copy and really do enjoy how he dealt with both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

[manitou]

I serendipitously found The Wisdom of China and India, edited by Lin Yutang, at a yard sale some years back. It has a large section on Changtse, Mystic and Humorist. Also the Middle Way of Confucius. It was written in 1942; I just couldn't live without this old book. It never sees the bookshelf.

 

I think I'm going to send out an invitation for others to join us here. I'm not sure everyone looks up at the pinned topics all the time. This is really a wonderful thread, methinks....

Edited February 5, 2011 by manitou

[Lucky7Strikes]

Formless and shapeless!

 

Intangible but apparent!

 

Proof is in its own pudding!

 

[devoid]

Everybody - we're having some nice discussions about the individual chapters of the Tao up in the pinned Tao Te Ching topic. We're just not getting enough participation. This is some good meaty stuff. Please join us?

 

Hi manitou,

 

Thanks for your encouragement to join into the discussion. I decided to give it a go although I must tell you up-front I consider myself no scholar in the Tao Teh Ching, thus please forgive me for approaching it clumsily.

 

I think it is great that Marblehead kicked off with the various variants through the different translations. Reading through all gives one multiple insights into the same. Just like the tao can never be explained fully (either too this or too that, yet sometimes quite the opposite) so too goes it with translation.

 

I think the conclusion to each translation is the real deal here. It speaks to us just like Descartes when he realized Je pense donc je suis / Cogito ergo sum / I think therefore I am. Chapter 21 tells us that because of us contemplating chapter 21 and pondering on the tao, it is.

[Marblehead]

Hi Devoid,

 

Credit for this subforum should go to Twinner. It was he who had the idea and got things started. I am just continuing what others have worked hard on to bring to reality.

 

But yes, absolutely, join in the discussions whenever you get the urge. I think it is always fun to look at the chapters from different points of view.

[Tree Stump]

But it seems that there is only one translator, John Wu, that took the extra step and told us to look inside ourselves for the Tao. 'How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning? By what is within me.' This is as deep as it gets, I think. The Tao lives within. We must go in to find it. Sounds like self-realization to me....

 

Yeah it's clear John Wu has taken a liberty in adding 'within me'. Why do you think this is valid, are there other verses that point to the way Tao as being within (in consensus) ?

 

- TS

[Marblehead]

Yeah it's clear John Wu has taken a liberty in adding 'within me'. Why do you think this is valid, are there other verses that point to the way Tao as being within (in consensus) ?

 

- TS

 

Hi TS,

 

Yes, I think it is fair to say that Lin Yutang took liberties in translating that last line. Perhaps a translation and interpretation?

 

But, others have done so as well, for example, Stephen Mitchell's translation reads:

 

I look inside myself and see.

 

There are a couple more I can point out if you are interested.

[Apech]

This chapter makes me think about how difficult it is to follow the Tao - especially in worldly pressured situations. The world seems to demand certainty (where often it doesn't really exist) and being subtle doesn't wash. I saw a film today with Will Smith called Pursuit of Happiness (didn't really like the film cos the end just seemed to justify the system) but as a character he was being pressurized by forces into being corporate man - pushing himself into something unnatural ... and I thought how bad that is - but when the answer is something fluid and subtle (evasive) how does it get the strength to 'be' in that kind of environment.

 

(sorry if this doesn't make sense)

[manitou]

This chapter makes me think about how difficult it is to follow the Tao - especially in worldly pressured situations. The world seems to demand certainty (where often it doesn't really exist) and being subtle doesn't wash. I saw a film today with Will Smith called Pursuit of Happiness (didn't really like the film cos the end just seemed to justify the system) but as a character he was being pressurized by forces into being corporate man - pushing himself into something unnatural ... and I thought how bad that is - but when the answer is something fluid and subtle (evasive) how does it get the strength to 'be' in that kind of environment.

 

(sorry if this doesn't make sense)

 

 

You're right, the Tao isn't for sissies. But there is a huge reward. When we become adept at understanding and applying the Tao, we get to practice the wu-wei of life; the doing by not-doing. This can be translated into everyday life, as many times as we can remember to be in the moment, regardless of what we do for a living or how we spend our days. This is the beauty of the study of the Tao. When you're asking yourself what you should do, the answer probably is do nothing as to the cosmic dynamics of the situation. Learning to do this well is another situation.

 

It becomes almost a sorcery. It is The Art of War for everyday life. Part passive, with just a dash of passive aggression when needed...but always interfused with love or compassion for every being because we know that when we look at that Other, that the Other is us. The consciousness. The little black dot in the eye of a human, dog, horse, or insect. And once that sense of Oneness is realized we cannot hate another, regardless of what they're doing.

[The Observer]

You're right, the Tao isn't for sissies. But there is a huge reward. When we become adept at understanding and applying the Tao, we get to practice the wu-wei of life; the doing by not-doing. This can be translated into everyday life, as many times as we can remember to be in the moment, regardless of what we do for a living or how we spend our days. This is the beauty of the study of the Tao. When you're asking yourself what you should do, the answer probably is do nothing as to the cosmic dynamics of the situation. Learning to do this well is another situation.

 

It becomes almost a sorcery. It is The Art of War for everyday life. Part passive, with just a dash of passive aggression when needed...but always interfused with love or compassion for every being because we know that when we look at that Other, that the Other is us. The consciousness. The little black dot in the eye of a human, dog, horse, or insect. And once that sense of Oneness is realized we cannot hate another, regardless of what they're doing.

Awesome! -applause- Yes, sometimes the hardest thing is doing nothing. Why else would it take so long to learn how to enter truly deep meditation? You must train your mind to only and ONLY observe in a nonjudgemental way.

[Tree Stump]

...but always interfused with love or compassion for every being because we know that when we look at that Other, that the Other is us. The consciousness.

 

I'm interested how you reconcile your interpretation of the TTC with lines such as:

 

Ch 5:

"Heaven and Earth are impartial [are inhumane/not kind]; They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs.

The sage is impartial [is inhumane/not kind]; He sees the people as straw dogs. "

 

- TS

[Apech]

I'm interested how you reconcile your interpretation of the TTC with lines such as:

 

Ch 5:

"Heaven and Earth are impartial [are inhumane/not kind]; They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs.

The sage is impartial [is inhumane/not kind]; He sees the people as straw dogs. "

 

- TS

 

Hi TS,

 

We've discussed that one at length - read the thread(s) on it maybe someone has already answered your question.

 

Manitou,

 

Thanks for that answer!!!! Great. The path is not easy.

[devoid]

I'm interested how you reconcile your interpretation of the TTC with lines such as:

 

Ch 5:

"Heaven and Earth are impartial [are inhumane/not kind]; They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs.

The sage is impartial [is inhumane/not kind]; He sees the people as straw dogs. "

 

- TS

 

Hi TS,

 

I see your point, but at the same time, I am not sure I agree. What gets to me is that I neither see heaven, earth, nor any of the sages as the tao. Even if one would argue that the tao is impartial (which I don't necessarily agree with) this does not mean that it is necessarily unkind. Perhaps it's semantics, but impartial simply means without prejudice - as such this does not preclude kindness or empathy per se.

[Marblehead]

Even if one would argue that the tao is impartial (which I don't necessarily agree with) this does not mean that it is necessarily unkind. Perhaps it's semantics, but impartial simply means without prejudice - as such this does not preclude kindness or empathy per se.

 

Very, very important consideration.

 

Impartiality does not equate to unkindness.

[manitou]

To reconcile the straw dog question? That seems irreconcilable if you take the passage on its own, in its own context.

 

But to put it in alignment with the rest of the Tao, I would say that fortune and misfortune falls on everyone equally, without favor. I don't think the intent of the straw dog reference shows in any way that the Tao is unloving. I see it more as a well we can tap into, if we get down there far enough in our own self realization to use it.

 

The Sage is able to love (or feel compassion for) all varieties of sentient beings, without distinction; if the Tao treats all men as straw dogs, apparently so does the Sage. I've read that straw dogs were used as ceremonial proxys in certain situations. I don't think the term 'straw dogs' is used in an arrogant sense, like the Tao or the Sage wipes his feet on people or anything. I think it's used more to indicate the Sage's compassion extends to everyone equally, rich, poor, kind, mean.

[Mr. T]

hey all,

 

it's nice to see so many people participating, wow! quite a few good points have been made...particularly the issue of internalizing these teachings, and looking inside for refinement and spiritual advancement. the wording used in that translation do seem to place emphasis on that, thanks for sharing.

 

also, the issue of faith is brought up, and when the concept was introduced in my "formal" tao training it was a particularly mind-bending experience. faith? i am who i am because i was always a person who had abandoned the concept of faith, at least in terms of a "religion". this chapter really got me thinking....

 

also, i agree that picking out a line or two can be a dangerous practice...although i am guilty of doing it as much as the next guy!! see ya...

[Mr. T]

oh yeah, i know i am a relative new-comer to this site, but what is the "l-word" that you two disagree on? love, loss, luck? is it really 4-letters long??!! oh well, curiosity killed the cat, i suppose... later

[manitou]

oh yeah, i know i am a relative new-comer to this site, but what is the "l-word" that you two disagree on? love, loss, luck? is it really 4-letters long??!! oh well, curiosity killed the cat, i suppose... later

 

No, the kitty is still fine.

 

I'm more liberal with the word 'love' than Marbles is; he prefers compassion. I've started using both in my posts, because I love the feel of the word compassion as well. But I also like 'love', in the agape love sense, because it seems to be self-originating. Compassion to me indicates more of a reflex to stimulus, but that's probably just my experience...

 

It's more of a friendly jibing than a disagreement -

[Marblehead]

It's more of a friendly jibing than a disagreement -

 

Hehehe. Yes, Mr. T. That is what it is. I just don't like the "L" word, love, because it has so many connotations. "Compassion" has far fewer connotations.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 21 Manifestation of Tao Te

1. 孔德之容
2. 惟道是從。
3. 道之為物
4. 惟恍惟惚。
5. 惚兮恍兮
6. 其中有象。
7. 恍兮惚兮
8. 其中有物。
9. 窈兮冥兮
10. 其中有精。
11.其精甚真。
12.其中有信。
13.自古及今，
14.其名不去。
15.以閱眾甫。
16.吾何以知眾甫之狀哉！
17.以此。

Revision 21-1
1. The appearance of great virtue;
2. Only trails Tao.
3. This thing, Tao,
4. It's dull and hazy.
5. Amongst the dullness and haziness,
6. It has images.
7. Amongst the haziness and dullness,
8. It has things.
9. Amongst the profusion and dimness,
10. It has the essence.
11. Its essence is real,
12. And promising.
13. From present to ancient,
14. Its name does not vanish.
15. Using it to observe the origin of all things.
16. I can recognize the original state of all things!
17. From it.

Edited September 8, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yes, we can observe the Virtue of Tao through the processes throughout the universe.