What is your Enlightenment paradigm?

[thelerner]

The board probably chews on this topic every year. I'm looking for people to put in not just what Enlightenment means to them, but what tradition it comes from and what role models they have. Typical practice would be nice too.

 

I tend to split the concept into two pieces, physical and mental, people can have one or both. Glenn Morris wrote about enlightenment from a physical point of view with unmistakable effects. A powerful MCO and full blown Kundalini which increased physical strength, mental clarity and some psychic centers. This wasn't the end game, but a powerful step up in human evolution.

 

Dr. Morris was eclectic, but IMO most widely influenced by the Chinese schools, he mentions Mantak Chia's work, as well as many other Taoist ChiGung sources. As an American he wanted to find what works, and knock out cultural trimmings. So you can find many cultural schools that have some of the same techniques but have longer slower, more devotional and more holistic views of the practice.

 

I also think there is a separate mental enlightenment phenomena. Echkhardt Tolle's 'Now' series is a modern creation of a very old philosophy. I think he and others have achieved a state of enlightenment. You can find examples of this across the religious spectrum. Still I've heard descriptions of him as being frail, other I'd classify in the same mental enlightenment are also less robust. This may well be a conscious decision of the body and vanity being less important.

 

Zen is a Japanese construct (sort of unless you dig down to its roots). It may be one of the most successful schools at producing mental enlightenment. I have heard at higher levels there is chi gunglike energy arts introduced, but not at a beginner or intermediate level.

 

Maybe this viewpoint of enlightenment is too limited. What I like about it is I can go to places and see people, even train with them who are there.

 

So, what are your ideas?

 

Michael

[sifusufi]

I really have to ponder this!

Seems like everything came out of something else or amalgamated along the way.

[The Observer]

Maybe we should find out for ourselves; first hand?

Edited February 4, 2011 by The Observer

[devoid]

Hi Michael,

 

I consider myself a travelling taoist because the idea of the tao appeals to my intuition and because a travelling taoist IMHO is free enough to decide what to place value on and what not.

 

As such, I will consider any ideas and explore, modify or discard them as I see fit.

 

Now, this said, I am not against following a well-defined and tested path. I am pretty sure I did that previously: lived ascetically and at the end of it, I decided that next time around I would want to experiment some more to try better to understand life as a human as well as what cannot be explained. I thrive with it and in doing so I keep learning, experiencing and gaining more insight. Thus, to me enlightenment as such has become more of a path than a destination this time around.

[sifusufi]

It is ironic that Capoeira an art so full of spirit, life, joie de vivre evolved out of a commitment to be free.

Slavery was abolished in Brazil in 1888 yet the art has grown significantly world wide!

Capoeira is Brazilian! Roots in Africa, Portuguese is the language of capoeira. Brazilian Portuguese that is.

Any attempt to re-Africanize it will nullify what it is.

Candomble is candomble.

 

The Indus valley civilization which lies now in North India and Pakistan (1947) used sanskrit not devanagari

in the vedas, and was cultivated by aryans. Most Southern Californians shleppin' a yoga mat have over two dozen hatha styles to pick yet this is just one bud from the root.

 

I remember a Bruce Lee documentary where Kareem Abdul Jabbar states

"Jeet Kune Do is American" it's eclectic. ( I am sure all are familiar with Yip Man and the Bruce Hx)

 

I wonder how many of us would be on tao bums if it weren't for the Lee Jun Fan phenomenon?

 

Purists will be purists.

 

Then there are Dan Inosanto and Santiago Dobles. Not bad company eh?

 

I know this is an IMA forum but I arrived late to that party.

 

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has some history check it out. Scottish immigrants learn from Kano (Japanese) throw in that which is Brazil and the rest is history.

 

I will leave the rest to the experts and scholars

 

Thanks again for allowing my participation on this awesome international forum.

Edited February 4, 2011 by sifusufi

[surfingbudda]

Personally I really like what Ya Mu has said in the past about enlightenment on this forum. That enlightenment is when you become one with your true higher self, which is pure energy and consciousness, become one with the tao. I like how Ya Mu says there are always higher levels, enlightenment is not a end, it is a beginning to finding your true self so that you can reach new and higher levels. I like this view of enlightenment over the static version of you achieve some form of spiritual stature then thats it, you done with everything.

[Birch]

Oh my!

 

Definitely non-dualism. Recognition of one's limited perspective at any given moment. The sense of the world and the universe flowing through you rather than being "out there". The continuous discovery of what you are made of. The repeated banging "down to earth" again when you forget or you hit an edge of yourself or someone else.

 

Practices

 

- KAP

- Shaking

- Mindfulness

- Emptiness meditation (hanging out in the space between thoughts)

- Being in the world

- Random experiments upon self

- Good food

- Reading and research to gain useful "working knowledge" of whatever works

[sifusufi]

[Fireblood]

The board probably chews on this topic every year. I'm looking for people to put in not just what Enlightenment means to them, but what tradition it comes from and what role models they have. Typical practice would be nice too.

 

I tend to split the concept into two pieces, physical and mental, people can have one or both. Glenn Morris wrote about enlightenment from a physical point of view with unmistakable effects. A powerful MCO and full blown Kundalini which increased physical strength, mental clarity and some psychic centers. This wasn't the end game, but a powerful step up in human evolution.

 

Dr. Morris was eclectic, but IMO most widely influenced by the Chinese schools, he mentions Mantak Chia's work, as well as many other Taoist ChiGung sources. As an American he wanted to find what works, and knock out cultural trimmings. So you can find many cultural schools that have some of the same techniques but have longer slower, more devotional and more holistic views of the practice.

 

I also think there is a separate mental enlightenment phenomena. Echkhardt Tolle's 'Now' series is a modern creation of a very old philosophy. I think he and others have achieved a state of enlightenment. You can find examples of this across the religious spectrum. Still I've heard descriptions of him as being frail, other I'd classify in the same mental enlightenment are also less robust. This may well be a conscious decision of the body and vanity being less important.

 

Zen is a Japanese construct (sort of unless you dig down to its roots). It may be one of the most successful schools at producing mental enlightenment. I have heard at higher levels there is chi gunglike energy arts introduced, but not at a beginner or intermediate level.

 

Maybe this viewpoint of enlightenment is too limited. What I like about it is I can go to places and see people, even train with them who are there.

 

So, what are your ideas?

 

Michael

 

I was unsure about posting this but I guess I could always disappear again.

 

The starting point (when born) is no-mind, just pure perception.

 

Over the years we gather mental garbage, primarily due to emotional events, both good and bad.

 

These events form 'masks' or personalities or on a lower level they create attachments.

 

When we wipe a sufficient amount of them away then mind is no longer required as enough mental space is freed and deals with the rest of the issues.

 

Finally we operate again from a child like state i.e no cause-effect thinking, just pure perception and being in the now.

 

Of course there are different ways to get there:

 

Body: All the energy work (i.e yoga, chi kung systems etc. Chemically the attachments based on the emotion are dissolved over time.

 

Mentally: Any psychological methods that dissipate the underlying emotions that create attachment.

 

The problem is when people get there and they don't know how to get back, then they need to stay on top of a mountain as they generally become non-functional in society (at least temporarily).

 

Once enlightened you can always fall back to how you were and become unenlightened. Most people who go through this tend to leave their jobs as they can't deal with them immediately after the experience. You can always go back to functioning in the world but you have to pay your dues and constantly stay vigilant for the loss of the pristine state (unless you don't care about it).

 

As for the oneness then it is simply mental association in the current context you can perceive and are in right now. You can learn to switch this on and off.

 

Mindfulness can be switched on and off at will. As can Empty Mind = pure perception without cause-effect thinking and only switching on mind to deal with other people and then returning to no-mind.

 

How do I know this?

 

Because I've done it.

 

Kind Regards.

 

Fireblood.

 

(Why am I here on these forums? Because I used the psychological method. I'm looking to raise the Kundalini and attempt to gain the physical benefits).

 

(If you have questions then I'm willing to answer as best as I can. But I don't' have time for debates).

 

(Who has done this already?:Probably Eckhart Tolle, Ken Wilber, Glenn Morris in this time that I can know of, I'm sure there are others, I just don't know about them).

[dwai]

The board probably chews on this topic every year. I'm looking for people to put in not just what Enlightenment means to them, but what tradition it comes from and what role models they have. Typical practice would be nice too.

 

I tend to split the concept into two pieces, physical and mental, people can have one or both. Glenn Morris wrote about enlightenment from a physical point of view with unmistakable effects. A powerful MCO and full blown Kundalini which increased physical strength, mental clarity and some psychic centers. This wasn't the end game, but a powerful step up in human evolution.

 

Dr. Morris was eclectic, but IMO most widely influenced by the Chinese schools, he mentions Mantak Chia's work, as well as many other Taoist ChiGung sources. As an American he wanted to find what works, and knock out cultural trimmings. So you can find many cultural schools that have some of the same techniques but have longer slower, more devotional and more holistic views of the practice.

 

I also think there is a separate mental enlightenment phenomena. Echkhardt Tolle's 'Now' series is a modern creation of a very old philosophy. I think he and others have achieved a state of enlightenment. You can find examples of this across the religious spectrum. Still I've heard descriptions of him as being frail, other I'd classify in the same mental enlightenment are also less robust. This may well be a conscious decision of the body and vanity being less important.

 

Zen is a Japanese construct (sort of unless you dig down to its roots). It may be one of the most successful schools at producing mental enlightenment. I have heard at higher levels there is chi gunglike energy arts introduced, but not at a beginner or intermediate level.

 

Maybe this viewpoint of enlightenment is too limited. What I like about it is I can go to places and see people, even train with them who are there.

 

So, what are your ideas?

 

Michael

 

Now, I'm not an American though I live here. I am Indian and tend to resonate with the Indian paradigm. But my quest is for that one...so I practice Advaita (Non-Dualism) with a mix of Jnana and Bhakti (Knowledge and Devotion) Yoga.

 

I practice Tamil Siddhar Yoga and associated Kriyas, Arupa (Formless) Meditation, also practice Taoist Tai Chi Chuan and related Tao Gong meditation.

 

Also I find this demarcation between "Physical" and "Mental" enlightenment very interesting (albeit a tad baffling). Why does there need to exist this cartesian chasm? That which is (Enlightenment if one so chooses to call it) is felt in both mind and body because then there is no mind and no body, but there is only that one (Tad Ekam)!

Edited February 5, 2011 by dwai

[Fireblood]

'Enlightenment' is biological so it spans culture. Nothing to do with religions, although some try to claim it.

 

Why does meditation work? People try and keep their mind empty during it. What happens is that thoughts arise and the mind deals with them consciously or subconsciously one by one. Hence the beginner has a hard time (usually). Over time the thoughts decrease because each issue is resolved. This method takes a long time for most people, simply because it's a slow way to deal with all the issues.

 

Once the pristine state is recovered then full mental capacity is available, hence clear thinking, creativity etc.

 

Most people who start the process give up because they don't think they are getting any results. This is usually because people deal with easy issues in their life. When the dark stuff comes out, people don't like facing this so they stops. Some people call this phase dealing with the shadow self - which is basically all the bad crap that's happened in your life.

 

Anyhow, I thought I'd share that as I've learnt a lot from these forums.

 

Basically you don't need any gurus to do this using a psychological method. As for the inner alchemy, then that's not required for enlightenment but probably can lead to it. My take on all the inner alchemy stuff is that its all about the Kundalini. That's why most people go around in circles jumping from practice to practice. In addition they are stuck within an attachment or personality but are not even aware of it. But that's just my opinion and I know many will differ with it, but that's o.k, it just means we know different things.

 

I'm willing to share this freely if anyone is interested.

[Fireblood]

Now, I'm not an American though I live here. I am Indian and tend to resonate with the Indian paradigm. But my quest is for that one...so I practice Advaita (Non-Dualism) with a mix of Jnana and Bhakti (Knowledge and Devotion) Yoga.

 

I practice Tamil Siddhar Yoga and associated Kriyas, Arupa (Formless) Meditation, also practice Taoist Tai Chi Chuan and related Tao Gong meditation.

 

Also I find this demarcation between "Physical" and "Mental" enlightenment very interesting (albeit a tad baffling). Why does there need to exist this cartesian chasm? That which is (Enlightenment if one so chooses to call it) is felt in both mind and body because then there is no mind and no body, but there is only that one (Tad Ekam)!

 

Enlightenment (as it is called by some) is both. The approach people take is either weighted to the mental or the physical. Or there may be a balanced way too. I do not claim to know all the ways. Just to have experienced the result.

 

If you think that non-duality means no body then you haven't got it yet. It's just that simple. Unless you're talking about perception only.

[Aaron]

Hello Thelerner,

 

If you strip away the religious ideology from Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Taoism, what you find is that all of these religions basically believe enlightenment is achieved in the same way, but even more importantly agree about the basic precepts of enlightenment, i.e. detachment, freeing one's self from the ego, emptiness, etc.

 

I personally practiced Taoism for 19 years and never really understood more than just a basic assumption of enlightenment, Tao, and ego, it wasn't until I was exposed to Vendanta Hinduism via Alan Watts' "The Book" that I suddenly became aware of what this all means on an experiential level. I would consider myself enlightened now, at least in regards to understanding the nature of the ego, the truth about reality, and also what Tao is, but trying to explain this is pointless, because it doesn't make sense unless one already has sufficient practice and understanding to grasp the concepts.

 

With that in mind, it's also important to keep in mind that enlightenment isn't necessary, rather it's voluntary. One can lead a fulfilling life simply by doing what he or she does everyday. In fact enlightenment will not remove you from suffering or grant you freedom from your emotions, rather it allows you to view the world as it actually is and in so doing, grants you freedom from the restraints that ego places on you.

 

I would say that enlightenment can be achieved in nearly every religion if one is diligent, but in the same way, I also encourage people to understand why they wish to be enlightened. If one is building a foundation, it should be a sound one. A shoddy foundation will lead to shoddy spirituality.

 

Aaron

Edited February 6, 2011 by Twinner

[Fireblood]

With that in mind, it's also important to keep in mind that enlightenment isn't necessary, rather it's voluntary. One can lead a fulfilling life simply by doing what he or she does everyday. In fact enlightenment will not remove you from suffering or grant you freedom from your emotions, rather it allows you to view the world as it actually is and in so doing, grants you freedom from the restraints that ego places on you.

 

I would say that enlightenment can be achieved in nearly every religion if one is diligent, but in the same way, I also encourage people to understand why they which to be enlightened. If one is building a foundation, it should be a sound one. A shoddy foundation will lead to shoddy spirituality.

 

Aaron

 

Totally agree with this part: "In fact enlightenment will not remove you from suffering or grant you freedom from your emotions, rather it allows you to view the world as it actually is and in so doing, grants you freedom from the restraints that ego places on you."

 

The cliche that ends '...After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water', and nobody understands this until they've really been there.

 

Also lots of people who don't choose to go through enlightenment will definitely lead better lives than some that have gone through enlightenment. Enlightenment doesn't always mean a better life (although I love my life and appreciate the little things now).

 

Experiencing the result can't be explained in words, because the other person cannot know what you experienced by your words.

[Vajrahridaya]

Totally agree with this part: "In fact enlightenment will not remove you from suffering or grant you freedom from your emotions, rather it allows you to view the world as it actually is and in so doing, grants you freedom from the restraints that ego places on you."

 

From the Buddhist perspective there is complete liberation from psychological suffering in enlightenment, no matter what happens to the body of with thought as ones constant state of contemplation self liberates every experience on the most subtle level of cognition.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Fireblood]

From the Buddhist perspective there is complete liberation from psychological suffering in enlightenment, no matter what happens to the body of with thought as ones constant state of contemplation self liberates every experience on the most subtle level of cognition.

 

I didn't know the Buddist perspective. I am just going by experience.

 

The emotions are still available but can be left unused (best word I can think of). You still have to work to eat unless you become reliant on the state or begging or charity. And depending on how much money you have that can still be suffering for some.

[Vajrahridaya]

I didn't know the Buddist perspective. I am just going by experience.

 

The emotions are still available but can be left unused (best word I can think of). You still have to work to eat unless you become reliant on the state or begging or charity. And depending on how much money you have that can still be suffering for some.

 

Yes, all manor of things still happen, they just self liberate instantaneously through natural insight into the nature of all things. This is what's meant by omniscience. Not that you know all things, but that you know the nature of all things... directly, even before thought occurs in/as each moment.

[Sunya]

I came from a philosophical background, and so I used to really get excited when people mentioned 'mysticism' and 'ultimate truth' and all that exciting stuff.. then I got to practicing and got more in touch with the junk that proliferates my mind. Now, I don't really yearn so much for truth and just desire some peace.

 

The way I see it is that seeking enlightenment is like looking for an oasis with beautiful cool crystal clear blue lake that will provide the nourishment you seek. Once you get there though, you realize that it's a lake of burning hot lava. You have no choice but to jump in because you want the nourishment, but everything that I hold to be "me" will be burned up in the process. So knowing that, I'm sort of taking my time.. dipping my toes in...

[Fireblood]

Yes, all manor of things still happen, they just self liberate instantaneously through natural insight into the nature of all things. This is what's meant by omniscience. Not that you know all things, but that you know the nature of all things... directly, even before thought occurs in/as each moment.

 

Well done. You summarised the key to the whole thing: why?

 

If you understand the why to everything then you'll get there, maybe even in a few days.

 

The key is not understanding everything but that there is no understanding and that things (in your mind) just are and may not have a real reason to be like that, although working things out also works.

 

The dumb thing is that the Matrix movie explains it: 'It is not the spoon that bends, it is you'. That won't mean you'll bend spoons but it means that you make your meaning and when you realise that about each thing then it all eventually dawns on you. But reality remains as it is because it is 'you that bends' not the spoon.

 

There are other ways that get you there, of course.

 

(This probably all sounds a bit arrogant but I've given up caring about things like that.)

[Fireblood]

I came from a philosophical background, and so I used to really get excited when people mentioned 'mysticism' and 'ultimate truth' and all that exciting stuff.. then I got to practicing and got more in touch with the junk that proliferates my mind. Now, I don't really yearn so much for truth and just desire some peace.

 

The way I see it is that seeking enlightenment is like looking for an oasis with beautiful cool crystal clear blue lake that will provide the nourishment you seek. Once you get there though, you realize that it's a lake of burning hot lava. You have no choice but to jump in because you want the nourishment, but everything that I hold to be "me" will be burned up in the process. So knowing that, I'm sort of taking my time.. dipping my toes in...

 

The me dies. However slowly you go there. You'll still know everything you knew before and you can still build yourself back up if you want to, or a new self. But the me that starts out is not the me that is there at the end.

 

Be careful what you ask for, it might not be what you expected.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Fireblood

[Vajrahridaya]

 

(This probably all sounds a bit arrogant but I've given up caring about things like that.)

 

Does that just mean being more confident than those that don't have a sense of their own reference for non-referenced truth... those that think self reference is all there is? It's hard, knowing when not to shine and blind someone... I guess that's the process of coming back to Earth after you've been burnt to nothing/everything.

 

People think I'm so egotistical, but I'd gladly lay my back down to bridge the gap over mud for them, if it'd help them in the end... and not just boost their stupid sense of self referential pride... ah... compassion.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[manitou]

 

The cliche that ends '...After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water', and nobody understands this until they've really been there.

 

 

Beautifully said. It becomes a one day at a time exercise in fielding the stimulus that comes in to us, actually 'wearing' the enlightened mindset so that the love or compassion requires. Once the I Am consciousness is achieved, then it is just practiced. That's the mental part.

 

The physical part is the total relaxation and opening up of energy channels to allow the kundalini energy to flow; with practice, we can project this on to others for purposes of healing.

[Aaron]

Does that just mean being more confident than those that don't have a sense of their own reference for non-referenced truth... those that think self reference is all there is? It's hard, knowing when not to shine and blind someone... I guess that's the process of coming back to Earth after you've been burnt to nothing/everything.

 

People think I'm so egotistical, but I'd gladly lay my back down to bridge the gap over mud for them, if it'd help them in the end... and not just boost their stupid sense of self referential pride... ah... compassion.

 

 

Vaj,

 

I think the problem stems from your comment, "and not just boost their stupid sense of self referential pride"... you are holding these people's beliefs in contempt and they're feeling that. If you truly wish to show compassion for all people, then you must also accept these people for who and what they are, whether they act or think the way you want them to, or not.

 

In my experience enlightenment does not obliterate the self, it is still there, rather it allows you to understand the true nature of self, that you are not the passenger in a vehicle, but rather the entirety of everything in existence and once you understand that, you can open your eyes and for a second see the connection, that the space that exists doesn't exist and rather you are part of a greater whole.

 

I use this analogy. The stomach has bacteria that helps us to digest food. This bacteria is microscopic and seems to be separate from us, yet without it, we can't digest food. The fact is this bacteria is a part of our body, just as we are a part of much larger body. Being a part of the body, means we are the body. The existence of the body requires each part to exist as well, if you take away one, the rest can't survive. This interdependence means our body is not made of separate organisms, but rather it's a single organism with different functions.

 

If you are a part of a greater whole, then you also understand that by harming any other part of that whole, you also harm yourself. That is where true compassion stems, the knowledge that everything is not just related, but rather is the same thing, that by doing good for you, I am not just doing good for me, but I am doing good to me.

 

Now knowing this doesn't mean that one understands it on an enlightened or aware level, only that they have a knowledge of the topic. Being knowledgeable doesn't mean one is enlightened, enlightenment comes from awareness, that moment of realization that persists, rather than dissipates with time. That is the difference between being enlightened and having brief glimpses of enlightenment.

 

Aaron

Edited February 5, 2011 by Twinner

[C T]

Those who are caught upon the wave of enlightenment is as much caught upon the wave of what un-enlightenment is. For it is what it is not that creates the idea that there is such a thing as 'enlightenment', and many, many people die wondering if they are 'doing it the right way', instead of learning, as the process unfolds, to lose that sense of being overly self-conscious.

[Vajrahridaya]

Vaj,

 

I think the problem stems from your comment, "and not just boost their stupid sense of self referential pride"... you are holding these people's beliefs in contempt and they're feeling that.

 

Saying people are being stupid, is not the same as holding in contempt. Acting stupid is merely a short lasting condition arising upon ignorance, it's not a fundamental point of reference for anything of real substance.

 

If you truly wish to show compassion for all people, then you must also accept these people for who and what they are, whether they act or think the way you want them to, or not.

 

Always... internally, even if I reject that which makes them stupid externally.

 

In my experience enlightenment does not obliterate the self, it is still there, rather it allows you to understand the true nature of self, that you are not the passenger in a vehicle, but rather the entirety of everything in existence and once you understand that, you can open your eyes and for a second see the connection, that the space that exists doesn't exist and rather you are part of a greater whole.

 

Yes, in a sense.

 

I use this analogy. The stomach has bacteria that helps us to digest food. This bacteria is microscopic and seems to be separate from us, yet without it, we can't digest food. The fact is this bacteria is a part of our body, just as we are a part of much larger body. Being a part of the body, means we are the body. The existence of the body requires each part to exist as well, if you take away one, the rest can't survive. This interdependence means our body is not made of separate organisms, but rather it's a single organism with different functions.

 

In a sense, but you still have to transcend this as well, not in the going beyond sense, but in the cutting through to it's emptiness.

 

Being knowledgeable doesn't mean one is enlightened, enlightenment comes from awareness, that moment of realization that persists, rather than dissipates with time. That is the difference between being enlightened and having brief glimpses of enlightenment.

 

Aaron

 

I agree.