Dependent Origination

[Enishi]

On a purely theoretical level I think D.O. may be a more accurate description of reality than the assertion that the individual is just an illusion and only God/Oneness is real. With D.O., God/Oneness is an illusion as well and both the big and small illusions cocreate and holoraphically depend on one another. Thinking of it in that respect is beautiful to me.

 

So, in that sense, I can see where the theoretical arguement of D.O. is good in terms of someone who mistakenly believes that a bliss state is "the final destination". However, I have yet to be convinced that an intellectual understanding of D.O. is a sign whether someone is enlightened. I'm also not convinced that there weren't fully enlightened individuals in shamanic tribal cultures who had a complete system of spiritual practice and had no need to wait for Buddha and Tibetan lamaism to show up and "save" everyone.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Enishi

[Ya Mu]

When investigating the nature of the self the truth must be that it is either independent or it is reliant on causes on conditions ie it is dependently originated, surely only one of these can be the ultimate truth of the self, beliefs aren't important. I have not personally realised any of this but I don't see how you can realise that the sense of a separate self is an illusion without also seeing that it is dependently originated, unless I am missing something they seem to go hand in hand.

OK

"...but I don't see how you can realise that the sense of a separate self is an illusion..."

It seems to me we are still referring to a belief.

 

Edit: But I didn't post to argue about the belief. I asked for some practicality in the belief, How it has helped humanity etc.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Ya Mu

[Marblehead]

That is what I would like to read, actual experiences of health, happiness, spiritual calmness, help to humanity, etc from those experienced in this belief.

 

I cannot let this one go.

 

My inner peace and contentment was and still is independantly originated. I created my reality that allowed it to happen.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Theoretically perhaps, but I don't note it actually occurring in the real world.

No it really happens

[Lucky7Strikes]

Well, of course I don't "get" dependent origination. Otherwise I would have given the same over and over theoretical argument that has been used here that of course is dependent on the belief that this is so. Which is why I asked for practical examples.

AND, the channels opening have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the belief in dependent origination as they open quite well with other practices that have nothing to do with this belief.

They do open well with other practices, but understanding of dependent origination cuts the habit of blockages at the root.

 

Open all your channels...then what? Open more channels? Now you need to keep them open by practicing?

 

What happens when you open all the channels you can? Do they close back up? Even if your body dissipates into thin air, where will you be then? So now you have to keep opening channels, eat healthy food, exercise, do chi gong...so now you've been bound by conditions and when those conditions are gone and your channels close, what will you do then?

Edited February 6, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Sunya]

I cannot let this one go.

 

My inner peace and contentment was and still is independantly originated. I created my reality that allowed it to happen.

 

Is that so? So if you existed in a white room with no doors/windows and no food or water or anything, you'd still have inner peace and contentment? I doubt that. Even if you did, there would be the question of if you are the same person from moment to moment, which you're not.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I guess that is the attitude of heartfelt compassion!

Why, did you expect a hug? What are you so afraid of? All your posts have this underlying fear to it, it's like you desperately need respect, need affirmation, need something to ground you because you are afraid of releasing something within you. It's just a sense that I get and I may be wrong. I do wish you well and hope you keep up with Kunlun.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Marblehead]

Is that so? So if you existed in a white room with no doors/windows and no food or water or anything, you'd still have inner peace and contentment? I doubt that. Even if you did, there would be the question of if you are the same person from moment to moment, which you're not.

 

Your question does not fit my statement.

 

I own my house. I worked hard to pay off the loan. Only I did this. Independantly. I worked hard to earn a retirement income so that I could have food and drink. Only I did this. Independantly.

 

But yes, I am a different person from moment to moment. But it is "I" who makes "my" adjustments to the external so that I might maintain my inner peace and contentment.

 

I am in no way dependant on Ya Mu or Santa Claus in order to have inner peace and contentment.

 

And whether there is a Prime Mover or not has absolutely nothing to do with my inner peace and contentment.

 

Cause and effect rule!

[Lucky7Strikes]

And whether there is a Prime Mover or not has absolutely nothing to do with my inner peace and contentment.

:wub:

 

I like that statement very much, thanks Marblehead.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Marblehead]

:wub:

 

I like that statement very much, thanks Marblehead.

 

And I thank you Lucky!

[Sunya]

Your question does not fit my statement.

 

I own my house. I worked hard to pay off the loan. Only I did this. Independantly. I worked hard to earn a retirement income so that I could have food and drink. Only I did this. Independantly.

 

But yes, I am a different person from moment to moment. But it is "I" who makes "my" adjustments to the external so that I might maintain my inner peace and contentment.

 

I am in no way dependant on Ya Mu or Santa Claus in order to have inner peace and contentment.

 

And whether there is a Prime Mover or not has absolutely nothing to do with my inner peace and contentment.

 

Cause and effect rule!

 

What I was saying was that without the proper conditions from the world, you would not have that contentment. You're not dependent on Santa Clause, but you are dependent on the environment, food, water, other people for inner peace.

[Marblehead]

What I was saying was that without the proper conditions from the world, you would not have that contentment. You're not dependent on Santa Clause, but you are dependent on the environment, food, water, other people for inner peace.

 

Okay. The way you phrased that is much more appealing to me. Thanks for taking the time.

 

Yes, if I were born in, say, India or Africa of begger class then there would be no way I would have been able to accomplish what I have during my lifetime.

 

And very true, I am very dependant on nature for providing those things that support my life. And it is true that I was very dependant on other people during my lifetime, especially my mother.

 

No, I am not going to suggest that I am an island. That would be stupid. I produce no food or clothing for myself. I have to rely on others to offer that to me for a price. If the price is right I have the resources needed to obtain those items.

 

However, even if I were born in Africa or India into the begger class there would still be the potential for me to attain inner peace and contentment. Sure, maybe I would be uncomfortable and hungry most of the time but that wouldn't be an absolute blockage against attaining inner peace and contentment.

 

I really don't have a problem with the concept of dependant origination. It is just that when I hear people talking about you can't attain this or that if you don't understand the concept and accept it as an absolute truth then you will never be happy and you will have to be reincarnated over and over again. This to me is hog-wash. It is so much like the Southern Baptists who used to come around my place and tell me that I am going to hell if I don't accept Jesus as my saviour. Hey! I don't even accept the thought that there is a place called hell except for the one some people have within their own essence.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Marblehead

[Ya Mu]

They do open well with other practices, but understanding of dependent origination cuts the habit of blockages at the root.

 

Open all your channels...then what? Open more channels? Now you need to keep them open by practicing?

 

What happens when you open all the channels you can? Do they close back up? Even if your body dissipates into thin air, where will you be then? So now you have to keep opening channels, eat healthy food, exercise, do chi gong...so now you've been bound by conditions and when those conditions are gone and your channels close, what will you do then?

It is obvious that you don't understand dependent origination. What we said was that it opens the channels.

Wait...What? Are you saying that the belief in dependent origination dispels any of this from actual happening? Believers in dependent origination don't have to eat food? What do they do then?

 

And once again, I am not arguing against it. For as a belief system it is just as valid as any other, I guess. What I asked for was practical examples of how it has helped humanity, etc.

 

Christian: "But you just don't understand Jesus. Believe in him."

Buddhist: "But you just don't understand dependent origination. Believe in it."

What is the difference? I know in the first case it has done nothing for humanity other than cause wars and strife and control by governments and heads of churches. Not the fact or fiction of Jesus but this belief thing. Pure fanaticism.

 

So one more time, what I asked for was practical examples of how it (belief in DO) has helped humanity, etc

 

My original statement: That is what I would like to read, actual experiences of health, happiness, spiritual calmness, help to humanity, etc from those experienced in this belief.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Ya Mu

[Ya Mu]

I cannot let this one go.

 

My inner peace and contentment was and still is independantly originated. I created my reality that allowed it to happen.

 

Your question does not fit my statement.

 

I own my house. I worked hard to pay off the loan. Only I did this. Independantly. I worked hard to earn a retirement income so that I could have food and drink. Only I did this. Independantly.

 

But yes, I am a different person from moment to moment. But it is "I" who makes "my" adjustments to the external so that I might maintain my inner peace and contentment.

 

I am in no way dependant on Ya Mu or Santa Claus in order to have inner peace and contentment.

 

And whether there is a Prime Mover or not has absolutely nothing to do with my inner peace and contentment.

 

Cause and effect rule!

And Ya Mu is glad that you are not one of his dependents. But Santa? How could you not believe in Santa. You see, he lives at the North Pole... ah you just don't understand Santa-ism.

And what you say is how I feel, so I was asking the believers what exactly were the benefits to humanity of the belief system of dependent origination.

[Marblehead]

And Ya Mu is glad that you are not one of his dependents. But Santa? How could you not believe in Santa. You see, he lives at the North Pole... ah you just don't understand Santa-ism.

And what you say is how I feel, so I was asking the believers what exactly were the benefits to humanity of the belief system of dependent origination.

 

Hehehe. I was wondering if you were going to catch that. (Well, I did believe in Santa for the first few years of my life. But when I saw Mama kissing Santa Claus I knew something just wasn't right.) And BTW, I do believe in you.

 

Yes, I understand the answers you are seeking and your question is a very fair one, I think. Goes back to my "useful/useless" concept. For some D. O. is useful, for others it is useless.

 

I don't know if you will get an acceptable answer to your question though. Like you said, beliefs are just that, beliefs.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Marblehead

[XieJia]

Buddhism in its pure form doesnt have any beliefs;

all principles can be verified by one's through ones' own practice.

 

however it is not a thing that can be given or transmit which renders this thread or such debate quite rather inefficient much the same ways in how one could explain what an ice cream is to one whoms never have even seen it or eaten it. Any rationalization about it will be just words or just cold dull dumplings.

 

arriving at the true ice cream is indeed attainable; but those that arrived to that point would say that it is no mundane task.

it would be more refreshing to see those that have eaten the ice cream, to value the ice cream and be more reserved about sharing their treasures other than advertising it.

it is just an ice cream after all

and if you are still on that path one day, you will even have to let that go aswell.

 

and as the value to humanity? there can be none whatsoever. it is only useful to some people.

 

to fellow buddhist;

please dont be an axe that can make myriad things for other things

for it can chop anything but its own shaft

[ralis]

Why, did you expect a hug? What are you so afraid of? All your posts have this underlying fear to it, it's like you desperately need respect, need affirmation, need something to ground you because you are afraid of releasing something within you. It's just a sense that I get and I may be wrong. I do wish you well and hope you keep up with Kunlun.

 

Actually you are wrong. I am not interested in your approval or from anyone for that matter. Your attempts to somehow read and evaluate me are so far off, it is laughable.

[Marblehead]

Buddhism in its pure form doesnt have any beliefs;

all principles can be verified by one's through ones' own practice.

 

 

Hi XieJia,

 

Nice post. Thanks for sharing.

 

Yes, I have eaten the ice cream. And it is true what you say. I could never explain the 'ice cream' experience to someone who had never seen or eaten ice cream.

 

And so, I will suggest that there are many ways to get access to ice cream. And one can experience the totality of the experience without ever having been told about ice cream.

 

And what you say is true IMO, it is only useful to some people. Some people won't like icecream and some people's digestive system won't handle ice cream and they will get sick.

[C T]

@ Mr Ya Mu....

 

D. O. is not a belief system. It is that which underlies and underpins every aspect of existence, and non-existence, for that matter. For want of a metaphor, it is like the ocean, and everything (the waves) else that breathes, moves, does chi gung, have orgasms, have kids, not have kids, be kind and compassionate (or not - one's choice, based on what one has integrated in life, whereby this integration would largely be moulded dependent on many, many causes and conditions), which, at the fundamental level, is what D. O. is all about, which then, hopefully, also helps one understand how to take proper responsibility for working out one's own freedom, but, BUT, while working out one's own freedom (from whatever one thinks one needs to be free from - although when perfectly understood, D. O. will shine the words, "Freedom has always been yours" right inside your heart), one will see clearly that this exercise of trying to free oneself is indeed dependent on many factors that has to come and go in order for one to make one's quest (in your case, attunement with higher energetic sources?) possible, otherwise, the quest, which cannot be an independent thing, becomes rather meaningless. What we do in life gets meaning only to the extent we are able to give what we have, the fruits of our quest, to lighten others who are also on the same journey, after all, of what good are spiritual aspirations if its only to save oneself?

 

In many ways, insight into D. O. helps one to see that others are just as pertinent when one aims to realize one's aspirations, howsoever big or small these may be. The more one can accommodate and assist others, the greater the rewards for every one involved - this is also another principle of D. O. btw.

 

 

I am assuming that your primary role in life now is to help others attune and attain that which you have realized? This is very noble; when you look deeper into this noble motive, you will see D. O. at work, whether you are conscious of its principle or not, it does not matter - D. O. does not need anybody's approval, verification, belief, or study, to work - it is not like Chi Gung, or Nei Gung, or a form of anything - it is formless, yet all forms are dependent on it. It also transcends all cultural trappings, yet at the same time, cultures also build around it, or sometimes, disintegrates because of it - at the microcosmic level, this applies to us as single humans as well.

 

Naturally, it would be more helpful if you did understand D.O. ... and this is where a lot of the Buddhist practices (not beliefs) can be quite enlivening.

 

 

 

Much respect.

Edited February 6, 2011 by CowTao

[ralis]

From what I have observed, the philosophy of D.O. has become simplistic, which leads to complacency and laziness. Believers that stop at this point are short changing themselves and others.

 

Exactly, what do the proponents here of D.O. going to do with it? Anything concrete and constructive?

Edited February 6, 2011 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

It seems to me that we're almost talking about apples and oranges.

 

My guess is that the meditative journey that takes one to separate realities, such as the scenario Veejay refers to, is more a phenomenon of seeking. That dynamic is from the inside to the outside. Yes, there are separate realities; they can also be accessed through shamanic techniques. I'm not sure Buddha had the only handle on it, I think the indigenous were well aware of the separate realities as well.

 

The other journey is the journey from the outside to the inside. This is where the Personality gets edited, and this is the path that ends up at the One. It's the journey of self-awareness, the series of internal gulps of 'Aha!' that ties together that which we have learned on the outside with what we are on the inside. If done over a long period of time and with great impeccability, it brings us to the source; hence the term 'sorcery'?. It's entirely different than the inside to the outside; rather, this is the clearing process that brings us to the One (or, if the Buddhists prefer, the space between the matter).

 

It seems to me that the Middle Way is the perfect blend of the two. The Middle Way brings us into balance so we don't get too far out in either direction.

 

I'm not talking about the phenomena of seeking when it comes to ending up at different places, I'm talking about levels of realization about the nature of things. The place of the one is a formless bliss state, or realm, considered the ultimate reality... the Buddha also referred to it as a high level of Samsara.

 

There are 4 formless states of realization with associated Gods or Devas... All of them are Samsaric.

 

Attaching all things to a singular origin, or primal cause that is the "one" behind the many is exactly what I've been talking about that is a Samsaric notion and not conducive to complete Buddhahood, but merely the perfection of the 4 immeasurables... but not liberation, only re-absorption.

 

Dependent Origination sees infinite regress, not a primal ground of being that truly exists.

 

The Buddhist goal is not to come back to a "one." But rather to cut through all things and empty ones personal and beginningless reservoir of samsaric grasping into endless nirvanic expressions for the sake of endless sentient beings.

 

There's no merging into a "one" for Buddhas, even though we do see through all things and experience inter-dependence directly... we see it as empty of any inherent existence, both conceptually and non-conceptually.

 

This is not mere intellectual gymnastics.

[Vajrahridaya]

Interesting post.

While I am going to mostly stay away from this thread, I did read over it, attempting to make practical sense of it all. Your post puts it back into real-time, as in exactly what does one achieve from this practice and belief system of dependent origination. That is what I would like to read, actual experiences of health, happiness, spiritual calmness, help to humanity, etc from those experienced in this belief.

 

One realizes directly the inter-dependence of mind and body. Buddhism implements many, many yogic traditions of physical movements for the sake of bettering the body to create a platform for deeper mental awareness of all beings inter-dependence. Through this, one attains a natural compassion and wish to help all beings. This has been done by countless Buddhists since the time of the Buddha.

 

When one realizes emptiness directly, the natural sense of freedom occurs internally, and through this state of happiness, one can serve with more vigor and power.

 

If one is not connected to Buddhism, one will not even notice that this is happening in so many ways, around the world.

 

If you are like ben who disparages Buddhism, due to the fact of dependent origination of thought patterns with experience and phenomena, his view will cloud his reception of this positive information to the point of being completely blind to it.

 

The wisdom and value of the insight of dependent origination is endless.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Vajrahridaya]

Most Buddhists I know are lost when it comes to functioning in the world. Health difficulties and complacent attitudes are not uncommon. I don't see any interest or motivation to improve people's live in a practical way. I am referring to problems in the environment, lack of food in certain areas, fresh water, energy etc. This stems from the "everything is ok " attitude.

 

Obviously your view has clouded your experience.

 

All the Buddhist friends that I know of are engaged not only in inner alchemy towards the positive outcome of enlightened vision but external charity of small to large proportions, including ChNNR and Namdrol.

 

I have sincere compassion for your difficult predicament of poor vision disabling your experience of things associated with Buddhism.

[Vajrahridaya]

The natural state is a compassionate state. It is natural in that there is no effort to be compassionate. You are just a nice person. Only people can improve their own lives, spiritual practitioners often fall into egoic traps of being "guides" or "helpers."

 

Excellent insight!