Dependent Origination

[Vajrahridaya]

 

And if you would like to understand non-DO view, I could suggest to you some Taoist books, but probably the same waste of time as you suggesting a Buddhist book, for neither of us would understand from the book, would we?! As you say, the only way to understand would be to practice it.

 

I've studied Taoism, have read many of it's core scriptures, I've practiced the I-Ching divination method for over 20 years. I've got confidence in TCMedicine due to having an ulcer healed in 2 months through a tea prescribed by a TCM doctor. I've had acupuncture done on me since I was in middle school with amazing results. I've read from many Taoist Wizards both past and present and have gained much understanding from the books as you would from reading Buddhist books. You could just read the link I linked you too above. You could even explore that whole website, if you were truly interested.

 

Yes, understanding D.O. has done so, so much for humanity... Buddhism will continue to do so much for humanity and intelligent life in other solar systems regardless of this debate.

 

See post #72 on page 5. There's just a little blurb from me there concerning your concerns.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

I've studied Taoism, have read many of it's core scriptures, I practice the I-Ching divination method. I've read from many Taoist Wizards both past and present and have gained much understanding from the books as you would from reading Buddhist books. You could just read the link I linked you too above. You could even explore that whole website, if you were truly interested.

 

Yes, understanding D.O. has done so, so much for humanity... Buddhism will continue to do so much for humanity and intelligent life in other solar systems regardless of this debate.

 

See post #72 on page 5. There's just a little blurb from me there concerning your concerns.

 

There were several requests made for concrete evidence that makes D.O special. So far no substantive evidence has been given. Now D.O. is saving other worlds in your view. Exactly which ones? Mars?

[goldisheavy]

ralis, you have been the king of judgement towards me, bashing me for years, insulting my writing style, insulting my personal life, insult after insult. There is hardly even a nice post from you as the vast majority of your posts are insults towards me.

 

You need a good and clean mirror to look into.

 

He's not insulting you. Not everything negative is an insult. He's criticizing you. You can argue that his criticisms are unfair, but you can't say that insulting is what he's doing.

 

Just how I see it from here.

 

And yea, I do think that ralis is somehow focused on criticizing you above all else. When other people demonstrate poor writing style or say idiotic things ralis doesn't necessarily respond. But when you do it, he'll be sure to respond. It's almost like he's adopted you as his child.

 

No big deal either way. It's almost like he's your fan.

Edited February 7, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

There were several requests made for concrete evidence that makes D.O special. So far no substantive evidence has been given. Now D.O. is saving other worlds in your view. Exactly which ones? Mars?

 

 

Ah... so dense... is that brick in the wall.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

No big deal either way. It's almost like he's your fan.

:lol:

 

More like the cyber space manifestation of one or more of my psychological maras!

[Vajrahridaya]

I never said "I" was independently originated.

 

 

 

My point was that if the experiencer, as in you are not independently originated, then neither are your experiences independently originated.

 

There is no such thing as independent, or uncaused origination. All experiences and choices, beings and phenomena can be broken down into an endless chain of inter-causation.

[Ya Mu]

To Ya Mu,

 

One possible answer to this question deals with rebirth after this life. As you may of heard on this thread, certain beliefs will lead to rebirth in a formless heaven. Sounds great right? Think, even though you'll be hanging out in those blissful states for eons eventually your good karma will run out. Where you go afterwards depends on your karma. You can fall into a lower existences as an animal, hungry ghost, or suffering in one of the myriad of hells.

 

Basically when you achieve the Dharmakaya in this lifetime (or in the bardo state) YOU control where you reincarnate to benefit as many beings as possible. In other words karma doesn't dictate where you reincarnate, YOU do.

 

Buddhism talks of how hard it is to acquire a human form (they usually compare it to a turtle who just happens to pop its head through a hole in a peice of driftwood in the ocean.) We are lucky that we have a chance in this lifetime to cultivate in fully functional, complete bodies.

 

Seriously, think how many animals, fish, and bacteria compared to us humans there are in this world. Even if you do have the karma and merit to be born as a person; think about the certainty of not being aborted, dying at birth or early on in life, not being born with mental retardation or some neurological disease, being born with all your limbs with full functionality. Look around you, how many people have a clue as to the importance of this life? Or even having the merit to run into the right cultivation teachings?

 

Shit, think about being born as a factory farm animal, cooped up you're whole measly existence, only to be slaughtered in the end. Suffocating, dying as a fish on the deck of a fishing vessel. You've reached a certain stage in your cultivation, have you seen the hungry ghosts with their deformed bodies?

 

Like I said those of us who have a fully functioning brain and body can thank ourselves for past karma and merit. For being born in a country that doesn't have rampant poverty or not being persecuted for our beliefs or lifestyle. That's all I'm getting into now, so I'm out.

So also, does practical taoism lead to the energetic state of being able to choose. With no belief in DO.

But what I asked was for practical benefits, etc.

[Ya Mu]

I've studied Taoism, have read many of it's core scriptures, I've practiced the I-Ching divination method for over 20 years. ...

 

Yes, understanding D.O. has done so, so much for humanity... Buddhism will continue to do so much for humanity and intelligent life in other solar systems regardless of this debate.

 

See post #72 on page 5. There's just a little blurb from me there concerning your concerns.

But have you actually PRACTICED - not read. That is what you yourself told me was the only way to understand, and I agree with you.

 

Thanks you for pointing me to post #72 which I had indeed missed. So there are some physical practices, per your post. Good. But there is not, to the best of my knowledge, an attached healing system for others with this practice. Wouldn't there need to be for this to help others? Never mind, I do believe I know the answer to this.

[ralis]

So also, does practical taoism lead to the energetic state of being able to choose. With no belief in DO.

But what I asked was for practical benefits, etc.

 

He has no substantive evidence to present. The only ones that benefit are the Lama's that sit on their golden thrones and are taken care of by their devotees.

[Vajrahridaya]

So also, does practical taoism lead to the energetic state of being able to choose. With no belief in DO.

But what I asked was for practical benefits, etc.

 

Actually there are examples of DO being explored in Taoism throughout various applications of the ying and yang philosophy of polarities in how this manifests as the cosmos. There are various Taoists who do have an understanding of DO who do not substantialize the Tao as some mysterious and unknowable uncaused cause or primal point of origination at the beginning of the universe but rather see the Tao as merely the nature of movement on all levels. If you understand malleability, relativity, impermanence, inter-dependence on an ongoing experiential level, then you have a good understanding of emptiness and dependent origination as it's presented in Buddhism. If you have come to the mis-conclusion that there is an independent and uncaused supreme cause to the cosmos, then you have not and you've created a rooftop to your exploration of nature and thus limited your own possibility for insight.

 

I once again, point to my post #72 for a very brief explanation of practical benefits that have far reaching and much more complex ramifications if understood.

 

Just think about all the benefits we as a people would have on a practical level if the philosophy of inter-dependence (dependent origination) was a universally human experience at this time. We as a people, corporations and governments would not do so many things; including cause wars, rape people, destroy the environment... etc. etc. etc. We would even have a more sensible monetary system in place that didn't give all the power to international bankers.

 

The practical applications of experiential understanding of dependent origination is endless. It's almost dumbfounding to me that it's not obvious??

[Birch]

Buddhist aim is to go for the root tension or corner stone which holds the foundations of all the tensions and blockages in the channels together which is the belief in a separate self, deal with that and the whole structure of blockages which are preventing you from seeing clearly comes crashing down. Even temporary realisations of this are supposedly life changing and deeply healing.

 

"comes crashing down."

Check

 

"Even temporary realisations of this are supposedly life changing"

Check

 

"and deeply healing."

Meh, not so sure. IMO/IME you still have to rid your organism of all of the accumulated "stuff" - and frankly, it's not a whole lot of fun. I've stepped over the edge once or twice and my conclusion is I'd rather stay in the world, knowing I'm "unenlightened" but enjoying myself and maybe helping others with stuff. I also see Buddhism - alright, perhaps just "institutionalized Buddhism" - like many of the other monotheisms as a threat to the diversity of belief on the planet. Really, I'm sure "Buddha" wouldn't have a problem with them.

 

My 2cts opinion. My unenlightened opinion.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

The practical applications of experiential understanding of dependent origination is endless. It's almost dumbfounding to me that it's not obvious??

 

Veejay, one of the problems I think you have in getting your ideas across is that you think that much of what you write about is obvious, when it's not.

[The Observer]

Meh, not so sure. IMO/IME you still have to rid your organism of all of the accumulated "stuff" - and frankly, it's not a whole lot of fun. I've stepped over the edge once or twice and my conclusion is I'd rather stay in the world, knowing I'm "unenlightened" but enjoying myself and maybe helping others with stuff.

 

Very true...the spiritual path/path of enlightenment isn't an easy path to follow by any means.

[Vajrahridaya]

But have you actually PRACTICED - not read. That is what you yourself told me was the only way to understand, and I agree with you.

 

Yes, I've practiced for years. Please do you, don't try to do me. We are here to read posts.

 

Thanks you for pointing me to post #72 which I had indeed missed. So there are some physical practices, per your post. Good. But there is not, to the best of my knowledge, an attached healing system for others with this practice. Wouldn't there need to be for this to help others? Never mind, I do believe I know the answer to this.

 

Do you?

 

There are so many attached healing methods within Vajrayana, including healing the mind through philosophy. Healing through dream, kunye massage, and there are many medical systems associated with Buddhism varying slightly between cultures of it's appearance. There are energy healing systems like tonglen and reiki (which is originally a Buddhist system by the way which doctor Usui attributed to the Buddha) which has recorded instances of healing. There are many forms of healing associated with the medicine Buddha. It's really endless the amount of information available out there concerning healing techniques and documented cases of healing through various Buddhist healing methods.

 

I think you do need to read some good autobiographies from famous Tantric Buddhist yogis in order to get a better idea.

 

I think maybe a lot of you, due to the fact that your only exposure to Buddhism is through much of the philosophical points argued here, that you think this is all Buddhism is about?

Edited February 7, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

I think maybe a lot of you, due to the fact that your only exposure to Buddhism is through much of the philosophical points argued here, that you think this is all Buddhism is about?

 

If that's true, (and I'm not sure it is), we can attribute much of that to yourself. This is your pulpit for preaching the dharma, is it not? Your 'charitable contribution' you mentioned earlier in this thread?

[Vajrahridaya]

"and deeply healing."

Meh, not so sure. IMO/IME you still have to rid your organism of all of the accumulated "stuff"

 

Going deeper into dependent origination empties your organism of all the accumulated stuff, that's the actual point of the entire philosophy and practice. Thus the idea of "emptiness" and "dependent origination" which reveals how inter-connected all your "stuff" is both inside and out and how to realize that it's "empty" of any inherent and static substance so that your "stuff" can be self liberated upon awareness of it's dynamic instantaneously. All this just upon direct realization of dependent origination/emptiness.

 

Either that or you could say to transform your stuff into reference points for insight and healing others by realizing it's malleability and non-static nature.

 

I think my point made in my previous post is that most of you are here to argue from the space of ignorance instead of taking the time to actually learn and read the links and information provided? Many here are not really concerned with learning it seems and are just holding onto your "stuff" because you think it's who "you" are and you think its "fun" and your not really ready for enlightenment or the path and dedication it takes. This only applies to those of you that it's true for.

 

But, thank goodness you're at least present and trying to the degree of your currently realized potential??

 

I've personally learned a whole lot of positive things about many forms of Taoism by being here. Even though I'd already committed myself to studying it for a number of years in the past.

[Vajrahridaya]

Veejay, one of the problems I think you have in getting your ideas across is that you think that much of what you write about is obvious, when it's not.

 

Hmmm... ok, thanks for that.

[Vajrahridaya]

If that's true, (and I'm not sure it is), we can attribute much of that to yourself. This is your pulpit for preaching the dharma, is it not? Your 'charitable contribution' you mentioned earlier in this thread?

 

Did you read the link I provided you about the 84 mahasiddhas?

[Ya Mu]

Actually there are examples of DO being explored in Taoism throughout various applications of the ying and yang philosophy of polarities in how this manifests as the cosmos. There are various Taoists who do have an understanding of DO ...

 

...

 

Just think about all the benefits we as a people would have on a practical level if the philosophy of inter-dependence (dependent origination) was a universally human experience at this time. We as a people, corporations and governments would not do so many things; including cause wars, rape people, destroy the environment... etc. etc. etc. We would even have a more sensible monetary system in place that didn't give all the power to international bankers.

 

The practical applications of experiential understanding of dependent origination is endless. It's almost dumbfounding to me that it's not obvious??

Substitute the words " Practical Taoism" in your second paragraph and the same in your 3rd paragraph, and it would say pretty much the same thing I would say.

 

AS far as your first paragraph, the part that I just posted, I agree. A part of my teachings came from the Golden Summit Monastery which combined more than 3,600 schools of thought, including Buddhist thought.

[Lucky7Strikes]

.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Did you read the link I provided you about the 84 mahasiddhas?

 

Endless reading assignments shouldn't be necessary unless one wanted a deeper understanding from clear explanations.

 

However, I have learned quite a bit from this thread, from a number of people actually, and don't buy the Buddhist hard line, and telling me it must be experienced doesn't work either.

Edited February 7, 2011 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

Substitute the words " Practical Taoism" in your second paragraph and the same in your 3rd paragraph, and it would say pretty much the same thing I would say.

 

AS far as your first paragraph, the part that I just posted, I agree. A part of my teachings came from the Golden Summit Monastery which combined more than 3,600 schools of thought, including Buddhist thought.

 

I've been saying for quite some time that Taoism is the most compatible system with Buddhism that I've come across and I've studied all of the major ones, including some little known shamanistic ones.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I've been saying for quite some time that Taoism is the most compatible system with Buddhism that I've come across and I've studied all of the major ones, including some little known shamanistic ones.

 

 

But ultimately is not compatible unless one takes on D.O., so in a sense they are far apart unless Taoism is bastardized by becoming 'pseudo-buddhist'.

[Vajrahridaya]

Endless reading assignments shouldn't be necessary unless one wanted a deeper understanding from clear explanations.

 

However, I have learned quite a bit from this thread, from a number of people actually, and don't buy the Buddhist hard line, and telling me it must be experienced doesn't work either.

 

Then you are the perfect example of my comment above and I knew from the very beginning of your intention.

 

You are not even close to interested in learning... your question was just a fishing ploy. You never really read a single post made here by the Buddhists with honest openness, you haven't learned more than that which solidified your current understanding.

 

Typical sarcastic Songs...

 

So sad.

 

Don't worry... I won't suffer you. I send you blissful compassion though... maybe you'll come around someday.

 

Take care.

[Vajrahridaya]

But ultimately is not compatible unless one takes on D.O., so in a sense they are far apart unless Taoism is bastardized by becoming 'pseudo-buddhist'.

 

Like I said in a previous post here SONGS...

 

There are plenty of examples in Taoism for Dependent Origination that do not make the Tao some sort of independent originator of the cosmos, some sort of uncaused platform or supreme source of all things in and of itself.

 

I've seen some people who claim to be Taoist who see the Tao as merely "the way of movement" on all levels. So...