Dependent Origination

[Vajrahridaya]

 

What I question is the sudden availability of thousands of texts. When Tibet fell, only a few texts survived the passage to India. The rest were lost when the Chinese destroyed most monasteries.

 

Actually thousands of texts survived and you'd know that if you read any autobiographies by Tibetan Masters.

 

Why not read, "Blazing Splendor"? Just to start... that might help.

[Vajrahridaya]

Even I, who doesn't memorize any text verbatim, I can tell you in a way that's going to be helpful the real meaning and intent of those texts that I've read in the past, since I carry the meaning in my heart and don't really need the text itself.

 

Very true.

 

As far as keeping certain practices secret until a person is ready, I think its very important.

[Vajrahridaya]

You claim you sit in meditation 4-6 hours a day but it really means you're taking credit for "practice" in your sleep???

 

I used to do sitting practice for 4 to 6 hours, sitting, not in my sleep. Now I do practice in my sleep if I wake up in my sleep. It's called lucid dreaming and it's a real Dzogchen practice.

 

I do internal mantra meditation all or most of the day, every day these days working with various mantras and visualizations, even while working on my pedicab.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Very true.

 

As far as keeping certain practices secret until a person is ready, I think its very important.

 

No teacher has a right to determine when someone is ready. That should be independently determined by the student.

[Vajrahridaya]

No teacher has a right to determine when someone is ready. That should be independently determined by the student.

 

If the teacher is a master of the teaching or method that is to be taught, then yes they do.

 

How is it compassionate to teach someone something that will damage them because they aren't ready for it, or will abuse the method and energy of it's lineage?

Edited February 7, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

As far as keeping certain practices secret until a person is ready, I think its very important.

 

It's not up to anyone to decide who is and isn't ready. If you try to decide for others when the others are ready, that's unwarranted, ugly, destructive elitism. I stand against it 100%. **** you and anyone else who supports such elitism. **** all the Tibetan masters combined 1000 times over if that's how they think.

 

Your job is to present the material. Let the recipient determine for oneself if oneself is ready or not. There should be no secrets at all except when your life is threatened for disseminating certain materials. So there is exactly one exception that allows for secrecy. That is all.

Edited February 7, 2011 by cat
language!

[Vajrahridaya]

It's not up to anyone to decide who is and isn't ready. If you try to decide for others when the others are ready, that's unwarranted, ugly, destructive elitism. I stand against it 100%. **** you and anyone else who supports such elitism. **** all the Tibetan masters combined 1000 times over if that's how they think.

 

Your job is to present the material. Let the recipient determine for oneself if oneself is ready or not. There should be no secrets at all except when your life is threatened for disseminating certain materials. So there is exactly one exception that allows for secrecy. That is all.

 

I would expect such a response from a mere intellectual without direct insight into spiritual truths and subtle energetic dimensions? Hmmmm...

 

Oh well. **** me then.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Mal
also language! (+Mal changing upstream quotes)

[Gerard]

No teacher has a right to determine when someone is ready. That should be independently determined by the student.

 

I need to answer to this to avoid corruption of the original teachings of any tradition if it happens that a beginner reads this message. However I doubt anyone would take seriously a user using that sort of avatar. Honestly if you ever go to Asia to study one of the great spiritual traditions: Sufism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Daoism, your ego would be stripped off very quickly. Why wasting so much energy being so negative instead of canalising it towards your inner being. Work on your karma, ralis instead of seeing negativity outside your deluded conception of reality.

 

Remember that you perceive in others is simply an unconscious projection of yourself.

 

goldisheavy and Vajrahdiraya, let's take a break for swearing especially the former for swearing at the Buddha. You have no place in this forum. Please leave. Thanks.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

goldisheavy and Vajrahdiraya, let's take a break for swearing especially the former for swearing at the Buddha. You have no place in this forum. Please leave. Thanks.

 

Sorry, was just trying to show that if GIH feels this way about authorities of spiritual realities that he has no experience in, then he might as well just bunch me in with them if he doesn't respect my opinion that they have a say higher than mine or his.

 

There is a hierarchy in the sense that there are those that know better, even for us. Just as a toddler should heed the more experienced word of his/her mother.

[Jetsun]

I'm not sure where all this dependent origination as a belief system comes from, if people are using it for that they are missing the entire point which is that either the sense of a separate self is independent or it is dependently originated, the truth is either one of these two positions and we are encouraged to find out for ourselves.

 

The only practical evidence I have that it is an important investigation to look into is that the only people I have found who I get the impression they really get what life is about are a few Buddhist masters I met, in that they seem to retain their completely open hearted childhood outlook on life despite facing extreme sufferings, they are the only people I have ever met who I instantly felt were my best mates. The importance of this is that they are like lamps in the darkness showing that another way in life is possible and they consider the investigation into dependent origination important.

 

I'm sure other traditions talk about the same thing they just use different terminology or frame it within their tradition

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm not sure where all this dependent origination as a belief system comes from, if people are using it for that they are missing the entire point which is that either the sense of a separate self is independent or it is dependently originated, the truth is either one of these two positions and we are encouraged to find out for ourselves.

 

The only practical evidence I have that it is an important investigation to look into is that the only people I have found who I get the impression they really get what life is about are a few Buddhist masters I met, in that they seem to retain their completely open hearted childhood outlook on life despite facing extreme sufferings, they are the only people I have ever met who I instantly felt were my best mates. The importance of this is that they are like lamps in the darkness showing that another way in life is possible and they consider the investigation into dependent origination important.

 

[XieJia]

Why wasting so much energy being so negative instead of canalising it towards your inner being.

 

thumb up!

but actually the negatives may still be useful for if one can see them and use it to grab the ego by the neck.

with a sword in hand, the nature eliminates itself.

This is the only value I can see with any principles.

 

Undoing the ignorance.

 

now take a deep breath and look what we have written for this thread, what does it reflects?

 

@jetsun

Thank you

Edited February 7, 2011 by XieJia

[Vajrahridaya]

 

with a sword in hand, the nature eliminates itself.

 

manjushri

 

Undoing the ignorance.

 

now take a deep breath and look what we have written for this thread, what does it reflects?

 

dependent origination.... is empty of inherent existence.

[Marblehead]

you are welcomed Mr Marblehead; i agree with you totally.

But even the first chapter of the Dao De Jing or the Diamond Sutra to be recited times over times; i doubt there will be any different.

 

i whine too much already; my teacher should be slapping my head already and let out a load belly laugh.

peoples' path are different, would like to be wandering easy myself.

 

Yeah, when we are with a teacher we should try our best to follow the instructions of the teacher. Likewise, if we select our own path we should do the homework first then try our best to follow through on our plans.

 

And I agree that when we follow a teacher we expect miracles. Can't do that. It is not up to the teacher to make advances but rather it is up to us, how much we are willing to put into following the instructions.

 

No, sitting on our behind and reading books is only the planning stage. We have to get up off our butts and put what we learn into action. I can sit here all day and read the Army Field Manual on Physical Fitness but it doesn't help me whatever unless I get up and do some of the exercises.

[Marblehead]

To think that you completely know yourself through and through is really off the freakin' wall... It's obvious by your reactions that you have not. So you've completely delved into your entire potential as a human being and explored every region of your subconscious and unconscious illuminating every crevice of your inner being?

 

You seem to have a really big flaw I think you should work on. And that is your judging of other people based on your own very limited experiences.

 

Just because you know what somebody else said about people doesn't mean you have any valuable knowledge because, afterall, what you have learned may well be nothing but illusion and delusion.

 

Yes, I know myself. Very well, in fact. I rarely dream but if I do I know exactly what experiences were being expressed in those dreams. I know my intuition very well. I almost always follow my intuitional inspirations and when I don't I normally screw something up.

 

And yes, I know how the subconscious operations of my brain work. And I know how the conscious operations of my brain work. Don't think that just because you do not know these things about yourself that nobody else does either.

 

So you can go ahead and think that you do not know yourself but never put your understandings on other people. Others have had different experiences from what you have had. They do not and can not operate according to your very limited perceptions.

 

And just because I react for the purpose of correcting your total misunderstandings should show nothing but an interest by me to correct your illusions and delusions. If it didn't matter I would not have said anything.

 

And this is an opertunity for me to repeat that there is no correct way for everyone to get to where they want to be. Many people need a teacher, many people forge their own path. Those who feel they have to follow someone else's path are, for whatever the reason, unable to forge their own path. I make no value judgement on this. It is simply a matter of fact.

 

So please, let us not carry this concept of dependent origination to extremes. Everything that is created is dependent upon what has caused its creation. But that doesn't mean that this new creation is what it is and can never cause changes in itself. Defeatism!?!? No, not me. Never!!! If I don't like my world I will change whatever needs changing or if I cannot make the needed changes I will find a different environment.

 

We, none of us, are strictly held into any form of lifestyle. If we have a functioning brain we can make choices and act upon these choices and become what we feel we truely are. We need not declare ourself dependent on what Buddha or Lao Tzu said thousands of years ago.

 

End of lecture. Read Chapter 87 and 88 of the text and be prepared for an in-depth discussion our next meeting.

[Vajrahridaya]

illusion and delusion.

 

Yes, I know myself. Very well, in fact.

 

 

You don't. You only think you do.

[Vajrahridaya]

Read Chapter 87 and 88 of the text and be prepared for an in-depth discussion our next meeting.

 

of what?

[Marblehead]

My point was that if the experiencer, as in you are not independently originated, then neither are your experiences independently originated.

 

There is no such thing as independent, or uncaused origination. All experiences and choices, beings and phenomena can be broken down into an endless chain of inter-causation.

 

That, I think, is taking the concept of D.O. to such an extreme that it actually invalidates the concept.

 

I must say here that you are half right. But then, that suggests that you might be half wrong as well. I will not accept any suggestion from anyone that original thought is not possible. It is this that allow for the evolution of the human species.

 

We are not fixed into certain perameters. We can expand - we can explode! Just because we were born into a given condition does not mean that we must remain there. We can break down the walls and escape. Then the entire universe is ours to experience, not just the small world we were born into.

 

It has been many years since I have said or thought the phrase "I am defeated." There are so many way to get from point A to point B. If the shortest doesn't work select a different path. If you can find no established path that takes you where you want to be then create your own path. This is independent origination.

[Vajrahridaya]

I will not accept any suggestion from anyone that original thought is not possible. It is this that allow for the evolution of the human species.

 

Of course its possible but only out of inter-influence, not out of nothing or no type of influence.

 

 

If you can find no established path that takes you where you want to be then create your own path. This is independent origination.

 

No, because the idea of need to build your own path arises from context, not out of itself.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

 

But Vaj keeps responding to him and keeps fueling the fire... I said it before, you guys have weird karma, like you were married in a past life or something.

 

Hehehe. I like that!!!

[Marblehead]

LOL ... good to see things haven't changed much in my brief absence

 

Yeah! Where the heck you been?

 

Actually, this is the first emotionally loaded thread we have had for a while.

 

D.O., as it has and is presented here on this forum, will never be accepted by most of the Taoists here.

 

It's just too much of a nihilistic concept for Taoists to even understand let alone accept.

[Vajrahridaya]

It's just too much of a nihilistic concept for Taoists to even understand let alone accept.

 

I know exactly the dependency for this origination, and it's mis-understanding.

 

It's far from Nihilistic... there is always larger context... endlessly, neither nihilistic nor eternalistic... it's liberation while living or transforming (dying).

 

Your views of death as real is more nihilistic then the truth of dependent origination (existence).

[Marblehead]

You don't. You only think you do.

 

You have no freakin' idea. You are not some form of omniscient god! You don't even know if I am drinking tea or coffee at this very moment. Actually, you 'know' much less than you think you do.

 

Your illusions and delusions are distorting your truths.

[Marblehead]

of what?

 

Anything you want to read. They are only words. Words will never be a fair replacement for experience.

[Marblehead]

Of course its possible but only out of inter-influence, not out of nothing or no type of influence.

 

You should have stopped with the bolded phrase.

 

 

No, because the idea of need to build your own path arises from context, not out of itself.

 

That didn't make any sense.

 

If someone has actually done such then it really doesn't matter all that much where the inspiration came from.

 

But I will still suggest that this need arises internally, not based on the past. It is the past that the person is trying to become removed from.