Dependent Origination

[三江源]

.

Edited April 13, 2015 by 三江源

[Marblehead]

I know exactly the dependency for this origination, and it's mis-understanding.

 

It's far from Nihilistic... there is always larger context... endlessly, neither nihilistic nor eternalistic... it's liberation while living or transforming (dying).

 

Your views of death as real is more nihilistic then the truth of dependent origination (existence).

 

We have discussed this before and I suggest that on the surface, if D.O. is applied to all aspects of life without an extremely deep understanding of the concept, it does in fact appear to be very nihilistic. That is why, IMO, 'cause and effect' is a much more powerful concept than is D.O.

 

Ah! You missed out on the "Death" thread. Too bad. We can't divert this thread for the purpose of discussing that concept (actually, death is a fact, not a concept).

[三江源]

.

Edited April 13, 2015 by 三江源

[Marblehead]

This is just an interpretation of an idea, Marblehead. An experience of DO clarifies it isnt nihilistic. Actually the very concept of nihilism grows from duality.

 

 

I would consider myself to be a taoist, and I was born with a knowledge of DO and have never known any different.

 

It is resistance that prevents understanding and acceptance.. and that resistance is a force which is counter to dwelling in wu wei.

 

Hi Cat,

 

Nice input. Thanks.

 

A long time ago, when I first joined this site, I was finally able to get the Buddhists here to give a understandable explanation of D.O. I actually have no problem with the concept. The problem I have is the way it is oftentimes presented here.

 

Nihilism grows from apathy. Apathy grows from thinking that one has no control over what happens to them. This is what I argue against.

 

D.O. is the exact same thing as 'cause and effect'. The only problem is that the way D.O. is presented here suggests that one cannot create their own causes. This is very non-Taoist.

 

Taoist Philosophy suggests that there was no beginning nor will there ever be an end but rather there are reversions and cycles. This is consistent with D.O.

 

A good two-thirds of the TTC speaks to how man is living and how man can make changes so to make life more enjoyable. This is what I love (pardon my usage of that word) to talk about. We can make changes. We are not fixed into some form of karmic cycle. We can break the (delusional) cycle - we can make a difference! All we need is original thought, planning upon the thoughts, then taking the plans into reality.

[Marblehead]

As I see it, knowing ourselves is such an onion peeling task, and so many people never ever delve into their unconscious, or extend their boundaries , or loosen their attachment to personal identity... that what they choose to know as themselves is a tiny patch of garden, maybe even a window box.

 

 

When you finish peeling the onion, you find there is nothing at the centre of it.

 

Once again a very nice addition to the discussion.

 

And I agree with you. It wasn't until I was in my fifties that I started peeling away the layers. I found some really rotten stuff in there.

 

Yes, it is hard to admit the we are screwed up. Hehehe. We prefer the delusional life we are living so we just leave the onion alone.

 

Ah! What's inside - at the center? I found nothing. You know why? Because when we take something apart we no longer have the whole - we lost its inner essence. Yes, there is an inner essence but we fail to see it because we are looking for something tangible. Our inner essence is energy (Chi) and we fail to see it with our senses. It is here where I feel that D.O. fails. It disregards our personal Chi - our energy for making changes in our life.

[三江源]

.

Edited April 13, 2015 by 三江源

[三江源]

.

Edited April 13, 2015 by 三江源

[Marblehead]

If there is some apathy generated here by the notion of DO , then that is an issue of each individual, and their journey in relation to the Abyss and The Void. Not all heroes jump up and out the door on day 1 of their journey, a lot of them lie on the sofa for a long time staring out the window. Sometimes the whole journey is conducted on the sofa.. but yes, there has to be movement, internally.

 

Yes. That is what I am trying to prevent here. If the concept of D.O. is useful to an individual then, by all means, incorporate it into your belief system. If it is useless then just let it go and carry on.

 

And yes, we do need to get off the sofa in order to get anything done. Just reading the books won't help much unless you are just looking for reinforcement for what you arleady believe.

 

This is the same issue I used to encounter with college students when I used to teach classes on the works of Samuel Beckett. They would either find them utterly demotivating and incomprehensible, or beautiful, and liberating.

 

I think something similar was said about Nietzsche's work. You either love him or you hate him. No grey areas.

 

A person's response to 'Waiting for Godot' tells them where they are at on this topic..

 

I mention this to people who tell me that they are praying for solutions to their problems. Yes, it is fine to pray if that is what helps one along but after you finish praying you need to get up off your knees and do something about your problems. Without action there is nothing done. A body at rest remains at rest and all that stuff.

 

Is it funny, or tragic? Or both..or neither.. ultimately we carry on playing with the stones in our pocket.

 

Ah! Placing value on it. So hard to do. Long term I think it is neither. Short term (the term of our physical life) I think it is tragic that some people do not try to make a better life for themselves.

 

The changes that we make, shift the karmic cycle. This in itself is a motivator, I would have thought.

 

Exactly. That is what inspired me to make changes in my life.

 

(And BTW, I hope I am not presenting myself as someone who has no problems. There are still rememberances of the past where I screwed up bad and I am still paying inside for those errors. But I cannot change what has already happened. All I can do is deal with the 'now' and hope that my decisions of 'now' lead to a more peaceful and content tomorrow.)

[Ya Mu]

 

Have you been to some of the various heaven realms in meditation? Have you been into formless Samadhis beyond the body? Can you still your mind at will and then hear the chatter in other peoples minds?

 

You have hardly read many of my posts Ya Mu.

 

 

 

Ok, so you claim to know it, but you don't by your statement. There are a few forms of Ku Nye but it's definition is (Wylie: sku mnye), which literally means "massage of the subtle body". Part of the training in Ku Nye requires knowledge of the meridians or lung (winds/prana) channels.

 

Yes, it is energy based through the body. I know practitioners of it and one master of it, ChNNR's (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoches) sister.

I do often skim over your posts - and see the exact same thing written over and over. SO stuck in the mental realm. You moan and groan about Taoists being stuck with the physical while your thinking is exactly that, a mental loop that goes on over and over, with no Spiritual content. But I do know that you are not interested in knowing or learning anything and only come on here to preach. Of course some have said the same thing about me. But I don't ask anyone to believe one word I say, as everything becomes self-evident through the practice.

 

I really didn't wish to come onto a Buddhist thread and interject this but you have just kept on and on.

You remember what I said about the top of the mountain? AND the 3,600 schools of thoughts? Of course you don't as you have not listened - only talked. At the top of this holy BUDDHIST mountain, through much time&effort meditation, different schools of Buddhist thought were evaluated, compared, argued, and experienced. The same with Taoist thought. What was determined was that the mind is the most powerful thing that has been created here on this Earth. (I know you wished to hear that!) And that all the schools of thought exploring this powerful mind had gained much insight. And great things could be accomplished by continuously massaging the mind. Through contemplation many things would be revealed. But when all was said and done, they determined that the mind was also our greatest enemy, for it created a slave of the true inner core that resided within. That indeed, although oh-so-powerful, it was FINITE. They then took all the many things from Buddhist thought, and Taoist thought and Confucian thought, and Hindi thought that were profound and good and integrated into their system, and found worked hard at finding ways to completely bypass the mental realm AND DID SO. Helping to eliminate that oh-so-deadly trap of FINITE thought and experience. And know there are no links or books I can point you to.

 

So you and I are through here on this thread. Go ahead and say what you want - I am sure it will be another page of telling me that I don't understand, and that you know someone's uncle who knows a method that you personally don't understand because you don't know the difference between true energetics versus mental manipulation. And of course the statement that I don't understand is true. Unlike you I don't understand everything.

[Marblehead]

PS I'm not saying I think we are living in a big tv..

 

PPS Although I wouldnt rule out the possibility..

 

Hehehe. Another Buddhist (and others) concept, generally misrepresented, that I argue strongly against.

 

I hold to the reality of the Manifest. It is just as realy as all other aspects of the All (One).

 

That is where I sometimes talk about the states of 'wu' (the spiritual, or Mystery) and 'yo' (the physical, or Manifest).

 

They both are real.

 

Well, the TV is different. Hehehe.

 

Yes, I can understand your mom giving up on you with this one. Deep stuff for a little critter (you).

 

Of course, I rule out that possiblity regarding the TV. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

So you and I are through here on this thread. Go ahead and say what you want - I am sure it will be another page of telling me that I don't understand, and that you know someone's uncle who knows a method that you personally don't understand because you don't know the difference between true energetics versus mental manipulation. And of course the statement that I don't understand is true. Unlike you I don't understand everything.

 

Hehehe. No problem Ya Mu. I will stay here with him till the end. He knows that - we have done this before.

 

I did enjoy your attempts to get an answer to your question. There are answers - CowTao presented some nice answers. VJ tries. Have to give him credit for that. Not much credit for success though. Hehehe.

 

I don't even know if Songs' questions were answered.

 

But this concept is always a good discussion if we remember to not get emotional and personal about it all.

[XieJia]

I would like to claim that I am much of a Daoist as I am a Buddhist.

 

The further I walked on the path, the more I realized the less Dao belongs to the Daoists; and the less Dharmas belongs to the Buddhists.

 

Out of my arrogance, I feel that all dogmas and principles are deem to be misunderstood and misrepresent.

 

It can come in different shapes; swords, drums, ice cream, hammer, screw drivers, candles

or simply rotten frozen chickens.

But all are just tools as a means to the end; and once the end is reached, the tools are becomes useless.

 

People with different likings, backgrounds, different hands sizes would like to pick up different things through different methods where Some will fits one better than others. While some tools are given at birth, obtained, taught, or self-made .

 

To the extent that it is useful; is where it can transform and helps that individual lives for the better, helping the person to understand themselves and other around them better. Promoting a healthy ways of life and outlooks.

 

Out of my arrogance again; it is rather futile and useless for the people to be using these tools to smash out others' tools, or to be debating what is the right tool.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we want to conceptualize Dependent Origination:

 

Dependent Origination are there just to replace the two extremes of 'Determinism' and complete 'Free Will'.

 

Where due to the pre-existing karma which would have conditioned the nature of the occurring event and the ways in which the observer views the event in certain ways.

Conditioned Conditions

 

Hope what I wrote, would help those of you who are unfamiliar with this tools more.

 

For those who want to goes deeper; I would suggest 'Examining the cause of each event.' for it is what provides the way to liberation as described by so many ppl before.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the Big TV; I would like to have that. Imagine it with a home theatre system; should be nice.

As for the answer; I tend to disagree with the notion from my own experience.

I would like to encourage those that want to know to practice with diligence and obtain their own answer. Nothing else have quite the taste for something that you encounter yourself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wish you all Good luck on your journey.

XieJia

[ben]

The numbers are endless... but you might start with reading this...

The Eighty-four Mahasiddhas and the Path of Tantra

 

 

The number 84 is not based on any historical evidence.

 

.

Edited January 31, 2012 by ben

[Marblehead]

Another very nice post.

 

I especially like this:

 

But all are just tools as a means to the end; and once the end is reached, the tools are becomes useless.

 

Very Taoist. (Why else would I like it so much? Hehehe.)

[ralis]

You have no freakin' idea. You are not some form of omniscient god! You don't even know if I am drinking tea or coffee at this very moment. Actually, you 'know' much less than you think you do.

 

Your illusions and delusions are distorting your truths.

 

If Vajraji was as psychic as he claims to be, he wouldn't need to be riding his pedi bike all day. He would be making millions in the stock market. He could find a job with Goldman Sachs.

[ralis]

I would expect such a response from a mere intellectual without direct insight into spiritual truths and subtle energetic dimensions? Hmmmm...

 

Oh well. **** me then.

 

What gives cat the right to edit posts? This is censorship!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

Ah! You missed out on the "Death" thread. Too bad. We can't divert this thread for the purpose of discussing that concept (actually, death is a fact, not a concept).

 

Nah, it's a concept for those that have transcended the appearance of it.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

D.O. is the exact same thing as 'cause and effect'.

 

 

No, because it's missing emptiness.

[Vajrahridaya]

Not many here have understood directly the implications of "infinite regress" because most of you apply a true and self standing essence to everything which is Alpha and Omega...

 

Not Buddhist.

[3bob]

I do often skim over your posts - and see the exact same thing written over and over. SO stuck in the mental realm. You moan and groan about Taoists being stuck with the physical while your thinking is exactly that, a mental loop that goes on over and over, with no Spiritual content. But I do know that you are not interested in knowing or learning anything and only come on here to preach. Of course some have said the same thing about me. But I don't ask anyone to believe one word I say, as everything becomes self-evident through the practice.

 

I really didn't wish to come onto a Buddhist thread and interject this but you have just kept on and on.

You remember what I said about the top of the mountain? AND the 3,600 schools of thoughts? Of course you don't as you have not listened - only talked. At the top of this holy BUDDHIST mountain, through much time&effort meditation, different schools of Buddhist thought were evaluated, compared, argued, and experienced. The same with Taoist thought. What was determined was that the mind is the most powerful thing that has been created here on this Earth. (I know you wished to hear that!) And that all the schools of thought exploring this powerful mind had gained much insight. And great things could be accomplished by continuously massaging the mind. Through contemplation many things would be revealed. But when all was said and done, they determined that the mind was also our greatest enemy, for it created a slave of the true inner core that resided within. That indeed, although oh-so-powerful, it was FINITE. They then took all the many things from Buddhist thought, and Taoist thought and Confucian thought, and Hindi thought that were profound and good and integrated into their system, and found worked hard at finding ways to completely bypass the mental realm AND DID SO. Helping to eliminate that oh-so-deadly trap of FINITE thought and experience. And know there are no links or books I can point you to.

 

So you and I are through here on this thread. Go ahead and say what you want - I am sure it will be another page of telling me that I don't understand, and that you know someone's uncle who knows a method that you personally don't understand because you don't know the difference between true energetics versus mental manipulation. And of course the statement that I don't understand is true. Unlike you I don't understand everything.

 

Indeed. There is Truth and Joy (without the mental opposites of untruth and sorrow) - that springs forth - and it can never be packaged or limited by any realms of mind.

 

Om

[Vajrahridaya]

If Vajraji was as psychic as he claims to be, he wouldn't need to be riding his pedi bike all day.

 

ignorance manifest from one that has no idea what it's like. Ya really don't.

 

Balancing virtue, telepathy and energetic psychic-ness as well as self investigation?

Edited February 7, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

ignorance manifest from one that has no idea what it's like. Ya really don't.

 

I guess you want to be a victim of DO as opposed to using your talents to take care of yourself. What are you afraid of? Perhaps you have no psychic powers!

[Vajrahridaya]

I guess you want to be a victim of DO as opposed to using your talents to take care of yourself. What are you afraid of? Perhaps you have no psychic powers!

 

Ok dude... whatever makes you feel better about your perspective.

[ralis]

ignorance manifest from one that has no idea what it's like. Ya really don't.

 

Balancing virtue, telepathy and energetic psychic-ness as well as self investigation.

 

What is so virtuous about riding a pedi bike all day?

[Vajrahridaya]

What is so virtuous about riding a pedi bike all day?

 

Maybe you should try it some day? See how you can apply virtue to it's quality of service?